Not By Works

TruthTalk · May 6, 2018

You raise a very important point.
It's easy to look at passages you have mentioned and take it out of context.

But as a man who fell foul of this I can understand how easy it is to fall foul.

There are many reasons why people do, and to be honest I do not feel its intentional.

My having to work hard in order to be loved and accepted was based on my life's experiences.
I must work harder, harder and harder.
If I fell foul then God was gonna come down on me like a ton of bricks.
A beating was coming and at some point God was gonna say "You stupid ########, it's no wonder I don't love you, I only accept you because of my son Jesus, of only you could be like him, then I know you love me"

Now that was my thoughts based on life's experiences. And that is shocking, but was real to me.

Now I have been set free from that, not fully but still working through the old deep rooted mindset.

Now what at me free?

When I read Jesus saying "God loves me as much as he him"
I questioned myself as to did I love God and Jesus, because after all I wasn't perfect.
I spent the first 28 years of my Christian life thinking I'd committed the unforgivable sin.

So it easy to fall into the trap to work hard in order to be loved, accepted and saved.

Jesus said "If you love me, you will"

When I think of my kids.
Do they obey to still be my kids?
No they do not.
They obey because they love me.
They don't get it right all of the time but they still know they are my kids and I am their dad.

So our works should always be based on "Because we love" nothing more or nothing less.

We are saved by faith unto good works.

When Jesus seperates the sheep and goats the sheep are those whose works are those based on love.

We do not do works to be saved or loved, we do works because we are loved and saved.

His love in us outworking to others.

If we could work our way to heaven then Jesus would have said so.

But he did not.

He said believe in me for the forgiveness of sins, reconciliation to the Father through faith in him.
As a result works will follow.

People works do not save.
Faith in Jesus for forgiveness of sins save and as a result works will follow and fruit will grow.

Look at the concourse between Jesus and Peter when Jesus restored him.

The first 2 times Jesus asked Peter "Do you Agape me?
Peter responded twice with "I Phileo you"
To which the 3rd time Jesus used Phileo and Peter gets upset.

The point is that Peter went on to good works, growing from Phileo to Agape.

Works based in love.

Hi BillG, thank you for sharing, my dad was an atheist, so when I told him one day that I had 2 Fathers an earthly dad and a Heavenly Father, he just laughed in my face.

After being held captive to a false system of beliefs, you must really understand well the people who are in the same place. Were you set free from this in an instance or was it over a period of months or years. I would like to know what brought you out of this world of uncertainty and darkness. What one thing do you attribute to your being set free, the leading of the Holy Spirit without doubt.

God bless you BillG, you have an amazing testimony.

gb9 · May 6, 2018

Studyman said:

let me give you an example - let's say that you owned a business, and I was your chief supervisor. you told me- tell the employees " take lunch from 12: 00 to 1:00.

then, I go and tell them " lunch is from 12:00 to 1:00. so, everyone is to work until 12:00, and has to be working again at 1:00. no one is to be in the break room until 12: 05 and has to be out by 12:55. if one leaves , they have to be back by 12:50."

so, I just added a bunch of polices that you did not say. your intent was to give your employees a nice lunch break, and stay fresh and do good work. I made it more stressful by my intent to enforce that policy.

this is what scholars and historians tell us the Pharisees did.

benhur · May 6, 2018

dcontroversal said:

I would not call Abraham's obedience to God's voice, and keeping His charge, and his commandments, and his statures and His laws some kind of drivel. These are the words of God from the bible. You may call them drivel, I do not.

In fact, you have said that it was Abraham who, because of his belief in God, it was imputed upon him as righteousness. And somehow you use that concept to create an automatic path to eternal life. But then James comes along and says that Abrahams faith was justified because of his works and through his works, Abrahams faith was perfected.

This scripture that Abraham believed God and obeyed his word and kept his commandments, and statutes, and laws was the real reason that God imputed onto Abraham his righteousness. Funny how we ignore some scriptures and worship others.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

Endoscopy · May 6, 2018

Studyman said:

mailmandan said:

ROFL
I have gone round and round with you on your foolish assertions. Others have done it as well. Therefore your request is just posturing. You refuse to hear the facts as stated in the Bible and created out of thin air eschatology is only in the spirit world contrary to what the Bible states.

Stop your disingenuous posturing.

mailmandan · May 6, 2018

Endoscopy said:

ROFL
I have gone round and round with you on your foolish assertions. Others have done it as well. Therefore your request is just posturing. You refuse to hear the facts as stated in the Bible and created out of thin air eschatology is only in the spirit world contrary to what the Bible states.

Stop your disingenuous posturing.

So it’s not just me!

Studyman · May 6, 2018

gb9 said:

I haven't spent much time studying what the scholars and the historians teach. I know what the Word which became Flesh taught about the Pharisees. Over and over and over. I appreciate the analogy, but I don't think it really applies to the Pharisees.

Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

51
From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, but I don't think the Pharisees really cared for God's program and that is where their problem started.

Endoscopy · May 6, 2018

dcontroversal said:

Explain to me where I go unbiblical.

We are saved by grace through faith.
Faith produces works.
Faith without works is dead

Conclusion reached by logic from these assertions.
Works are required as a result of being saved by grace through faith.
No works no faith.

Works doesn't save but without them there is no saving faith.

Studyman · May 6, 2018

Endoscopy said:

Studyman said:

I think your words are more harmful to you than they are me.

You have a nice day.

UnderGrace · May 6, 2018

These two ideas are in contradiction, do you not see this?

Are you saying works keep us saved?

Ongoing faith keeps us saved?

It really is not clear to me

Endoscopy said:

mailmandan · May 6, 2018

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) yet genuine faith is (evidenced, substantiated, confirmed) by works (James 2:14-26).

Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful.

BillG · May 6, 2018

TruthTalk said:

Hi TT

I never knew my dad. Only two nasty memories.
One I still have the consequences of. He went to hit my mum, she ducked and his fist hit my face.
The next being the police breaking down the door and besting him to a pulp.

My mum threw me out when I was 14. Her upbringing was Muslim. Fell pregnant out of wedlock.
She was on the abortion table with me but did not go through with it.
So she spent her life blaming me

So I became a Christian, not long after she threw me out.
I was fostered by a Christian family.
Spent the next 4 years being sexually abused by my foster dad.
At some point the police turn up.
I confided with someone as to what was going on.
When the police turned up my foster mum told me that my foster dad had been imprisoned for sexual child abuse.

So basically if I say yes he is abusing me I have 3 choices.

Go back to the mother who threw me out, go into a home or say no and put up with it.
My foster mum and dad had a young child.

I said no. It was the best of the worst.

Now this makes me very sad but it is true.

I have shared this on this thread a long way back.

Someone basically responded along the lines off "You have suffered nothing compared with X,y,z"

Yes they were right but no love or compassion.

Now imagine I come to you and tell you this whilst I'm struggling with it.

I'm convinced you, DC, Eternally and many others as I was sat in tears and pain oozing would put your arms around me and in doing so would be calling on the name of Jesus for healing and freedom.

So what set me free?

Eventually I had to come before God and seek the truth.
The truth of whom I am in Jesus.
It took a loving beautiful wife who suffered many years of my pain with love, a guy in church who did not know me seek me out.
A guy who cried on my behalf and as a result told me "Its ok to cry to God and be honest with him"
When I did I swore a lot.

Then I started to be set free.
God loves me as much as he loves Jesus. I loved God but it was a perverse love a wrong love.

It was a process. I had to forgive, the Holy Spirit helped me in this, even though for all those years before I would not forgive.

I'm here now, set free, free to love because I'm loved but also to love those who do not love me.

That is why I'm so passionate about not writing people off.
I actually led a ministry in church but stopped it. Sought help but was refused because I was not giving out.

So I stopped going to church for about 15 years.
Not one person sought me out during that time.
I was written off.

Brothers and Sisters in Jesus.

I implore you, never ever mitigate what someone is going through. Never ever write them off.
If someone has gone MIA, seek them out.
Be doctors, be nurses.
Let God use you to bring healing.

I know many of you have heard my testimony.

If it bores you I ask you to think again

You could be the person that God used to help me and restore me.
I am now walking with people in my church ministry and outside of the church to bring the love and grace that Jesus did.

Jesus is the ultimate doctor. Heal the broken hearted, the blind, the land.

Let that be the focus.
Let us be like Jesus.

BillG · May 6, 2018

Get out there, get in there.

Love people just like Jesus did and wants us to do.

TruthTalk · May 6, 2018

BillG said:

"God loves us as much as He loves Jesus." To me that say's it all.

When I was 12yrs old I came out from my bedroom to find my Mom bleeding so I stood between my dad and my Mom and said if you lay a hand on here again I'm gonna kill you. He walked away.

Yes I too was rejected by my Church family after going through a divorce. I was a member in good standing for 15yrs. and no one wanted to associate themselves with a divorcee, a pity.

Keep telling your story from the roof tops and God will bless many lives...

dcontroversal · May 6, 2018

Shamah said:

nice refusal to answer and redirection... you ask the same question every time, never answer my questions you just go to something you think is making me llook bad. No I am not perfect, yes I have sinned, yes I have broken the Law, thatks be to YHWH He offers mercy, this mercy does not make His Instructions null and void. Scripture is clear we need His mercy and it is also clear we are to do His will.

accuse this:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 5:28-30, “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have done* righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced* evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 119:11, “I have treasured up Your word in my heart, That I might not sin against You.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 2:1-2, "My little children, I write these things to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father: Yahshua Messiah, the Righteous; and He is the sacrifice of atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and possessing the Witness of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 7:24-27, “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them, shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.” [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

Do you keep all applicable 613 laws or do you pick and choose like burger king.....Do you plant and harvest crops or a garden? Who do you give 10% of the increase to, which priest? Do you? Do you? Do you? x 613 ....if not you are peddling and pushing that which you do not keep yourself....THE SAME HYPOCRITICAL GARBAGE the Pharisees did....this goes for ALL HEBREW ROOTS, LAW KEEPING WORKING FOR RELIGIONISTS.......

Endoscopy · May 6, 2018

Studyman said:

Endoscopy said:

You are blinded by your own egotism. You adhere to the pretorist view that isn't completely Biblical! When confronted with the non Biblical part you retreat to the spirit world and ignore the verses stating things take place in the real world.

dcontroversal · May 6, 2018

Shamah said:

I want to add this is the reason why I beleive that:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 6:28-29,28 So they said to Him, “What should we do to work the works of the Mighty One?” יהושע answered and said to them, “This is the work of the Mighty One, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 7:37-38, “This is the Mosheh who said to the children of Yisra’yl, ‘יהוה [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear.’ This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness with the Messenger who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received the living Words to give to us.”[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

*Mosheh wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, “I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it.”

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַע[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]shama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 3:19-23, “Repent therefore and turn back, for the blotting out of your sins, in order that times of refreshing might come from the presence of the Master, and that He sends יהושע [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah, pre-appointed for you, whom heaven needs to receive until the times of restoration of all matters, of which the Mighty One spoke through the mouth of all His set-apart prophets since of old. For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘[/FONT]יהוה [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”[/FONT][/FONT]

Yeah, his name is Moses.....are you a Jew/Hebrew by birth?

Endoscopy · May 6, 2018

dcontroversal said:

For those who want to know the 613 laws scattered in the Torah. Here they are. They are divided into do's and don'ts. After that they are divided into group groups that pertain to people and places.

In addition to the 10 commandments there are the laws scattered through the Torah.

List of the 613 laws in the Torah
http://www.gods-word-first.org/bible-study/613commandments.html

Discussion about the 613 laws in the Torah
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

For some reason links can't be clicked on but copy and pasted into the browser. Why has this problem not been resolved???

dcontroversal · May 6, 2018

graceNpeace said:

Genesis 26:4-5 DOES NOT say that Abraham kept the Torah (613 laws as given to Moses) and any attempt to say so is just lying, complete dishonesty.
I know Genesis rather well and the real truth is that what is meant by Genesis 26:4-5 is utter speculation as far as what those laws, commandments etc actually were....

You keep quoting the definition of the word "torah".
I know what it means and it simply means "law".
It does not, of necessity refer to the THE TORAH (613 laws as given to Moses) and any attempt push that kind of meaning onto the word "torah", especially since the ONLY proof of when the TORAH (613 laws given to Moses) was given WAS WHEN IT WAS GIVEN TO MOSES, and never before...

As for ignoring the fact that Noah knew clean foods from unclean foods, does not imply that he had the TORAH (613 laws as given to Moses). It means he knew which foods were clean and unclean...
This was never a spiritual or ceremonial issue - these unclean foods would often make one unwell and this was well known in those times and was not dependent on the Torah (613 laws as given to Moses) to become known...

And, I agree that currently this conversation is not built on any real search for what the Word of God says, because you are indulging in proposing fairytales that have no basis in actual fact.

Bottom-line: The Torah, as given to Moses, was COMPLETELY unknown prior to Moses receiving it at Mount Sinai, and there is absolutely no biblical proof to the contrary!

Brother....you know full well they must be deceptive in their approach...through and through they attempt to place the men of the bible under the same legalistic rigmarole that the Pharisees used in their day......Romans 3 and 4 are clear....so is the logically deduced conclusion of Paul...Abraham was justified by faith without the deeds/works of the LAW LONG BEFORE HE WAS "WHACKED" or offered Isaac........

dcontroversal · May 6, 2018

graceNpeace said:

Abraham had 100% of the Torah apart from the Levitical priesthood!!????!!!!

LOL

Utterly preposterous!
You have no proof for this fantasy...none whatsoever!

Yet you persist in peddling this fantasy.
Abraham did NOT have the Torah (minus the Levitical priesthood)!
There are no Biblical texts to support this at all - not even circumstantial evidence.

Your house of cards (impossible to dignify this with the words theology or doctrine) is based on you READING INTO THE TEXT your own meaning completely devoid of actual proof.
You have a preconceived wish for these things to be as you have said and you have gone "looking" for any text that might support the claim.
In theology we call this "eisegesis" a Greek word that means to read meaning into a text rather than "exegesis" which means to let the text explain itself.

Put another way - your beliefs are based on a lie....

Faux is a word that comes to mind.......burger king theology <--10 to 1 he picks and chooses which laws to obey while ignoring most of them.....

TruthTalk · May 6, 2018

dcontroversal said:

The Hebrew Roots movement puts their Hebrew Roots "in front" of their Christianity just the opposite of what God wants from us. We are all, "children of God through faith,"

Either the Law or the Promise, not both: Romans3:28,29

28) There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29) If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

God bless!

Not By Works

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

UnderGrace

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Senior Member