Not By Works
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A
Why do you think he is flinging them at you?
His words are abrasive. However does that mean they are untrue?
People who put faith in their works and earning their way to heaven are psuedo-Christians.
Yet i didn't place you in that category.
Hmmm reading this thread backwards can leave much to be desired
His words are abrasive. However does that mean they are untrue?
People who put faith in their works and earning their way to heaven are psuedo-Christians.
Yet i didn't place you in that category.
Hmmm reading this thread backwards can leave much to be desired
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A
Some people think God writes His laws in our hearts all at once...like a software download.
I believe it's more like a painting, God teaches us His laws and how to obey them,one stroke at a time. Some times it takes longer for us to learn certain lessons than others like humbleness, forgiveness and gentleness.
While we are being chastened and corrected from our false beliefs..,tearing down spiritual strongholds that we have built over the years that war against God's truth....it's not pleasant, but it's worth the effort and ensuring what God does to us and learn what He teaches us.
I believe it's more like a painting, God teaches us His laws and how to obey them,one stroke at a time. Some times it takes longer for us to learn certain lessons than others like humbleness, forgiveness and gentleness.
While we are being chastened and corrected from our false beliefs..,tearing down spiritual strongholds that we have built over the years that war against God's truth....it's not pleasant, but it's worth the effort and ensuring what God does to us and learn what He teaches us.
My question was not have you ever sinned. ALL of us have sinned (Romans 3:23).
Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. At least you admit that you are not sinless 100% of the time and neither are the rest of us.
So has everyone (including you) transgressed the Law?
To say "that you may not sin" is what we are to strive for, yet to say "And if anyone sins" would be superfluous if we were sinless 100% of the time.
Jesus cannot compromise His perfect, holy standard, but none of us have lived up to his absolute perfect, righteous standard (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 6:23). That's the point.
So you have not perfectly obeyed His Laws and neither has anyone else. Bottom line.
We find mercy and grace through faith in Him and not through our performance (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). It's not about leaving Jesus with the choice to have mercy on us or not based on the merits of our performance. God does not grade on a curve. Jesus clearly drew the lines in the sand on who is and who is not condemned in John 3:18. We will one day either stand clothed in the filthy rags of our own righteousness (unbelievers) or clothed in the righteousness of Christ (believers). There is no middle ground.
Yet none of us have perfectly obeyed all of His commands.
I don't hear anyone arguing about keeping His Commands, which includes loving Him. BTY the word "keep" (Greek word - tereo) does not mean sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time to all of His commands, but means:
Strong's Concordance #5083
téreó: to watch over, to guard
Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Short Definition: I keep, guard, observe
Definition: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.
HELPS Word-studies
5083 tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.
"If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Words" - descriptive of believers. "He who does not love Me does not guard My Words" - descriptive of unbelievers. I've heard numerous people in various false religions and cults claim they love Jesus and guard His Words, yet they pervert the Gospel by teaching salvation by works. That is not the demonstrative evidence of loving Jesus and guarding His Words.
Yes, we demonstrate our love for Jesus by keeping (guarding, observing, watching over) His commandments, but we do not receive eternal life based on the merits of our best efforts to do so. Salvation is found only in Him (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; 10:9; 14:6 etc..).
This is a straw man argument. I don't hear people saying they hate His Commands, but I hear people making it clear that we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God and our best efforts to obey His Commands is not how we receive eternal life, yet others seem to be implying they qualify for heaven under those terms.
So have you answered my questions from post #62241?
What Laws/commandments have you kept? - You did not name the Laws/commandments you have kept, but at least you attempted to answer my question by saying "at times you have kept all the laws that apply to you."
What do you believe it means to "keep" His commandments and do you believe that you will qualify for heaven under those terms? - I did not receive an answer to either of these questions, but as you can see, I explained to you what it means to "keep" (tereo) His commandments and my answer to that question is no, I do not believe that I will qualify for heaven based on the merits of my best efforts to keep His commandments. We are saved by grace through faith, not works.
If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? - I guess you sort of attempted to answer this question when you said, "I have committed sin, so based upon my own worth it would clearly be a no, however I would ask for mercy and leave the choice to Him." Ask for mercy based on what? Your performance or His performance? In Matthew 7:22, we read that many on that day will say to Jesus, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name and in your name have cast out demons and in your name done many wonderful works?" Obviously, these many people are trusting in their works for salvation and not in Christ alone. My answer to that question would be, "Lord, Lord, didn't YOU live a sinless, perfect life, die for my sins, were buried and on the third day rise again from the dead." I trust in YOU alone as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. Praise the Lord!
Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. At least you admit that you are not sinless 100% of the time and neither are the rest of us.
So has everyone (including you) transgressed the Law?
To say "that you may not sin" is what we are to strive for, yet to say "And if anyone sins" would be superfluous if we were sinless 100% of the time.
Jesus cannot compromise His perfect, holy standard, but none of us have lived up to his absolute perfect, righteous standard (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 6:23). That's the point.
So you have not perfectly obeyed His Laws and neither has anyone else. Bottom line.
We find mercy and grace through faith in Him and not through our performance (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). It's not about leaving Jesus with the choice to have mercy on us or not based on the merits of our performance. God does not grade on a curve. Jesus clearly drew the lines in the sand on who is and who is not condemned in John 3:18. We will one day either stand clothed in the filthy rags of our own righteousness (unbelievers) or clothed in the righteousness of Christ (believers). There is no middle ground.
Yet none of us have perfectly obeyed all of His commands.
I don't hear anyone arguing about keeping His Commands, which includes loving Him. BTY the word "keep" (Greek word - tereo) does not mean sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time to all of His commands, but means:
Strong's Concordance #5083
téreó: to watch over, to guard
Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Short Definition: I keep, guard, observe
Definition: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.
HELPS Word-studies
5083 tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.
"If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Words" - descriptive of believers. "He who does not love Me does not guard My Words" - descriptive of unbelievers. I've heard numerous people in various false religions and cults claim they love Jesus and guard His Words, yet they pervert the Gospel by teaching salvation by works. That is not the demonstrative evidence of loving Jesus and guarding His Words.
Yes, we demonstrate our love for Jesus by keeping (guarding, observing, watching over) His commandments, but we do not receive eternal life based on the merits of our best efforts to do so. Salvation is found only in Him (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; 10:9; 14:6 etc..).
This is a straw man argument. I don't hear people saying they hate His Commands, but I hear people making it clear that we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God and our best efforts to obey His Commands is not how we receive eternal life, yet others seem to be implying they qualify for heaven under those terms.
So have you answered my questions from post #62241?
What Laws/commandments have you kept? - You did not name the Laws/commandments you have kept, but at least you attempted to answer my question by saying "at times you have kept all the laws that apply to you."
What do you believe it means to "keep" His commandments and do you believe that you will qualify for heaven under those terms? - I did not receive an answer to either of these questions, but as you can see, I explained to you what it means to "keep" (tereo) His commandments and my answer to that question is no, I do not believe that I will qualify for heaven based on the merits of my best efforts to keep His commandments. We are saved by grace through faith, not works.
If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? - I guess you sort of attempted to answer this question when you said, "I have committed sin, so based upon my own worth it would clearly be a no, however I would ask for mercy and leave the choice to Him." Ask for mercy based on what? Your performance or His performance? In Matthew 7:22, we read that many on that day will say to Jesus, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name and in your name have cast out demons and in your name done many wonderful works?" Obviously, these many people are trusting in their works for salvation and not in Christ alone. My answer to that question would be, "Lord, Lord, didn't YOU live a sinless, perfect life, die for my sins, were buried and on the third day rise again from the dead." I trust in YOU alone as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. Praise the Lord!
My question was not have you ever sinned. ALL of us have sinned (Romans 3:23).
If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? - I guess you sort of attempted to answer this question when you said, "I have committed sin, so based upon my own worth it would clearly be a no, however I would ask for mercy and leave the choice to Him." Ask for mercy based on what? Your performance or His performance? In Matthew 7:22, we read that many on that day will say to Jesus, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name and in your name have cast out demons and in your name done many wonderful works?" Obviously, these many people are trusting in their works for salvation and not in Christ alone. My answer to that question would be, "Lord, Lord, didn't YOU live a sinless, perfect life, die for my sins, were buried and on the third day rise again from the dead." I trust in YOU alone as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. Praise the Lord!
If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? - I guess you sort of attempted to answer this question when you said, "I have committed sin, so based upon my own worth it would clearly be a no, however I would ask for mercy and leave the choice to Him." Ask for mercy based on what? Your performance or His performance? In Matthew 7:22, we read that many on that day will say to Jesus, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name and in your name have cast out demons and in your name done many wonderful works?" Obviously, these many people are trusting in their works for salvation and not in Christ alone. My answer to that question would be, "Lord, Lord, didn't YOU live a sinless, perfect life, die for my sins, were buried and on the third day rise again from the dead." I trust in YOU alone as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. Praise the Lord!
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Rom. 2:Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
2 cor. 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Ps. 62:12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.
Prov. 24:14 So shall the knowledge of wisdom be unto thy soul: when thou hast found it, then there shall be a reward, and thy expectation shall not be cut off.
Col. 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
Prov. 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.
31 Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.
1 Cor. 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
Yes, Jesus did live the perfect sinless life. And He was tortured and murdered by those who claimed His Father as their God but "Transgressed the Commandments of God by their own man made religious traditions".
And He did this so that this rebellious action, this rejection of His Words and Commands, this disrespect and hatred for the Words and Commands of the Word which became Flesh, in other words, SIN, could be forgiven.
But in all your preaching to Shamah, you never once mentioned the one thing that must take place before these sinful, hateful actions we committed towards God and His Word can be forgiven.
Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Matt. 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham (or Paul, or Jesus) to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matt. 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
I don't believe the Bible preaches that Jesus repents for us, or that He walks for us, not because of men's religious tradition, but according to the Word's of the Christ Himself.
Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
I'm with Shamah on this one.
Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
"Lord, I have belief,(I have faith) help me in my unbelief"(Disobedience) Look up the Greek to find this interpretation.
looked it up. greek word apistia. used 11 times. meaning- unbelief unfaithful distrust.
can also mean without divine persuasion .
why don't you go peddle your lies someone else. or better yet, just stop with all the nonsense you try to push. you will have to answer to the Lord for this attempt to deceive , if you do not stop.
can also mean without divine persuasion .
why don't you go peddle your lies someone else. or better yet, just stop with all the nonsense you try to push. you will have to answer to the Lord for this attempt to deceive , if you do not stop.
I have admitted that I go to a non-denominational, conservative Evangelical type of Church. The Pastor is a Gifted speaker, and his 1 hour sermons NEVER get boring. Perhaps you were in a Church where the Pastor was gifted to Plow, and NOT gifted to preach. I would encourage you to try again:
Hebrews 10:24-25 (ESV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some,
but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
Us 'psuedo Christians' actually use Jesus way more that you do. What he says in the bible is actually important to us, and we actually attempt to do what he asks us to do. Plus we believe in him, have faith in him and trust in his word and his sacrifice, and we love his grace that he extends to all of us. Our theology is just much more well rounded and grounded in all of the bible.
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You get a bit too emotional when arguing about issues at times.
An example is works.
Faith is what saves
Faith without works is dead.
Therefore works must exist for faith to be real.
You keep saying works not required for salvation.
No works, no faith. This is the issue making works required.
An example is works.
Faith is what saves
Faith without works is dead.
Therefore works must exist for faith to be real.
You keep saying works not required for salvation.
No works, no faith. This is the issue making works required.
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It looks like to me that everything Studyman is 'lying about and peddling', is coming right straight out of the bible. So can the bible lie?
This forum is to discuss, with maturity, the differences that Christians have, as we try to establish the right path to eternal life.
For you to tell one Christian to stop lying and peddling his nonsense tells me you need to grow up and learn to hear other people and their views. You do have the opportunity to tell them what you think is the right path, but just because your path is different than another Christian does not give you the right to persecute or malign another Christians path.
I guarantee you that Studyman has spent countless hours in the bible studying how one is saved, he does not deserve to be called a liar. Do you know what the Lord thinks of a liar, he hates them. Studyman would never knowingly lie about this subject. Nor would VCO, decon, truthtalk, or any other person on this forum.
So state your case as persuasively as you can, listen to the other person, take what that person says and respond kindly and rationally and perhaps with your bible learning you will persuade another Christian to your path and all will be well. If not, then part friends and each to their own understanding of the bible passages associated with how we are saved.
This forum is to discuss, with maturity, the differences that Christians have, as we try to establish the right path to eternal life.
For you to tell one Christian to stop lying and peddling his nonsense tells me you need to grow up and learn to hear other people and their views. You do have the opportunity to tell them what you think is the right path, but just because your path is different than another Christian does not give you the right to persecute or malign another Christians path.
I guarantee you that Studyman has spent countless hours in the bible studying how one is saved, he does not deserve to be called a liar. Do you know what the Lord thinks of a liar, he hates them. Studyman would never knowingly lie about this subject. Nor would VCO, decon, truthtalk, or any other person on this forum.
So state your case as persuasively as you can, listen to the other person, take what that person says and respond kindly and rationally and perhaps with your bible learning you will persuade another Christian to your path and all will be well. If not, then part friends and each to their own understanding of the bible passages associated with how we are saved.
if someone attaches a word to a definition to another word, that the word does not have, then I would call that a lie.
now, if he , or anyone, says " in my opinion ", or something like that, then that is fine. we are all free to have opinions . but, studyman gives out his opinions as FACTS, then accuses any who disagrees with his OPINIONS of " being corrupted by a catholic / religious tradition. "
so, there is someone who belittles others who have deeply studied the Bible for years, as if they know nothing. it ain't me.
now, if he , or anyone, says " in my opinion ", or something like that, then that is fine. we are all free to have opinions . but, studyman gives out his opinions as FACTS, then accuses any who disagrees with his OPINIONS of " being corrupted by a catholic / religious tradition. "
so, there is someone who belittles others who have deeply studied the Bible for years, as if they know nothing. it ain't me.