Not By Works

[LW97]

WRONG, the original meaning of LORDSHIP SALVATION, is NOT SINLESSNESS. As Dr. John MacArthur has put it many times from the pulpit, "A Christian is not SINLESS, but as his or her spirit matures by feeding on the Word, they will SIN less, and less, and less."

Like I said, I heard the Term way back in the very early 80's, and I am glad you pointed out that the Armenians, who ADDED the WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS to the Term LORDSHIP SALVATION, and the Calvinists that added DO NOTHING to it, are WRONG. THEY DISTORTED IT TO THE POINT OF PERVERSION.

That Term was used by Dr. MacArthur in the early 80's, possibly in the 70's to; to mean NOTHING MORE than a true Christian will be remorseful over their sin, and out of LOVE FOR JESUS CHRIST, will willingly surrender out to HIM as LORD, meaning MASTER. And as a result, our New born again human Spirit will WANT to confess each new SIN they discover in their lives, and ALL OF THAT IS ONLY POSSIBLE, because GOD'S LOVE was poured into our HEARTS, Rom. 5:5. That ONGOING CONFESS {Greek Perfect present tense implies it is ongoing} in 1 John 1:9, it becomes a continuous LIFESTYLE, of our new nature, of our born again human spirit.

The reason I know so much about Dr. John MacArthur's teaching is, God put it on my heart to tape record 5 nights a week his Sermons for years, from mid-1978 through the Late 80's. I did not know it, but God was preparing me to become a Volunteer Chaplain in the toughest super-max Prison in the California Department of Corrections. I re-listened to every one of those tapes 3 additional times. I had the kind of job back then that I could put my Walkman tape Recorder while I worked.

Are you saying Zane Hodges was an antinomian?

And like Romans 7:25 proofs, we have still two natures.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Are you saying Zane Hodges was an antinomian?

And like Romans 7:25 proofs, we have still two natures.

our flesh has 1 nature (worldly... sinful ....desires pleasure)

our God given quickened spirit has 1 nature (heavenly.... righteous... desires to be perfect and holy)


i believe you two are going over semantics

paul also says
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.



i believe VCO is speaking of our true self

the new man
new heart specifically

(what we are judged by)


and youre speaking of the flesh as well as the new man

 

[LW97]

our flesh has 1 nature (worldly... sinful ....desires pleasure)

our God given quickened spirit has 1 nature (heavenly.... righteous... desires to be perfect and holy)


i believe you two are going over semantics

paul also says
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.



i believe VCO is speaking of our true self

the new man
new heart specifically

(what we are judged by)


and youre speaking of the flesh as well as the new man

Amen, that's true!

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Amen, that's true!

maybe instead of "what we are judged by"

i should have said

the only part of us that lasts judgement


we are judged by the righteousness of Jesus

 

[LW97]

maybe instead of "what we are judged by"

i should have said

the only part of us that lasts judgement


we are judged by the righteousness of Jesus

[video=youtube;Wx56iNzyoWg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx56iNzyoWg
[/video]

I agree with you and I also agree with this short sermon by brother Steve McVey.

Neither works salvationists nor prosperity Gospel preachers teach true grace.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

[video=youtube;Wx56iNzyoWg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx56iNzyoWg
[/video]

I agree with you and I also agree with this short sermon by brother Steve McVey.

Neither works salvationists nor prosperity Gospel preachers teach true grace.

i havent listened to him

but works salvation points to self

and prosperity seems to deny the fact God uses trials for good

also sometimes have a "hint" of works too

"say-this prayer and you are saved"

uhhhhh no

that aint how it works
lol

 

[LW97]

i havent listened to him

but works salvation points to self

and prosperity seems to deny the fact God uses trials for good

also sometimes have a "hint" of works too

"say-this prayer and you are saved"

uhhhhh no

that aint how it works
lol

True! We are supposed to be neither legalistic nor lawless, but in grace!

 

[Endoscopy]

I could care less about what you find disagreeable.....the BIBLE is the only rule of faith and practice...not some book or creed written by men...maybe that is why you miss the mark so much....too busy pushing a CREED instead of the truth of the scriptures...

HEY LOOK EVERYBODY.....I blind myself by choosing to use the bible only.....that is one of the most ignorant statements made by one who claims to be a believer and totally undermines the Holy Spirit and HIS ability to lead us into ALL TRUTH....wow....very anti-Christian thing to say.....

and the last bolded point...HAHAHHA wow!

Prove the Apostles Creed contrary to the Bible or shut up about it. While the original language of the Bible is the word of God all translations have flaws. So are you conversant in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Jewish ancient Greek? If not you are studying a flawed translation. Probably a very flawed KJV. It suffers from 400 years of language changes. There are words in it that don't exist today and words that have changed meaning.

Your ludicrous claim of Bible only makes you reject the works of sound Christian people writing aids to study the Bible. Your rejection of these demonstrates your blind adherence to a flawed book. All translations have flaws. One thing some of the Bible helps have is discussion of these flaws.

You still haven't told me how you find ALL verses on a subject. To study a subject ALL verses on the subject must be read in context.

So in response to your post.
HA HA HA HA HA HA

 

[Endoscopy]

True! We are supposed to be neither legalistic nor lawless, but in grace!

Grace is our only hope. Jesus said the law is in effect till heaven and earth disappear. We all have sinned (broken the law) and need the sacrifice of Jesus to remove the penalty of the sin from us. What really amazes me is God caused creation knowing the end from the begining and seeing the cross God still did it. Jesus (God incarnate) suffered horribly for our sins. Romans developed the cross as the most horrible way to die. Some would last for days. To take a breath they had to push up with their feet and/or pull up with their hands, both with nails through them. (Actually the nails went through the wrist. Apparently the Greek word for hand included the wrist.)

 

[LW97]

Grace is our only hope. Jesus said the law is in effect till heaven and earth disappear. We all have sinned (broken the law) and need the sacrifice of Jesus to remove the penalty of the sin from us. What really amazes me is God caused creation knowing the end from the begining and seeing the cross God still did it. Jesus (God incarnate) suffered horribly for our sins. Romans developed the cross as the most horrible way to die. Some would last for days. To take a breath they had to push up with their feet and/or pull up with their hands, both with nails through them. (Actually the nails went through the wrist. Apparently the Greek word for hand included the wrist.)

I would say there's no such thing as abusing grace. We are only walking in grace when we don't sin.

 

[Endoscopy]

WRONG, the original meaning of LORDSHIP SALVATION, is NOT SINLESSNESS. As Dr. John MacArthur has put it many times from the pulpit, "A Christian is not SINLESS, but as his or her spirit matures by feeding on the Word, they will SIN less, and less, and less."

Like I said, I heard the Term way back in the very early 80's, and I am glad you pointed out that the Armenians, who ADDED the WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS to the Term LORDSHIP SALVATION, and the Calvinists that added DO NOTHING to it, are WRONG. THEY DISTORTED IT TO THE POINT OF PERVERSION.

That Term was used by Dr. MacArthur in the early 80's, possibly in the 70's to; to mean NOTHING MORE than a true Christian will be remorseful over their sin, and out of LOVE FOR JESUS CHRIST, will willingly surrender out to HIM as LORD, meaning MASTER. And as a result, our New born again human Spirit will WANT to confess each new SIN they discover in their lives, and ALL OF THAT IS ONLY POSSIBLE, because GOD'S LOVE was poured into our HEARTS, Rom. 5:5. That ONGOING CONFESS {Greek Perfect present tense implies it is ongoing} in 1 John 1:9, it becomes a continuous LIFESTYLE, of our new nature, of our born again human spirit.

The reason I know so much about Dr. John MacArthur's teaching is, God put it on my heart to tape record 5 nights a week his Sermons for years, from mid-1978 through the Late 80's. I did not know it, but God was preparing me to become a Volunteer Chaplain in the toughest super-max Prison in the California Department of Corrections. I re-listened to every one of those tapes 3 additional times. I had the kind of job back then that I could put my Walkman tape Recorder while I worked.

The early elders in response to divisions in the early church created the Apostles Creed to seperate Christians from non Christians. All other issues were to agree to disagree on. Here are two diametrically opposed Christian groups that adhere to the Apostles Creed.

Reformed/Calvinist
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints


Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

Despite these opposing views both recognize each other as Christians because of the Apostles Creed both adhere to. The same with the issues in your post. They are peripheral issues. Important to you but not universally accepted. Agree to disagree!

 

[LW97]

The early elders in response to divisions in the early church created the Apostles Creed to seperate Christians from non Christians. All other issues were to agree to disagree on. Here are two diametrically opposed Christian groups that adhere to the Apostles Creed.

Reformed/Calvinist
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints


Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

Despite these opposing views both recognize each other as Christians because of the Apostles Creed both adhere to.

I believe in the first four points of Arminians and in no point of Calvinism. Falling from Grace is not losing salvation.

 

[Endoscopy]

I believe in the first four points of Arminians and in no point of Calvinism. Falling from Grace is not losing salvation.

You are talking about denominational differences and not whether a person is a Christian or not.That is the most important point. All else are peripheral issues where we can agree to disagree. That is why I posted these two opposing views of peripheral issues. What makes a person a Christian is not negotiable!!

 

[LW97]

You are talking about denominational differences and not whether a person is a Christian or not. That is the most important point. All else are peripheral issues where we can agree to disagree. What makes a person a Christian is not negotiable!!

I cannot know who is saved and who isn't. It's not my job

 

[Endoscopy]

I cannot know who is saved and who isn't. It's not my job

The point is the Creed was created to define what a Christian is. Each of us has to examine ourselves against that standard. God sees into our hearts while all we can see is each other's works. No works implies a dead faith. The problem is discerning the works. Wolves in sheep's clothing know the talk but don't really walk the walk.

 

[LW97]

The point is the Creed was created to define what a Christian is. Each of us has to examine ourselves against that standard. God sees into our hearts while all we can see is each other's works. No works implies a dead faith. The problem is discerning the works. Wolves in sheep's clothing know the talk but don't really walk the walk.

Yeah, that is true. When it says "faith without works is dead", then it talks about justification before men.

 

[Shamah]

Yeah, that is true. When it says "faith without works is dead", then it talks about justification before men.

So people say, however Jesus' brother makes it clear:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:14, “My bro[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]hers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 11, By belief they performed an action;[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:1, "And belief is the substance of what is expected, the proof of what is not seen.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:2, "For by this the elders obtained witness.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:3, "By belief, we understand that the ages were prepared by the word of YHWH, so that what is seen was not made of what is visible."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:4, "By belief, Heḇel offered to Yah a greater sacrifice offering than Qayin, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, Yah witnessing of his gifts. And through it, having died, he still speaks.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:5, "By belief, Ḥanoḵ was translated so as not to see death, “and was not found because Yah had translated him.” (Gen 5:24) For before his translation he obtained witness, that he pleased Yah.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:6, "But without belief it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:7, "By belief, Noaḥ, having been warned of what was yet unseen, having feared, prepared an ark to save his house, through which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to belief.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:8, "By belief, Aḇraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he was about to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.11:9, "By belief, he sojourned in the land of promise as a stranger, dwelling in tents with Yitsḥaq and Ya‛aqoḇ, the heirs with him of the same promise,"11:10, "for he was looking for the city having foundations, whose builder and maker is Yah.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:11, "By belief also, Sarah herself was enabled to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the normal age, because she deemed Him trustworthy who had promised.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:17, "By belief, Aḇraham, when he was tried, offered up Yitsḥaq, and he who had received the promises offered up his only brought-forth son,[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:20, "By belief, Yitsḥaq blessed Ya‛aqoḇ and Ěsaw concerning that which was to come.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:21, "By belief, Ya‛aqoḇ, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Yosĕph, and did reverence on the top of his staff.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:22, "By belief, Yosĕph, when he was dying, made mention of the outgoing of the children of Yisra’ĕl, and gave orders concerning his bones.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:23, "By belief, Mosheh, having been born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a comely child, and were not afraid of the sovereign’s command. (Exo 2:2) [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:24, "By belief, Mosheh, having become great, refused to be called the son of the daughter of Pharaoh,"11:25, "choosing rather to be afflicted with the people of Yah than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a time,"11:26, "deeming the reproach of Messiah greater riches than the treasures in Mitsrayim, for he was looking to the reward.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:27, "By belief, he left Mitsrayim, not fearing the wrath of the sovereign, for he was steadfast, as seeing Him who is invisible.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:28, "By belief, he performed the Pĕsaḥ and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the first-born should touch them.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:29, "By belief, they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, and when the Mitsrites tried it, they were drowned.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:30, "By belief, the walls of Yeriḥo fell, having been surrounded for seven days.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:31, "By belief, Raḥaḇ the whore did not perish with those who did not believe, having received the spies with peace.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:33, "who through belief, overcame reigns, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,"11:34, "quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became mighty in battle, put foreign armies to flight."11:35, "Women received back their dead by resurrection. And others were tortured, not accepting release, to obtain a better resurrection."11:36, "And others had trial of mockings and floggings and more, of chains and imprisonment."11:37, "They were stoned, they were tried, they were sawn in two, they were slain with the sword. They went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being in need, afflicted, mistreated,”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:34, "quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became mighty in battle, put foreign armies to flight.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:35, "Women received back their dead by resurrection. And others were tortured, not accepting release, to obtain a better resurrection.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:36, "And others had trial of mockings and floggings and more, of chains and imprisonment.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:37, "They were stoned, they were tried, they were sawn in two, they were slain with the sword. They went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being in need, afflicted, mistreated,[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:38, "of whom the world was not worthy – wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes of the earth.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:39, "And having obtained witness through the belief, all these did not receive the promise,[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif](11:13, "In belief all these died, not having received the promises, but seeing them from a distance, welcomed and embraced them, and confessed that they were aliens and strangers on the earth.)[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11:40, "YHWH having provided what is better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us."


Here is the Messiah's words in the final written message to humans, He is very clear

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

but we can't let that get in the way of what we have been taught.
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][/FONT]

 

[LW97]

So people say, however Jesus' brother makes it clear:

James 2:14, “My brohers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.”

Well, trusting in Christ's work is NOT faith without works

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, trusting in Christ's work is NOT faith without works

Be careful of him, He wants to push law. And not grace.

 

[Shamah]

Be careful of him, He wants to push law. And not grace.

I want to show Scriptual truth, like this:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and possessing the Witness of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isaiah 51:7, “Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, a people in whose heart is My Torah (Instructions/Law): do not fear the reproach of men, nor be afraid of their reviling.”[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isayah 8:20, "To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."


[/FONT]

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