Not By Works

Zmouth · May 8, 2018

That's a good one. You admit that you were claiming what you taught was what you had learned of God and was telling people it was, but it wasn't.

NoNameMcgee said:

I will venture to say that now the Holy Spirit dwells in you right?

NoNameMcgee said:

Like Genesis Genesis 6:3?

TruthTalk · May 8, 2018

star said:

Very nice post Star. I agree, "works is not the evidence of salvation", the Apostle Paul said,
"It is the Lord who Judges me," 1Corinthians4:3

"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children." Romans8:16

God bless

NoNameMcgee · May 8, 2018

Zmouth said:

well i claimed i studied enough to know whats what
and tell others whats what

but even then i did have some confusion that i was aware of

the doctrine i believed most would call "sinless perfection"

so i thought the Holy spirit came and went

i had very little if any assurance i was even saved

i just counted myself as wise

absolutely

no question

it may have before but i constantly quenched it through rejecting the truth if it did at all

anyways

now i can say for sure i have been born again

where as before i would have said im not sure most days

i believe every verse in the bible is 100% true

including genesis 6:3

though many will take it out of context to say it means things it does not.....

hey by the way
forgive me if i mistake you for someone else

arent you the one who said it is possible aliens made men?

or there is some hidden meaning behind the bibles explination of creation?

my memory isnt perfect but i feel like you are

eternally-gratefull · May 8, 2018

GandalfTheWhite said:

You should actually read the reply from gNp and then do research on the worms he mentioned there. I could only find one website stating that the worms from pork meat can be treated, the rest of them openly admits that there are no treatment for the worms and it would take up to 25 years for the worms to die in your body. Yes, some of the other worms are also dangerous but nothing compared to what we find in our pig friends. The heat we prepare the meat on is also not high enough to kill the worms in pork meat (fact).

Then we have the following verses in the Bible that should at least ignite a little flame somewhere inside all of us:
Isa 65:2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people,which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;
Isa 65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
Isa65:4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;

I look at pauls words, where he chastened peter for not eating because he was afraid to eat certain foods afraid to offend jews.

I will say this, if you think it is sin to eat, then by all means it is sin to you, but i would not judge others, Nor should i judge you for not eating,

eternally-gratefull · May 8, 2018

Zmouth said:

Notwithstanding thou mayest kill and eat flesh in all thy gates, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee: the unclean and the clean may eat thereof, as of the roebuck, and as of the hart.
Deut 12:15

So why do you call it a sin if not of the law yet if not of the law then it would be of faith.

20 When the LORD thy God shall enlarge thy border, as he hath promised thee, and thou shalt say, I will eat flesh, because thy soul longeth to eat flesh; thou mayest eat flesh, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after.

21 If the place which the LORD thy God hath chosen to put his name there be too far from thee, then thou shalt kill of thy herd and of thy flock, which the LORD hath given thee, as I have commanded thee, and thou shalt eat in thy gates whatsoever thy soul lusteth after.
Deut 12:20-21

not sure what your trying to say here, sorry..

Zmouth · May 8, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

fair enough, was simply saying that the LORD never forbade man to eat pork, which is evident by the word of the LORD is forever settled in heaven, therefore if law forbade it then only the law can permit it, which he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Rom 14:23

posthuman · May 8, 2018

Zmouth said:

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law
(Romans 2:12)

Romans 7:8 doesn't say there is no such thing as sin apart from law; it says sin is dead apart from the law. again in 1 Corinthians 15:56 - "the power of sin is the law"

Zmouth · May 8, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

Actually it was Jesus who said "If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth." but yes, I did titled a thread to the effect of what if man was created by aliens" yet if one is familiar with a 'hook' in writing then they would understand not to judge a thread by it title send the the thread simply asked if the reader would answer the question of what number they saw to demonstrate the paradox of evolution and creation. Which interestingly enough, nobody would answer. Yet also presented that an noted evolutionist who claimed that man on earth evolved acknowledged the possibility, which in effect was an acknowledgment that the evidence does not prove that man evolved if one could believe that it was possible man didn't evolve.

Zmouth · May 8, 2018

posthuman said:

How does one sin apart from the law if sin is the transgression of the law?

Since death is the result of natural law which the Bible even says there is a time to be born and a time to die, then the universe having a beginning is believed to have an end which Jesus even testified that heaven and earth shall pass away.

Since that which has a beginning of life will also have a end of life according to the law, and the eternal does not change form nor nature since to change form would mean the end of one form and the beginning of the other and to change nature would mean the truth could become a lie which is impossible. And if what is believed is true is discovered to be a lie doesn't mean it the lie was ever the truth. See 1 John 2:21)

I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

VCO · May 8, 2018

GandalfTheWhite said:

FALSE STATEMENT ONE:

So you believe in the ABLIB Bible?

Exodus 19:1-9 (ASV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] In the third month after the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And when they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the wilderness of Sinai, they encamped in the wilderness; and there Israel encamped before the mount.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And Moses went up unto God, and Jehovah called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel:
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine:
[SUP]6 [/SUP] and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which Jehovah commanded him.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And all the people answered together, and said, All that Jehovah hath spoken we will do. And Moses reported the words of the people unto Jehovah.

Exodus 31:12-18 (NJB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Yahweh then said to Moses,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] ‘Speak to the Israelites and say, “You will keep my Sabbaths properly, for this is a sign between myself and you for all your generations to come, so that you will know that it is I, Yahweh, who sanctify you.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] You will keep the Sabbath, then; you will regard it as holy. Anyone who profanes it will be put to death; anyone who does any work on that day will be outlawed from his people.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Work must be done for six days, but the seventh day will be a day of complete rest, consecrated to Yahweh. Anyone who works on the Sabbath day will be put to death.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The Israelites will keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath for all their generations to come: this is an eternal covenant.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Between myself and the Israelites, this is a sign for ever, for in six days Yahweh made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day he rested and drew breath.” '
[SUP]18 [/SUP] When he had finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.

FALSE STATEMENT TWO:

DREAM ON.

Genesis 17:5 (CSBBible)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Your name will no longer be Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I will make you the father of many nations.

FALSE STATEMENT THREE:

HOW COME GOD CALLS US GENTILES, and DIFFERENTIATES BETWEEN JEWS that Believe AND GENTILES that Believe WHICH WILL BECOME ONE FLOCK WHEN THE JESUS COMES BACK TO GATHER HIS ASSEMBLY?

John 10:16 (ESV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

HE is talking to the last of the OLD TESTAMENT SHEEP (TRUE BELIEVERS). The OTHER SHEEP NOT OF THIS FOLD, is US the NEW TESTAMENT ASSEMBLY. Two thing you need to understand, the word CHURCH is not in the NEW TESTAMENT, they coined the phrase because that was the term they were calling theyselves when the when Church-age began. What Jesus LITERALLY SAID, was "I will built my Assembly", so it is the SAME PHRASE AS HE CALLED THE TRUE JEWISH BELIEVERS. You can look that up. I believe the first ASSEMBLY member was ADAM, and the ASSEMBLY HE IS BUILDING will Not be complete until Last BELIEVER of the NEW TESTAMENT receives JESUS AS LORD.

Romans 3:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] What then? Are we any better? Not at all! For we have previously charged that both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin,

Romans 9:23-24 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And ⌊what if⌋ He did this to make known the riches of His glory on objects of mercy that He prepared beforehand for glory—
[SUP]24 [/SUP] on us, the ones He also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Romans 15:27 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Yes, they were pleased, and indeed are indebted to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in their spiritual benefits, then they are obligated to minister to Jews in material needs.

1 Corinthians 1:23 (CSBBible)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 2:7 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews.

SO WHY DOES PAUL KEEP CALLING US GENTILE BELIEVERS? I AM A GENTILE BELIEVER, and my DNA test came back with Scotch/Irish, English, Norwegian, German, and Bohemian blood in my DNA. Your Ridiculous Theory that we are all HEBREWS holds NO WATER, like this BUCKETT.

Let me guess, You Got that ridiculous theory from one of Ellen G. White's books?

posthuman · May 8, 2018

Zmouth said:

yes! we have to look into such questions

it comes from 1 John 3:4, and 1 John 3:4 says everyone who practices sin also practices "anomia" and sin is "anomia"
this word is translated as "lawlessness" and "iniquity" and "disobedience" and "unrighteousness" -- and some Bibles put the phrase "transgression of the Law" here in 1 John 3:4 for this one single word. but there aren't actually 3 words, transgress, of, and law. just "sin is the anomia" which has the connotation, yes.

is John giving an exhaustive definition of sin here? elsewhere it's written that whatever is not of faith is sin - is that exhaustive? do the two definitions overlap, do they completely coincide?

is there anything not strictly 'illegal' that's not of faith?

Zmouth said:

death entered the world through sin. it's only true that death entered through law if sin is only specifically lawbreaking.

did Cain have a specific command, 'do not murder' ?
it's not in scripture, if he did. we'd have to add it to scripture -- and some do. are they correct to?

Zmouth said:

the beginning of life, for me, came when my own ended in Him -
this life, the life that is in Him, does not end

Zmouth · May 8, 2018

posthuman said:

Since the eternal has no beginning nor end, anything which has a beginning would have and end, since it is not eternal by virtue of the fact it had a beginning. And thus, anything which is not eternal will have an end, seeing that the eternal only would have no end.

So it would be false that death entered the world by transgression of the law since the law is that has a beginning of life will have an end of life. Thus, death does not come from the transgression of the law but rather is the fulfillment of the law.

And in such, if one has faith that death is not the result of sin, then would not seek the promise by the law but by faith while if believes death is the result of sin, being the transgression of the law then one would have to seek the promise by works of the law.

Thus, sin is also the transgression of the law.

Shamah · May 9, 2018

Shamah said:

posthuman said:

His Law in the heart at minimum means that person will love and desire to do as it says... Does not mean they will be perfect, but they will seek to follow His ways, not seek to find ways not to...

I can tell you what it does not mean.

It does not mean those who have His Law written on their heart will;

call it a burden

say it’s not for them

reject it

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 11:27-30, "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father. And no one fully knows the Son except the Father, neither does anyone fully know the Father, except the Son and those whom YHWH wills the Son to reveal. Come to Me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light"[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."[/FONT]

Shamah said:

GandalfTheWhite · May 9, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

I look at it this way, God does not put us under bondage, it is outside of His character. So if He told us not to eat something I will do it, not because I am afraid to sin but it is required of me in my relationship with God. With limited research we will find that pork meat is actually bad for you so I trust God I am not missing out on something good

I don't judge anybody for eating anything I simply state what is in our manual from the mouth of God

Cee · May 9, 2018

Faith makes us righteous before God.
Works reveals our faith to all of His Creation.

In this way, faith is made complete by our works.

Notice James says "show me your faith"... and "I'll show you my faith by my works".

He's talking about what he sees and what we see. Not what God sees. God see's the heart, we don't see the heart like He does. He already knows we have, but it's our works that reveal it to everyone else. And also make it "profitable" for people around us.

Even in James' example we see Abraham already had faith, but his faith was perfected by his actions.

James 2:21Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did.

GandalfTheWhite · May 9, 2018

VCO said:

FALSE STATEMENT ONE:

So you believe in the ABLIB Bible?

Exodus 19:1-9 (ASV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] In the third month after the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And when they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the wilderness of Sinai, they encamped in the wilderness; and there Israel encamped before the mount.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And Moses went up unto God, and Jehovah called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel:
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine:
[SUP]6 [/SUP] and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which Jehovah commanded him.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And all the people answered together, and said, All that Jehovah hath spoken we will do. And Moses reported the words of the people unto Jehovah.

Exodus 31:12-18 (NJB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Yahweh then said to Moses,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] ‘Speak to the Israelites and say, “You will keep my Sabbaths properly, for this is a sign between myself and you for all your generations to come, so that you will know that it is I, Yahweh, who sanctify you.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] You will keep the Sabbath, then; you will regard it as holy. Anyone who profanes it will be put to death; anyone who does any work on that day will be outlawed from his people.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Work must be done for six days, but the seventh day will be a day of complete rest, consecrated to Yahweh. Anyone who works on the Sabbath day will be put to death.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The Israelites will keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath for all their generations to come: this is an eternal covenant.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Between myself and the Israelites, this is a sign for ever, for in six days Yahweh made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day he rested and drew breath.” '
[SUP]18 [/SUP] When he had finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.

FALSE STATEMENT TWO:

DREAM ON.

Genesis 17:5 (CSBBible)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Your name will no longer be Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I will make you the father of many nations.

FALSE STATEMENT THREE:

HOW COME GOD CALLS US GENTILES, and DIFFERENTIATES BETWEEN JEWS that Believe AND GENTILES that Believe WHICH WILL BECOME ONE FLOCK WHEN THE JESUS COMES BACK TO GATHER HIS ASSEMBLY?

John 10:16 (ESV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

HE is talking to the last of the OLD TESTAMENT SHEEP (TRUE BELIEVERS). The OTHER SHEEP NOT OF THIS FOLD, is US the NEW TESTAMENT ASSEMBLY. Two thing you need to understand, the word CHURCH is not in the NEW TESTAMENT, they coined the phrase because that was the term they were calling theyselves when the when Church-age began. What Jesus LITERALLY SAID, was "I will built my Assembly", so it is the SAME PHRASE AS HE CALLED THE TRUE JEWISH BELIEVERS. You can look that up. I believe the first ASSEMBLY member was ADAM, and the ASSEMBLY HE IS BUILDING will Not be complete until Last BELIEVER of the NEW TESTAMENT receives JESUS AS LORD.

Romans 3:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] What then? Are we any better? Not at all! For we have previously charged that both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin,

Romans 9:23-24 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And ⌊what if⌋ He did this to make known the riches of His glory on objects of mercy that He prepared beforehand for glory—
[SUP]24 [/SUP] on us, the ones He also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Romans 15:27 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Yes, they were pleased, and indeed are indebted to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in their spiritual benefits, then they are obligated to minister to Jews in material needs.

1 Corinthians 1:23 (CSBBible)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 2:7 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews.

SO WHY DOES PAUL KEEP CALLING US GENTILE BELIEVERS? I AM A GENTILE BELIEVER, and my DNA test came back with Scotch/Irish, English, Norwegian, German, and Bohemian blood in my DNA. Your Ridiculous Theory that we are all HEBREWS holds NO WATER, like this BUCKETT.

Let me guess, You Got that ridiculous theory from one of Ellen G. White's books?

VCO by typing in bold does not give you a stronger argument so if you want to discuss something you are more than welcome to do so.

First of all you have to back up just I little (not out of my face, but) to Exodus 12 where it clearly states that a mixed multitude went with Israel on the exodus:

Exo 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

If we understand Torah (and we should) we will also understand that when you allow somebody into your house they become part of your household, so it would be easy to understand why the Bible did not always refer to the mixed multitude at Sinai because they became part of Israel.

Your second point refers:
Do you know the meaning of the word Hebrew? Hebrew means to cross over. Abram crossed over into the promise of God and became Abraham (the Hebrew). What I said was that when we are in Christ we will all cross over and as a matter of fact we are all Hebrews because we crossed over into Jesus. Hope this make more sense?

Your third pointrefers:
Congratulations, you just figured out that the Jews and the Gentiles are not the same but what about Israel? You cannot be a Jew without being Israel but you can be Israel without being a Jew.

Between you and me,I am not a Seventh Day Adventist.

God bless brother and I hope the water in your bucket will be used to give life to God’s seeds in your heart.

dcontroversal · May 9, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

i do agree many here consider themself as wise

while not even knowing what it truely means to be born again

people who push doctrine of men

people who know of the law

but have no idea of what grace truely is

i was one of these

puffed up chest

nose held high

ready to teach anyone anything

God broke the false doctrine of sinless perfection from me....

even though i had read the bible over and over
i still was in error

and i couldnt see it

but one night ..... i prayed to God
to open my eyes

to deliver me from any sort of itching ear i may have had

to show me the truth

to deliver me from lies

no matter how much i hate it
no matter how much of a fool i will look like having pointed so many people to the false doctrine i may have believed

please just show me what He wanted me to see....

it wasnt over night...

it was followed by a lot more go throughs of scripture

a lot more prayer.... a lot of crying.... like a helpless baby

well God has now revealed to me the truth

He truely will provide what we ask according to His will

the scriptures completely opened up in a whole new way
there is no confusion..

anyways

i do believe being open to learn is important

but i cannot unlearn what He has revealed to me

it is absolutely true....

i am far from all knowing

but i know some things that cannot be desputed

I remember those days well migo....how many rounds did we go hahahah...

posthuman · May 9, 2018

Shamah said:

But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”
(Acts 15:8)

the subject sure seems to be ordering Gentiles to keep the Law described in the books of Moses

Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
(Acts 15:10)

Peter calls it an unbearable yoke

For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements..
(Acts 15:28)

James, speaking for the consensus of the whole council, alludes to it as 'a burden'

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
(Galatians 5:1)

Paul here calls something 'a yoke of slavery' -- what is he talking about? we'll continue reading:

Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.
(Galatians 5:2-3)

hmm.

[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]

so why do Peter, James & Paul speak this way?
James even speaking for the consensus of the whole Jerusalem congregation - saying explicitly that it is by the council of the Holy Spirit that they do not lay the 'burden' of circumcision and the Law of Moses on gentiles who are coming to faith?

would you contend that Peter, James, Paul, all those in agreement in Jerusalem -- these do not have His law written in their hearts? or are they talking about something other than the Law of the Covenant in Exodus/Leviticus/Deuteronomy/Numbers ?

are you in agreement with Studyman here? do you think that even though they quite clearly say "the Law of Moses" what they're really talking about isn't the Law of Moses at all, but pharisetical traditions which were never binding on anyone, ever, in the sight of God?
or is Galatians and Acts 15 actually talking about what it actually says?

we can quote Psalm 119 all day - yes! but what do we do with Galatians?

posthuman · May 9, 2018

And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
(1 Corinthians 9:20-21)

the apostle clearly makes a distinction here between being under "the law" and being under the law of Christ.
being under Christ, he is free to make himself as though under "the law" to those who are under it.
being under Christ, he is free to make himself as though "without law" to those who are without it.
this does not make him "without law" in the sight of God.

so i wonder if when when God says He will put His law in our hearts and minds, is He speaking about the law He gave through Moses? from this text, it appears that is not the meaning. there is a law, if this is the case, which is God's law, which isn't the one written in Moses.

Studyman will say, when the scripture says "law" it doesn't mean "law" it means 'purely human pharisetical traditions'
that's an explanation, yes, but it seems plain that it is not a viable one. why does scripture say "law" if it really means 'traditions that are not and never were binding in the sight of God' ? if we take Studyman's explanation, we find ourselves quickly in the position of re-writing the Bible to fit our own tradition, redefining & replacing its words with ones that are more palatable to our view.

GandalfTheWhite · May 9, 2018

posthuman said:

Posthuman, lets look at these verses from the Torah and maybe we can find some answers.

Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

The circumcision of our hearts is not a NT concept and God gave us this verse already in Deuteronomy. So what was the Pharisees pushing? Oral Torah.

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

In Acts 15:28 he is referring to (you might see a pattern here) oral Torah because verse 29 is basically a summary of written Torah. The greater burden is oral Torah my friend, and the problem with the oral Torah is even though they might mean well it is impossible to live it and it is not from God.

What is Paul referring to in Galatians 5 when said we are obligated to keep the whole law. It is important to understand that for a Jew there is no difference between written and oral Torah. For them law is law but they say that oral Torah is more relevant than written Torah because it was written for the times they are living in. When Paul refers to the whole law he is referring to oral and written Torah because to a Jew that is the whole law.The whole law is not only the first five books of the TaNaKh.

Paul kept on keeping the written Torah so that would make him a hypocrite by today’s standards.

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Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member