Not By Works

[mailmandan]

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”

“does not obey” is word #544 - apeitheó: to disobey, Original Word: ἀπειθέω, Part of Speech: Verb, Transliteration: apeitheó, Phonetic Spelling: (ap-i-theh'-o), Short Definition: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, Definition: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, refuse conformity.

In John 3:36, "He that BELIEVES on the Son has everlasting life". *Notice that this BELIEF is not in yourself or in good works. Notice also that this BELIEF is not in Jesus Christ "plus something else," otherwise the BELIEF (trust, reliance) would not be "ON THE SON".

In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing on the Son, but obey by choosing to believe on the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to believe on the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NKJV says "does not believe the Son" and the NIV says "rejects the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to not obey the Son means to reject His message by refusing to believe on the Son.

I have often heard works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics and Campbellites) cite John 3:36 in the NAS translation of the Bible and stress the word "obey" the Son, then write a blank check with the word "obey" and fill out whatever amount of works they feel are necessary to be saved (water baptism, partaking of the Lord's Supper during Mass, obeying the commandments, performing works of charity etc..) and call that believing on the Son, yet they are actually believing "in their works" and not IN/ON THE SON.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5,9,11,13,16,17; 5:1; 10:4; 26:18; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-8,14,22,24,26; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

*You don't need to "add" the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. *So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

Once again, in James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

These passages of scripture are often misinterpreted by works-salvationists who ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience that follow saving faith in Christ are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works. Unbelievers are not slaves of obedience unto righteousness no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on their works.

There is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. *When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." "Obeying the gospel" and "obeying that form of doctrine" in these passages is really a synonym for BELIEVING the gospel. Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

amen brother

 

[Studyman]

In John 3:36, "He that BELIEVES on the Son has everlasting life". *Notice that this BELIEF is not in yourself or in good works. Notice also that this BELIEF is not in Jesus Christ "plus something else," otherwise the BELIEF (trust, reliance) would not be "ON THE SON".

In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing on the Son, but obey by choosing to believe on the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to believe on the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NKJV says "does not believe the Son" and the NIV says "rejects the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to not obey the Son means to reject His message by refusing to believe on the Son.

I have often heard works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics and Campbellites) cite John 3:36 in the NAS translation of the Bible and stress the word "obey" the Son, then write a blank check with the word "obey" and fill out whatever amount of works they feel are necessary to be saved (water baptism, partaking of the Lord's Supper during Mass, obeying the commandments, performing works of charity etc..) and call that believing on the Son, yet they are actually believing "in their works" and not IN/ON THE SON.

The religion that you can "claim the righteousness of the Messiah" but reject His instructions is as old as the Serpent and Eve. The Bible is full of examples of this religious practice and God's rejection of it.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of (Mans) works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship,(bought with a price) created in Christ Jesus(Word which became Flesh) unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, (Word which became Flesh) Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths,(Before ordained by God) where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Matt. 11:28 Come unto me,(Word which became Flesh) all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my (Word which became Flesh) yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

[mailmandan]

The religion that you can "claim the righteousness of the Messiah" but reject His instructions is as old as the Serpent and Eve. The Bible is full of examples of this religious practice and God's rejection of it.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of (Mans) works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship,(bought with a price) created in Christ Jesus(Word which became Flesh) unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, (Word which became Flesh) Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths,(Before ordained by God) where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Matt. 11:28 Come unto me,(Word which became Flesh) all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my (Word which became Flesh) yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Same old song and dance. Genuine believers do not reject His instructions and they also do not pervert the gospel by teaching salvation by “grace plus law, faith plus works.”

 

[Studyman]

Same old song and dance. Genuine believers do not reject His instructions and they also do not pervert the gospel by teaching salvation by “grace plus law, faith plus works.”

Thank you once again for your thoughtful and spirit filled reply regarding the Word's of God which I posted..

 

[mailmandan]

Thank you once again for your thoughtful and spirit filled reply regarding the Word's of God which I posted..

Your twisting of God’s Word is neither thoughtful or spirit filled. Many people (including myself) have already shared the truth with you from God’s Word numerous times, but you are not interested in the truth and are only interested in promoting your deluded agenda.

 

[Studyman]

Your twisting of God’s Word is neither thoughtful or spirit filled. Many people (including myself) have already shared the truth with you from God’s Word numerous times, but you are not interested in the truth and are only interested in promoting your deluded agenda.

Can you show me an example of one Scripture I have twisted in my post above? Or any Post. You keep making the accusation. Can you show me the basic Christian courtesy and explain how I twist scripture?

 

[VCO]

Either you can't read well or you are so giddy to find fault you ignored what I actually said...

IF WE CAN FIND ONE PERSON IN THE BIBLE, WHO WAS MADE RIGHTEOUS, THAT IS CLEARLY DEFINED; then we will KNOW how GOD imparts RIGHTEOUSNESS to Everyone else.


Malachi 3:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] “Because I, Yahweh, have not changed,
you descendants of Jacob have not been destroyed.


Romans 4:3-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous, his faith is credited for righteousness.

 

[TruthTalk]

In John 3:36, "He that BELIEVES on the Son has everlasting life". *Notice that this BELIEF is not in yourself or in good works. Notice also that this BELIEF is not in Jesus Christ "plus something else," otherwise the BELIEF (trust, reliance) would not be "ON THE SON".

In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing on the Son, but obey by choosing to believe on the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to believe on the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NKJV says "does not believe the Son" and the NIV says "rejects the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to not obey the Son means to reject His message by refusing to believe on the Son.

I have often heard works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics and Campbellites) cite John 3:36 in the NAS translation of the Bible and stress the word "obey" the Son, then write a blank check with the word "obey" and fill out whatever amount of works they feel are necessary to be saved (water baptism, partaking of the Lord's Supper during Mass, obeying the commandments, performing works of charity etc..) and call that believing on the Son, yet they are actually believing "in their works" and not IN/ON THE SON.

Hi Mailman, love your posts, no pun here. I've said only a few times that some people are looking at God's word through the wrong end of their telescope. They see only one word such as, "obey" like in John 3:36 and then proceed to build their false ideas without proper interpretation of Gods word.

When you point out their error and wrongful interpretation they turn a blind eye because their false conclusions fall apart. Bad "interpretations" always equals bad "conclusions" which always equals wrong "applications."

When you have "bad applications" of Gods word, your going down a very dangerous road.

God bless!

 

[Studyman]

IF WE CAN FIND ONE PERSON IN THE BIBLE, WHO WAS MADE RIGHTEOUS, THAT IS CLEARLY DEFINED; then we will KNOW how GOD imparts RIGHTEOUSNESS to Everyone else.


Malachi 3:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] “Because I, Yahweh, have not changed,
you descendants of Jacob have not been destroyed.


Romans 4:3-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous, his faith is credited for righteousness.

Are you not forgetting that God created a Priesthood which had ceremonial, sacrificial "works" for the cleansing of sins? And one could not be righteous without the removal of these sins?

And the Biblical fact that Abraham had God's Laws, but did not have the Priesthood God gave through Moses 430 years later.

Abraham didn't take his best goat to the Levite Priest every year as was commanded by God through Moses. He didn't "Pay" for his sin to be removed, he trusted in the Word which became Flesh to remove his sin.

But it would be sin to omit what God said about Abraham.

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

He had God's Commandments, but he didn't have the Priesthood given to the Levites who were not yet born.

So Abraham was justified "Apart" from the justification laws given to the Levites for the people. This truth seems to be ignored by many who come in Christ's name.

 

[Shamah]

Either you can't read well or you are so giddy to find fault you ignored what I actually said...

well it does say Torah and it actually means Instructions...

Also this is what ihear from you "we don;t konw what he was given as "Torah" but we KNOW it was NOT that!"

as I said before:



Fact is it says Abraham followed the Torah, Noah did indeed have clean food/animal Laws, we do not know exactly what Laws they did or did not have to say 100% they had all the Law Moses had (besides Levite priesthood, Abraham was under Pristhood of MalakZadiq). We cant say 100% or no, but we can look at what is written and see there was Law/Instructions/Torah before Moses...

IF WE CAN FIND ONE PERSON IN THE BIBLE, WHO WAS MADE RIGHTEOUS, THAT IS CLEARLY DEFINED; then we will KNOW how GOD imparts RIGHTEOUSNESS to Everyone else.


Malachi 3:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] “Because I, Yahweh, have not changed,
you descendants of Jacob have not been destroyed.


Romans 4:3-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous, his faith is credited for righteousness.

The conversation I was having was not about being righteous or not is was about if there was any Law before Moses. I showed Abraham had some form of Torah/Law/Instruction and Noah had clean food/animal Laws;

You are speaking against a point that was not even a part of the conversation.

You are the only one expousing hogwash, you supoply no Scrupture to support your view.

Genesis 26:4-5, “And I shall increase your seed like the stars of the heavens, and I shall give all these lands to your seed. And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because Aḇraham obeyed My voice and guarded My Charge: My commands, My laws, and My Torah.”

"torah" is word 8451. torah ►
Strong's Concordance
torah: direction, instruction, law
Original Word: תּוֹרָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: torah
Phonetic Spelling: (to-raw')
Short Definition: law

how did Noah have clean food/animal laws before Moses?


Genesis 7:1-2, "Then YHWH said to Noah: Come into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen you righteous before Me in this generation. You shall take with you seven pairs of every clean animal, a male and his female; two of animals that are unclean, a male and his female;"

Leviticus 11:1-2, "And YHWH spoke to Mosheh and Aaron, saying to them: Speak to the children of Israyl, saying; These are the animals you may eat among all the beasts upon the land" 43-44, "You shall not make yourselves abominable with any creature that moves about on the ground. Do not defile yourselves by means of them, nor be made unclean by them. I am YHWH your Heavenly Father. You shall therefore consecrate and sanctify yourselves, and you shall be holy; for I am holy. Neither shall you defile yourselves with any creature that moves about on the ground." 46-47, "This is the Law of the animals, and the birds, and every living thing that moves in the waters, and every creature that moves about on the ground. You must distinguish between the unclean and the clean--between the animal that may be eaten, and the animal that may not be eaten."


and why does Job not count?

phh you dont seem to understand when the Hebrews were captive in Egypt they forgot the Way of the Creator, even His name and this is fact because we can see it being called upon, by name by at least 2 post Adam pre Moses people...

 

[mailmandan]

Hi Mailman, love your posts, no pun here. I've said only a few times that some people are looking at God's word through the wrong end of their telescope. They see only one word such as, "obey" like in John 3:36 and then proceed to build their false ideas without proper interpretation of Gods word.

When you point out their error and wrongful interpretation they turn a blind eye because their false conclusions fall apart. Bad "interpretations" always equals bad "conclusions" which always equals wrong "applications."

When you have "bad applications" of Gods word, your going down a very dangerous road.

God bless!

Thank you! Amen, well said and God bless you!

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:6, "Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd (4166 – poimén)."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”[/FONT]

 

[BillG]

Hi Mailman, love your posts, no pun here. I've said only a few times that some people are looking at God's word through the wrong end of their telescope. They see only one word such as, "obey" like in John 3:36 and then proceed to build their false ideas without proper interpretation of Gods word.

When you point out their error and wrongful interpretation they turn a blind eye because their false conclusions fall apart. Bad "interpretations" always equals bad "conclusions" which always equals wrong "applications."

When you have "bad applications" of Gods word, your going down a very dangerous road.

God bless!

You raise a very important point.
It's easy to look at passages you have mentioned and take it out of context.

But as a man who fell foul of this I can understand how easy it is to fall foul.

There are many reasons why people do, and to be honest I do not feel its intentional.

My having to work hard in order to be loved and accepted was based on my life's experiences.
I must work harder, harder and harder.
If I fell foul then God was gonna come down on me like a ton of bricks.
A beating was coming and at some point God was gonna say "You stupid ########, it's no wonder I don't love you, I only accept you because of my son Jesus, of only you could be like him, then I know you love me"

Now that was my thoughts based on life's experiences. And that is shocking, but was real to me.

Now I have been set free from that, not fully but still working through the old deep rooted mindset.

Now what at me free?

When I read Jesus saying "God loves me as much as he him"
I questioned myself as to did I love God and Jesus, because after all I wasn't perfect.
I spent the first 28 years of my Christian life thinking I'd committed the unforgivable sin.

So it easy to fall into the trap to work hard in order to be loved, accepted and saved.

Jesus said "If you love me, you will"

When I think of my kids.
Do they obey to still be my kids?
No they do not.
They obey because they love me.
They don't get it right all of the time but they still know they are my kids and I am their dad.

So our works should always be based on "Because we love" nothing more or nothing less.

We are saved by faith unto good works.

When Jesus seperates the sheep and goats the sheep are those whose works are those based on love.

We do not do works to be saved or loved, we do works because we are loved and saved.

His love in us outworking to others.

If we could work our way to heaven then Jesus would have said so.

But he did not.

He said believe in me for the forgiveness of sins, reconciliation to the Father through faith in him.
As a result works will follow.

People works do not save.
Faith in Jesus for forgiveness of sins save and as a result works will follow and fruit will grow.

Look at the concourse between Jesus and Peter when Jesus restored him.

The first 2 times Jesus asked Peter "Do you Agape me?
Peter responded twice with "I Phileo you"
To which the 3rd time Jesus used Phileo and Peter gets upset.

The point is that Peter went on to good works, growing from Phileo to Agape.

Works based in love.

 

[benhur]

I am not familiar with what you mean by that.

Also I know, is REALLY being Born Again, means you have genuine remorse for your sins and confess it to HIM, repenting of it, and receiving HIS FORGIVENESS FOR YOUR UTTERLY SINFUL Lifestyle. Then out of LOVE FOR HIM, you willingly receive HIM AS LORD, meaning MASTER. Then HE out of His Mercy and Grace will grant that You can be a Adopted son or daughter of GOD.

Any thing less, is the Easy Believism FALSE GOSPEL, that WILL NOT SAVE.


John 1:12-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] who were born, not of blood, or of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man, but of God.


Obedience is NOT PART OF SALVATION, but it IS PART OF OUR LOVE. The genuine lifestyle of any truly born again Believer.


1 John 4:8 (ESV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

1 John 3:14-19 (ESV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him;


1 John 5:3 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden*,


*When you SAY, "I HAVE TO OBEY GOD", that is a BURDEN.

When you can genuinely say, "I want to Obey GOD, because I LOVE HIM." It ceases to be a Burden, and becomes an ACT OF LOVE for GOD, and that in turn will be that kind of GODLY LOVE, which will manifest itself to the Brethren.


Romans 5:5-10 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For while we were still helpless, at the appointed moment, Christ died for the ungodly.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For rarely will someone die for a just person—though for a good person perhaps someone might even dare to die.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But God proves His own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us!
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, ⌊then how⌋ much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life!


Titus 3:5-8 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed God might be careful to devote themselves to good works. These are good and profitable for everyone.


Hopefully YOU CAN SEE, that it is NOT PART OF SALVATION, which happened in a single moment of time, but it is the good works of OUR LOVE, that GOD HAD POURED INTO OUR HEARTS.

OK, you say that obedience is not part of salvation but is part of our love.

Then you say that anyone that does not love, does not know God for God is love.

I would suggest that if someone does not love and does not know God, will not receive eternal life, and is not saved.

So if obedience is part of love and you do not obey, you are not going to fully love and if you do not fully love you will not fully know God, and you will not enjoy eternal life and you will not be saved. This is a conclusion that I come to out of your own mouth.

 

[Shamah]

It would seem to many doing the will of the Most High is not only the worst thig a believer can do but worthy of criticisim...

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 10:27-30, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; neither will any man snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who gave them to Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand: I and My Father are in accord."[/FONT]

 

[benhur]

Complete hogwash....

You are claiming that Abraham had knowledge of the Torah BEFORE the Torah was given to Moses??!!!????
And you are doing this quite without ANY biblical evidence (the book of Job does not help here)...

In other words your beliefs are based on fantasy!

Do you think Abraham was less of a prophet than Moses. Do you think that Abraham knew less than Moses about the economy of God? I don't think so.

 

[Studyman]

Hi Mailman, love your posts, no pun here. I've said only a few times that some people are looking at God's word through the wrong end of their telescope. They see only one word such as, "obey" like in John 3:36 and then proceed to build their false ideas without proper interpretation of Gods word.

When you point out their error and wrongful interpretation they turn a blind eye because their false conclusions fall apart. Bad "interpretations" always equals bad "conclusions" which always equals wrong "applications."

When you have "bad applications" of Gods word, your going down a very dangerous road.

God bless!

I think it is important to identify which "interpretations" go against religious traditions of man and which go against the Word's of God.

For instance there is a doctrine floating around that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by following God's Commandments. This is a wide spread religious doctrine taught my "many" who come in Christ's Name, some on this very forum.

But if one actually studies the Word of God, we find that the Pharisees had "rejected" the Commandments of God and had replaced them with their own version of God's Laws. ("Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" not God) This was prophesied many times in the OT and Paul and Jesus repeated this Biblical Truth several times through out the Bible. I will provide the scriptures again if anyone wants them, I have posted volumes of them many times.

But there are those who have been convinced through religious traditions of man, that they were "following God's Laws to the letter", willing to use one, maybe two verses in the NT to erase and reject all of Christ's Words and ALL the Prophets prophesies regarding them to protect their religious doctrine.

For these, no manner of scriptures or Word's of God will change their mind. Any scripture which opposes their religious tradition, or brings them in question, is a "bad translation" or a "bad interpretation". These are the folks who use one scripture to beat up another instead of working to understand them both.

It is nothing new, Stephen simply recounted scriptures which exposed the Mainstream preachers of his time and was stoned for it. Not to mention the Messiah who tried to save them, and was murdered for His Honesty.

I am hoping people might realize it is a natural reaction to be defensive when ever anyone suggests you are wrong. But God is not going to come down in a bright light to correct any of us. He is going to use another person, someone who we will most likely see as a nobody, to show us the truth. Even an ass.

So we should be looking for correction and always working to discern the difference between interpretations that oppose our religious thoughts and traditions, and interpretations which oppose the actual teaching of the Bible.

 

[benhur]

So what.....O.T. saints were saved the same way N.T. saints are....and law keeping is not it......second....if you think for one second that this indicates they kept the law....not only is that foolish, but also reeks of ignorance! There is not a just man upon the earth that does good and sins not....your law keeping drivel is exactly that....drivel!

That seems like a rather brash indictment of the bible. A scripture that does not fit your theology is rubbish? Is worthless? Is contemptable? Is to be disregarded as drivel? Is that where this discussion has come to? The scriptures in the bible I use to prove my theology are good, but any other scriptures in the bible are drivel? I hope not.

 

[Shamah]

I think it is important to identify which "interpretations" go against religious traditions of man and which go against the Word's of God.

For instance there is a doctrine floating around that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by following God's Commandments. This is a wide spread religious doctrine taught my "many" who come in Christ's Name, some on this very forum.

But if one actually studies the Word of God, we find that the Pharisees had "rejected" the Commandments of God and had replaced them with their own version of God's Laws. ("Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" not God) This was prophesied many times in the OT and Paul and Jesus repeated this Biblical Truth several times through out the Bible. I will provide the scriptures again if anyone wants them, I have posted volumes of them many times.

But there are those who have been convinced through religious traditions of man, that they were "following God's Laws to the letter", willing to use one, maybe two verses in the NT to erase and reject all of Christ's Words and ALL the Prophets prophesies regarding them to protect their religious doctrine.

For these, no manner of scriptures or Word's of God will change their mind. Any scripture which opposes their religious tradition, or brings them in question, is a "bad translation" or a "bad interpretation". These are the folks who use one scripture to beat up another instead of working to understand them both.

It is nothing new, Stephen simply recounted scriptures which exposed the Mainstream preachers of his time and was stoned for it. Not to mention the Messiah who tried to save them, and was murdered for His Honesty.

I am hoping people might realize it is a natural reaction to be defensive when ever anyone suggests you are wrong. But God is not going to come down in a bright light to correct any of us. He is going to use another person, someone who we will most likely see as a nobody, to show us the truth. Even an ass.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 Kings 17:19, “Yehuḏah, also, did not guard the commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]their Strength, but walked in the laws of Yisra’yl which they made.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 15:3-9, “But He answering, said to them, “Why do you also transgress the command of YHWH because of your tradition? For YHWH has commanded, saying, ‘Respect your father and your mother,’ ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me has been dedicated, is certainly released from respecting his father or mother.’ So you have nullified the command of YHWH by your tradition."Hypocrites! Well did Isayah (29:13-14*) prophesy of you, saying: These people draw near to Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." [/FONT]

So we should be looking for correction and always working to discern the difference between interpretations that oppose our religious thoughts and traditions, and interpretations which oppose the actual teaching of the Bible.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, “By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 23:4, “For they (the pharisees not YHWH) bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders, but with their finger they do not wish to move them.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]How do they “bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders, but with their finger they do not wish to move them?”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]New International Version - Mat 23:2-3, "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]King James Bible - Mat 23:2-3, "Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Shem Tob's Hebrew Mattithyah - Mat 23:2-3, "The Pharisees and Sages sit upon the seat of Mosheh. Therefore, all that he (Mosheh) says to you, diligently do, but according to their takanot (reforms) and their ma'asim (precedents) do not do, because they talk (Torah) but they do not do."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Takanot: rabbinical reforms or enactments that falsely change or add to YHWH's Law.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ma'asim: acts or deeds that serve as precedents for rabbinic law.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Both Takanot and Ma'asim are laws of the Talmud. The Savior said this to the Pharisees;[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 23:8, “But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi, (master)’ for One is your Master, the Messiah, and you are all brothers.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matt 23:33, "Serpents! Brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of Gehenna?"

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