Not By Works

[benhur]

I pray you do not think you teach grace. Far from it my friend.

I teach grace in its proper context. Always remember that live/vibrant faith is always accompanied by all good works. If I knew you personally, I suspect you would be a poster boy of this very doctrine. Of course your good works are wrought for the right reasons and not for your own selfish gain or thinking your good works saves you. It is the same with me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am not sure how you can say that there are those who believe works save us. Nobody believes that. But I will say that if you know unbelievers that do more good works than the faith-filled believers, then I would assess my faith.

Do you believe this: If you do not forgive all men their trespasses against you, your God will not forgive your trespasses against Him. No forgiveness of sin, no eternal life.

so no one teaches works, but if we do not work real hard to forgive all men....

you just contradicted yourself.

 

[benhur]

It is faith alone,and not by works,that saves us.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

But after we receive the Spirit then the responsibility falls on us for the Spirit will not twist our arm to do right,so we have to make the choice to do right.

Live and vibrant faith never stands alone. It is always accompanied by all good wroks. If it is not, then you know that a persons faith is dead, IOW they were never saved in the first place.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I teach grace in its proper context. Always remember that live/vibrant faith is always accompanied by all good works. If I knew you personally, I suspect you would be a poster boy of this very doctrine. Of course your good works are wrought for the right reasons and not for your own selfish gain or thinking your good works saves you. It is the same with me.

no, you teach works, there is no such thing as grace plus works, its either one or the other.

If i give you a gift, it is yurs, works has no part of the equation.

if i am giving you a down payment for your work, it is not a grace gift.

Your teaching down payment theology, not grace,

 

[Gabriel2020]

If you hold something against a person, it is a debt unpaid,. You either require payment or dismiss it, meaning forgive the debtor. If you are indebted to God for something he might hold against you, he will forgive the debt only if you forgive the debt of someone who is indebted to you. Debts can be resolved two ways. paid off or dismissed. I don't believe it will have anything to do with eternal salvation, but your rewards in heaven.

 

[BillG]

I believe that, thank you. My only suggestion is that if good works do not follow, then you were not saved in the first place. Am I correct about that?

By their fruit you will know them.

How long does fruit take to grow?
Can we bear bad fruit along with good fruit?

Will a newly planted tree suddenly bear fruit?

 

[BillG]

Live and vibrant faith never stands alone. It is always accompanied by all good wroks. If it is not, then you know that a persons faith is dead, IOW they were never saved in the first place.

Don't get "accompanied by all good works"

What's that mean?

 

[TruthTalk]

so no one teaches works, but if we do not work real hard to forgive all men....

you just contradicted yourself.

Thank you E-gratful, I thought that contradiction would get a pass, but not for you...

 

[mailmandan]

Thank you E-gratful, I thought that contradiction would get a pass, but not for you...

I once heard someone on a Bible discussion forum say, "we are not saved by works, but we must do works in order to be saved." Talk about a contradiction.

 

[BillG]

The problem is there are differences of opinion about the meaning of issues in the scripture. The early church had this issue. To seperate heretical issues from legitimate differences the Roman Creed was created in the 200s and updated to the Apostles Creed by 390. That Creed is a doctrinal statement defining who is and isn't a Christian. Every issue outside that is agree to disagree. Method of baptism for example.

The Apostles Creed

In Latin

[FONT=&quot]Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem, Creatorem caeli et terrae,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] et in Iesum Christum, Filium Eius unicum, Dominum nostrum,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] qui conceptus est de Spiritu Sancto, natus ex Maria Virgine,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] passus sub Pontio Pilato, crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] descendit ad infernos, tertia die resurrexit a mortuis,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ascendit ad caelos, sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] inde venturus est iudicare vivos et mortuos.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Credo in Spiritum Sanctum,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] sanctam Ecclesiam catholicam, sanctorum communionem,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] remissionem peccatorum,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] carnis resurrectionem,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] vitam aeternam.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Amen.
[/FONT]
In Greek

[FONT=&quot]Πιστεύω εἰς θεòν πατέρα, παντοκράτορα, ποιητὴν οὐρανοῦ καὶ γῆς.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Καὶ (εἰς) Ἰησοῦν Χριστòν, υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τòν μονογενῆ, τòν κύριον ἡμῶν,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] τòν συλληφθέντα ἐκ πνεύματος ἁγίου, γεννηθέντα ἐκ Μαρίας τῆς παρθένου,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] παθόντα ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου, σταυρωθέντα, θανόντα, καὶ ταφέντα,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] κατελθόντα εἰς τὰ κατώτατα, τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ ἀναστάντα ἀπò τῶν νεκρῶν,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ἀνελθόντα εἰς τοὺς οὐρανούς, καθεζόμενον ἐν δεξιᾷ θεοῦ πατρὸς παντοδυνάμου,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ἐκεῖθεν ἐρχόμενον κρῖναι ζῶντας καὶ νεκρούς.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Πιστεύω εἰς τò πνεῦμα τò ἅγιον, ἁγίαν καθολικὴν ἐκκλησίαν, ἁγίων κοινωνίαν,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν, σαρκὸς ἀνάστασιν, ζωὴν αἰώνιον.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ἀμήν.
[/FONT]
In English

[FONT=&quot]I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit
and born of the virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty.
From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic* church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]*that is, the true Christian church of all times and all places

What does it say concerning defining a Christian?

To me it's saying belief defines a Christian.
Actually put aside the term Christian as it's misnomer today.

This is what saves

[/FONT]
Romans 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

If that is a genuine confession then works will follow as a result of genuine conversion.

It's not those works that save us. I can't see that being said in the creed.
If that were the case then that would have been stated.

We know Jesus said

John 6:27-29
27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Then we know that works will follow, we will bear fruit.
Not because we have to but because we love him who first loved us.





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[/FONT]

 

[benhur]

And those are works of the holy spirit through us. only those with spiritual eyes and ears can understand this

So the good works of faith are accomplished through the HG, and only understandable and discernable to those with spiritual eyes and ears?

Are you saying that those that do not have spiritual eyes and ears, will be unaware that good works are being done by the believer?

 

[BillG]

I once heard someone on a Bible discussion forum say, "we are not saved by works, but we must do works in order to be saved." Talk about a contradiction.

Me thinks they probably meant "To maintain salvation"

Either way it places heavy burdens on people.
And we know Jesus did not come to do that.

 

[benhur]

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith, which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

This is exactly true.

 

[benhur]

Amen! Good works are the fruit of salvation but never the root of it. Faith is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful.

That is true, you are doing well mailmandan. Hope you don't mind that I am agreeing with you.

 

[benhur]

Has anyone told benhur what his lack of understanding really is?


1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I could, if I were as unChristian as you, say the same thing to you, but I won't. Thanks for the helping Christian hand.

 

[benhur]

Embellish with one micro gram of work, law keeping or religious hoop jumping = no longer grace and a false dogma with no power to save!

Are you telling me that a live and vibrant faith is not embellished with all good works in the love of Jesus Christ?

 

[benhur]

Hi Ben...When we are born again , we all have the Holy Spirit in us...We can do many good works off our own back , but that is from the flesh , then we can do many good works when we are led by the Holy Spirit...Now there are able people like you and I that can do many works for the Lord in and out of season , and there are people who are born again and are bed bound , wheelchair bound , depressed , mentally ill , physically disabled , deaf , dumb , blind that do no works but are still saved...

It is God alone who leads us to do His works , He alone knows those of us who are capable of certain things we can and can not do...Some people are called to travel the world and go to the other side of the earth to preach the good news , my role I believe is to be a good example to my children , my children's children and my great grand children...

God looks at our hearts , when we have the Love of God poured in our hearts , then of coarse we will act according to God`s Will , but if I chose to sit on my backside all day and do nothing , does that mean I become unsaved , to be honest , I just do not get how people think works are added to salvation...Works follow we know that , some seasons nothing , some seasons plenty , how many ?...xox...

Thanks for that thought, only God knows our true heart. So we need to stay close to God. Bless you.

 

[BillG]

Thanks for that thought, only God knows our true heart. So we need to stay close to God. Bless you.

Do you think that even when we are not close to infactb we are?

Have a think about what I'm trying to say.
Would you mind doing that for me and then answer.

Bill

 

[benhur]

I agree with your point, and just to add that there is no plan of salvation for the fallen angels. Interesting too is how God refers to the angels who stayed as being His elect angels.

There will be many people on judgment day saying "Lord, Lord" who "believed" and called themselves christians, but they never had faith in Jesus alone for salvation. They were always trying to add something to the cross.

They were still IN Adam... never made alive in Christ.

For all true believers there is a natural tendancy to want to be involved in good works in the love of Jesus, would you agree?

 

[Gabriel2020]

No........................................