Native American Christianity

[pottersclay]

Hello brother Didy, I have somewhat to say about your topics. Both my wives (of 36 years combined) were of the Cherokee Tribe. Talk about injustice, have you ever heard about the "Trail of Tears?" Look it up, it was a very infamous move by our government to relocate the Cherokees in the South. Many Native Americans didn't believe in land ownership, and therefore their customs were incompatible with the settlers.

No so with the Cherokee. They intermarried with the whites, homesteaded farmlands and basically blended right in with the populace. When the Indian Territory was established, many people resented the Cherokee's presence in the fertile South. Then came the land grab, that is all it was. They were forcibly removed with what they could cart off and their land was taken. It didn’t help that gold was discovered in Georgia about then.

They were marched from Georgia, Tennessee, North Carolina, and Alabama into holding camps in Tennessee. From there they were marched North through Kentucky into Southern Illinois right in the dead of winter. There is when most of the deaths occurred.

They started the march with 13,000 Cherokees and lost about 4,000 due to disease, starvation and frostbite. Many renown men of the day opposed Andrew Jackson’s plan to displace these people. I think a lot had to do with the fact that they intermarried with blacks. We know how most Southerners view that. Most of them had Anglo names by that time. They are known as one of the Five Civilized Tribes that had no real reason for their removal. They are still fighting this in the courtrooms today.

This same story happens again and again, when the white man wants what was given to the Indians. The Black Hills of South Dakota was given to the Sioux until gold was discovered there. I am ashamed that the people that perpetrated these atrocities called themselves Christians.

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It was silver in the Black hills not gold.

 

[Didymous]

They are no different than any other nation with their own cultures. When Jesus came, he did not bring culture, but instead salvation to all. He treats everybody the same. the rich, the poor, the weak ,the strong. There is not a gospel for each nation. The same one gospel for all. Holding grudges of past history will not get you into the kingdom of God.

Why are you trying to attribute things to me I never said? I hold no grudges for past offenses; I exhort all to help with the present ones! People like you, perhaps, are telling me if I use smudge, or a drum, or a sweat lodge, that I'm promoting another gospel. This is a lie, and there is no biblical basis for it. Look past your own prejudices, and see that my "grudge" is not for what was, but rather what is-and ought not to be so.

 

[Zmouth]

Indeed man came to the America's by a land bridge that was once there but sea levels rose and closed it off, oddly enough giraffe's didn't come from Africa but North America and parts of Asia that migrated to Africa.

Can't say I agree with the hypothesis that man came to the Americas by a land bridge between Alaska and Russia since I hold that those who came to the America's where carried here by Pharaoh's ship to escape the flood of violence which would destroy all flesh in whose nostrils was the breath of life.

In such, the population that now inhabit that area which is believed to have been the area of the land bridge reflect the offspring of those to the west and those who migrated up from the Americas.

 

[Deade]

Ok, a quick question. What do you think of Native American Christians using the sweat lodge, dance regalia, sweet grass, sage, mugwort(the last three items are used as smudge{incense}; hand drums, and pow-wow drums?

I have found that many of these tribal customs are part of religious beliefs. One of chasing away evil spirits with smoke, I will not participate in. One would have to ask about the religious aspect to each practice and let the HS guide you.

 

[Didymous]

Can't say I agree with the hypothesis that man came to the Americas by a land bridge between Alaska and Russia since I hold that those who came to the America's where carried here by Pharaoh's ship to escape the flood of violence which would destroy all flesh in whose nostrils was the breath of life.

In such, the population that now inhabit that area which is believed to have been the area of the land bridge reflect the offspring of those to the west and those who migrated up from the Americas.

I have to say I've never heard that one before. Thanks for sharing, sir.

 

[Didymous]

I have found that many of these tribal customs are part of religious beliefs. One of chasing away evil spirits with smoke, I will not participate in. One would have to ask about the religious aspect to each practice and let the HS guide you.

Not for Christians, sir. That was the whole point of my question.

 

[Didymous]

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It was silver in the Black hills not gold.

I've had food friends that were Cherokee.

 

[garee]

How are you doing d as a witness for Christ.....do they consider you a outcast???

Which they? Not all Israel is of the spirit born again Israel or the new name God named His bride, as Christian . This includes all the nations of the world. One is one as a new creation inwardly not according to the flesh of any nation. God is not a man as us .

 

[Didymous]

One item I forgot to mention was dance regalia. Some Natives I know do this, as they consider wearing their best clothes to church as honoring God. I believe this is also a common tradition in some Baptist Churches.

 

[Didymous]

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It was silver in the Black hills not gold.

Osiyo. Thanks for sharing, sir. I've had some wonderful friends that were Cherokee. My first wife swore she was from one of the five civilized tribes.

 

[Didymous]

How are you doing d as a witness for Christ.....do they consider you a outcast???

Yes, a lot of them do. I have seen some hearts changing.

 

[Zmouth]

I never made any such claims, sir. I spoke of why Christianity is so hated, and strongly resisted, by Native Americans. Unless you seek to defend who misrepresented Christianity to Natives, I don't see your point.

The point being that native infers place of origin, since no man originated from the Americas then it would be a contradiction to claim to be a native American unless one believes that man originated from the Americas. So does the mere fact that people migrated to America and have lived a long time make them indigenous, being their place of origin, and if so then how long does it take to turn a lie into the truth.

So yes, I can easily understand why the Americans who encountered those who were migrating to the Americas since reflected a different set of values than those held by the current inhabitants.

 

[Zmouth]

I have to say I've never heard that one before. Thanks for sharing, sir.

Many haven't but in 2005 they begin searching the coasts of the Red Sea of evidence that Pharaoh had a harbor or any such evidence of ship building being inhabitants of what is considered desert.

Beginning in January 2005, excavations at Gawasis under the direction of Kathryn Bard(Boston University) and Rodolfo Fattovich (University of Naples ‘L’Orientale’) revealedcomplete and reworked ship timbers as well as thousands of wood fragments. Thesefragments were created when ancient workers disassembled ships whose shipworm-riddledtimbers suggest substantial sea journeys. Mersa Gawasis is the modern name of the ancientpharaonic port of Saww on the Red Sea, about 24km (14mi) south of Safaga. It is the mouthof Wadi Gawasis, now silted in, but once a protected lagoon

Then again, a ship set adrift from the Red Sea would be carried by the current and trade winds down to the Indian Oceans, and carried around the Cape and up the western coast of Africa where it would travel across the Atlantic to the Americas. Since the scriptures tell of the altar that was to be built, one can locate where they landed.

 

[Didymous]

The point being that native infers place of origin, since no man originated from the Americas then it would be a contradiction to claim to be a native American unless one believes that man originated from the Americas. So does the mere fact that people migrated to America and have lived a long time make them indigenous, being their place of origin, and if so then how long does it take to turn a lie into the truth.

So yes, I can easily understand why the Americans who encountered those who were migrating to the Americas since reflected a different set of values than those held by the current inhabitants.

Do you actually have anything specific to my points, or are you just here to represent those "different" values?

 

[Didymous]

To the Romans Paul became as a Roman; to the Jews, as a Jew. To the native Americans Didymous became as a native American.

I'm not sure how you meant that, but it struck me as funny. Thanks for the good laugh!

 

[Gabriel2020]

My Grand Mother was full blooded Cherokee, and my Grand Father White Irish. I know whats going on.

 

[Didymous]

Regarding the Issue of Native Americans having a natural bias toward Christianity:



1. I think, as Didymous mentioned, the real point of philosophical contact is through physical contact... you have to SHOW them real Christianity, and SHOW them real Christian love.


2. I think after making a personal impact on them through personal contact, and showing them real christian love... you then STILL have to deal with some serious apologetic issues. You have to ANSWER their philosophical dilemmas.


3. I'm not an expert on Native Americans, but I think the general framework would be the same as when working with other people groups. (You first show them real love, then you answer the hard questions with real answers.)

A. Dealing with racism:
You need to move their focus from sins of racism, to sin in general... you need to help them see racism is only a "symptom" of a much deeper problem.

- You need to move them, emotionally, past the racism they've had to suffer, and help them to see racism isn't the real enemy, but racism is just a SYMPTOM of the real enemy. The real enemy is sin... something all people have in common.

- You might point to atrocities BETWEEN TRIBES, and use that to help identify that SIN is the real problem, and that racism (and tribalism) is just a manifestations of this deeper problem.

- Through pointing to sins occurring in tribal conflict, the point is NOT to minimize anything the U.S. govt has perpetrated, but rather, it is simply to shift the focus from SYMPTOMS (racism) to the UNDERLYING PROBLEM (sin).
(You want to say,
"Yes, the Europeans did all these bad things, truly, but wait, we've also done bad things to each other... WHY IS THAT? WHAT IS THE REAL PROBLEM? And why were some Europeans evil while other's were virtuous... WHY? What's really going on?"
- You need to push them beyond the simple paradigm of racism, so they have to look at the underlying problem.)


B. Dealing with Christianity:
You need to defend "Biblical" Christianity, and show that what some so-called Christians have done, is NOT Biblical Christianity, and has NOTHING TO DO with:
1) the Bible
2) God's commands and intentions
3) sincere, genuine Christians

- There are a number of approaches here, and a number of ways to go at this.

- You'd need to think through the different ways this can be approached, and then use the method that would best resonate in the culture.


4. I'm not an expert on Native American culture, but I think this general method is Biblical, and is effective in most cultures.
A. You show them real Christian love
B. Then you give REAL answers to their philosophical dilemmas... you have to give real answers to the hard questions.



Conclusion:
- This is what missionaries do.
- If you want to be a missionary to your own people, or if you want to be a missionary to another people, this is just what missionaries do.
- You show them genuine Christian love, then give a lot of very deep thought to how you best answer their philosophical dilemmas in a way they can understand.
- This inherently means you can't teach them anything until you first love them, and spend a lot of time listening to them.

I don't remember if I responded to your post before, but I saw some things I missed the first time. My point initially was that the first wave of missionaries did a poor job of your most excellent list, and that even some in the current wave are focusing on supposed sycretism-rayjer than what you said. And, as always, there's the issue of who is recruiting, if Christian churches aren't. There are six "churches" in my home town (four of which are arguably Christian). The only ones sharing some "gospel" are the Mormons and the JWs. Again, it ought not to be so!

 

[Didymous]

My Grand Mother was full blooded Cherokee, and my Grand Father White Irish. I know whats going on.

Maybe you do, sir, but I wouldn't know it from what you post.

 

[Deade]

One item I forgot to mention was dance regalia. Some Natives I know do this, as they consider wearing their best clothes to church as honoring God. I believe this is also a common tradition in some Baptist Churches.

I have that custom also. I will not wear jeans and tennis shoes to church. I feel like I am presenting myself to God. I don't judge others for not believing as I do. I do many little things differently for God's sake. I think he notices.

All my children--natural, step and adopted are part Cherokee. My first wife's family helped me get established in Oklahoma from the mean streets of Los Angeles. The NDNS, as you put it, are my family now.

 

[Didymous]

I have that custom also. I will not wear jeans and tennis shoes to church. I feel like I am presenting myself to God. I don't judge others for not believing as I do. I do many little things differently for God's sake. I think he notices.

All my children--natural, step and adopted are part Cherokee. My first wife's family helped me get established in Oklahoma from the mean streets of Los Angeles. The NDNS, as you put it, are my family now.

Yep, you're an NDN now! Poor guy!