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For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect." (1 Corinthians 1:17)
If Water Baptism was required, then it would have been foolish of Jesus not to send the Apostle Paul to baptize. We know God cannot make mistakes.
If Water Baptism was required, then it would have been foolish of Jesus not to send the Apostle Paul to baptize. We know God cannot make mistakes.
In Acts 2 we have a record of 3,000 Jews who were converted after the resurrection of our Lord. We know that the order of events is normative because it contains a promise to the Jews who were converted and their children and to those who were far off (Gentiles), and as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself; that would include everyone. The promise is that those who repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The gift of the Holy Spirit comes upon being baptized in water in the name of Christ. That is normative, for everyone! The order of events at the conversion of Cornelius and his people was not normative, it was the exception which God has every right to do. Cornelius and his people received the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10: 45) which includes being baptized with the Holy Spirit. (Acts 11: 16) Upon seeing this Peter asked, "Can anyone refuse water so that they could be baptized in the name of Christ. God used this means to show that the Gentiles were acceptable in God's family. Peter ordered Cornelius to be baptized in the name of Christ in water.
Now their conversion was complete, they had been baptized in two elements, water and Spirit. When they came forth from this baptismal experience, they were born of both water and Spirit. Two elements, one baptism just as there are two elements in the one spiritual birth, water and Spirit. (John 3: 5) In accordance baptism in the Spirit normally follows baptism in water. (Acts 8: 14- 16;19: 5, 6)
God bless.
Now their conversion was complete, they had been baptized in two elements, water and Spirit. When they came forth from this baptismal experience, they were born of both water and Spirit. Two elements, one baptism just as there are two elements in the one spiritual birth, water and Spirit. (John 3: 5) In accordance baptism in the Spirit normally follows baptism in water. (Acts 8: 14- 16;19: 5, 6)
God bless.
That verse only says that if that is what you WISH it to say. That is called "eisigesis"... making scriptures say what you want, instead of what they truly say.
Re read that passage, in context with what Paul is "correcting" in the Corinthian people... if you do that with an honest, open mind, you will see what I was saying in my previous post.
If you wish to continue in eisigesis, there is nothing more to say here.
I wish you well.
Re read that passage, in context with what Paul is "correcting" in the Corinthian people... if you do that with an honest, open mind, you will see what I was saying in my previous post.
If you wish to continue in eisigesis, there is nothing more to say here.
I wish you well.
Indeed, there are several baptisms mentioned in the Bible. Each one has its place and each should be taken in context. What is HERETICAL is to claim that water baptism is no longer valid for believers. That is a very damaging teaching since it literally opposes one of the commandments of Christ for all believers in all ages.
The apostle Paul taught on (a) the baptism WITH the Holy Spirit, (b) the baptism BY the Holy Spirit, and (3) water baptism. So take some time to study Paul's epistles regarding this subject.
The apostle Paul taught on (a) the baptism WITH the Holy Spirit, (b) the baptism BY the Holy Spirit, and (3) water baptism. So take some time to study Paul's epistles regarding this subject.
There's no need to misrepresent what was said regarding water baptism. The peace and comfort comes from obedience to Christ and to the Word of God. Furthermore, if a person deliberately neglects or refuses to be baptized as a believer (1) it is doubtful if that person is genuinely saved and (2) he or she will not be able to really be a disciple of Christ or grow and mature as a Christian. There are many important spiritual reasons for the command to be baptized.
And this is where we disagree. Grace is a very misunderstood word. On its own, it is an abstraction. Jesus Christ never used the word and Paul only used it when dealing with Christians already under God's grace.
There are no scriptures that state "believing" in grace is the moment of the forgiveness of sins. God's grace is the why we have the forgiveness of sins not the when we have forgiveness of sins. Faith alone regeneration theology teaches that the moment we believe in the grace of God we become saved. This is the common thread that runs thru all new age groups but it is a false concept.
Without the proper acceptance, any manner of grace becomes an abstraction. Example: I freely offer my shoes to someone who has none. He accepts my gift but foolishly puts them on his hands and continues to walk barefooted.
Was my gift not grace? Yes.
Did he need the grace? Yes.
Did he properly accept the grace? No.
Will he benefit from my grace? No.
Most importantly, if he had put on the shoes properly would that equal his earning the shoes? No.
That is the point I am trying to make. Accepting baptism for the remission of sins is not an act of earning the remission or glory in the flesh. It is the same as those Hebrews who covered their doorposts with the blood of the lamb. Those who did not faced death, those who did were saved. The grace was there for both but only those who used/accepted the blood properly were saved.
So when is the "moment" of the forgiveness of sins?
Peter answered them, "All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift. Acts 2:38
There are no scriptures that state "believing" in grace is the moment of the forgiveness of sins. God's grace is the why we have the forgiveness of sins not the when we have forgiveness of sins. Faith alone regeneration theology teaches that the moment we believe in the grace of God we become saved. This is the common thread that runs thru all new age groups but it is a false concept.
Without the proper acceptance, any manner of grace becomes an abstraction. Example: I freely offer my shoes to someone who has none. He accepts my gift but foolishly puts them on his hands and continues to walk barefooted.
Was my gift not grace? Yes.
Did he need the grace? Yes.
Did he properly accept the grace? No.
Will he benefit from my grace? No.
Most importantly, if he had put on the shoes properly would that equal his earning the shoes? No.
That is the point I am trying to make. Accepting baptism for the remission of sins is not an act of earning the remission or glory in the flesh. It is the same as those Hebrews who covered their doorposts with the blood of the lamb. Those who did not faced death, those who did were saved. The grace was there for both but only those who used/accepted the blood properly were saved.
So when is the "moment" of the forgiveness of sins?
Peter answered them, "All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift. Acts 2:38
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Baptism always means with water unless unless stated otherwise. There is a tacit understanding with the word baptism that it is with water just like bathe or shower is understood to be with water when not stated otherwise.
Someone may bathe in milk but unless that is stated the fair assumption would be water.
Someone may bathe in milk but unless that is stated the fair assumption would be water.
DJ2,
I really like how you expressed the concept that correct application is NOT a contradiction with grace....and it is NOT an attempt at earning the grace/gift. If I understand correctly, we may currently disagree on some things regarding spiritual baptism but my opinion is that you did a fantastic job in this explanation. Kudos!
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I really like how you expressed the concept that correct application is NOT a contradiction with grace....and it is NOT an attempt at earning the grace/gift. If I understand correctly, we may currently disagree on some things regarding spiritual baptism but my opinion is that you did a fantastic job in this explanation. Kudos!
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Roger,
I'm glad to see you found the weakest portion to criticize.
Not that it's weak in truthfulness, just that I am weak in knowing how to explain how it works. But I'll try to point out WHY it's true.
Because the bible says we are "buried with him by baptism into his death", what good would that be if he never died? No death of Jesus would mean no burial into his death. If Jesus never died we could only have been buried by baptism into his incompletion.
That's why I said, perhaps clumsily worded, that Jesus death ‘activated’ baptism.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I'm glad to see you found the weakest portion to criticize.
Because the bible says we are "buried with him by baptism into his death", what good would that be if he never died? No death of Jesus would mean no burial into his death. If Jesus never died we could only have been buried by baptism into his incompletion.
That's why I said, perhaps clumsily worded, that Jesus death ‘activated’ baptism.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Baptism is assumed, since Jesus told us to be baptized. If we have faith in Jesus, and what he taught us, then it is assumed we will follow his teaching.
Baptism without faith is just a dunking. So, through the grace of God, because of our faith in Jesus, we are baptized and saved.
Using your logic, we also would not have to believe in Jesus.... just have faith.
Baptism without faith is just a dunking. So, through the grace of God, because of our faith in Jesus, we are baptized and saved.
Using your logic, we also would not have to believe in Jesus.... just have faith.
LW97,
First, I commend you for your diligence/fortitude in answering. Many would have given up on this thread by now. You have not. This is similar to how many might have given up on fighting the early believers, but Saul/Paul simply intensified his efforts...and it paid off when Jesus eventually showed up to him and clarified the truth...although Saul had to give up on some of his most firmly held beliefs to get in agreement with what was actually true.
But back on topic,
Please also notice that Paul did not say that you are saved "by belief".
In fact, I just did a search of the bible and there is not a single statement of ANYTHING, either good or bad, being accomplished “by belief”. The phrase simply does not exist in the bible. Neither is there a statement of anything being accomplished “through belief”.
Please consider the implications of this fact.
“Belief” and “Faith” are not synonomous, equivalent, or interchangeable.
“Faith” accomplishes things. “Belief” does not. This distinction is something the devil has tried to hide from people.
If you replace something-that-accomplishes-a-task with something-that-does-not-accomplish-a-task...will the task be accomplished? (Answer: NO)
So that’s what the devil has worked to do in the church world… to deceive the church into thinking that “belief” is a suitable replacement for “faith”.
I’m hoping you’ll pray about this, because there is so much more than what I am able to include in this particular posting.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
First, I commend you for your diligence/fortitude in answering. Many would have given up on this thread by now. You have not. This is similar to how many might have given up on fighting the early believers, but Saul/Paul simply intensified his efforts...and it paid off when Jesus eventually showed up to him and clarified the truth...although Saul had to give up on some of his most firmly held beliefs to get in agreement with what was actually true.
But back on topic,
Please also notice that Paul did not say that you are saved "by belief".
In fact, I just did a search of the bible and there is not a single statement of ANYTHING, either good or bad, being accomplished “by belief”. The phrase simply does not exist in the bible. Neither is there a statement of anything being accomplished “through belief”.
Please consider the implications of this fact.
“Belief” and “Faith” are not synonomous, equivalent, or interchangeable.
“Faith” accomplishes things. “Belief” does not. This distinction is something the devil has tried to hide from people.
If you replace something-that-accomplishes-a-task with something-that-does-not-accomplish-a-task...will the task be accomplished? (Answer: NO)
So that’s what the devil has worked to do in the church world… to deceive the church into thinking that “belief” is a suitable replacement for “faith”.
I’m hoping you’ll pray about this, because there is so much more than what I am able to include in this particular posting.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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The Gospel
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. [SUP]16 [/SUP]He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. (Mark 16: 15, 16)
What is the gospel? Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, [SUP]2 [/SUP]by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, [SUP]4 [/SUP]and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, (1 Cor. 15: 1-4)
Is it necessary to believe the gospel? For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (Rom. 1: 16)
Is it necessary to obey the gospel? dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (2 Thess. 1: 8)
How do we believe the gospel? We believe when we assent to the truth that Jesus died for our sins, was buried and arose the third day.
How do we obey the gospel? We obey the gospel when we die with our Lord, are buried with Him in baptism so that we might arise with Him in the likeness of His resurrection.
How is obeying the gospel accomplished? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be [SUP]][/SUP]in the likeness of His resurrection, [SUP]6 [/SUP]knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; (Rom. 6: 3-6)
What is the result if we do not believe and obey the gospel by being baptized in the name of Christ? These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (2 Thess. 1: 9)
God bless.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. [SUP]16 [/SUP]He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. (Mark 16: 15, 16)
What is the gospel? Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, [SUP]2 [/SUP]by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, [SUP]4 [/SUP]and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, (1 Cor. 15: 1-4)
Is it necessary to believe the gospel? For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (Rom. 1: 16)
Is it necessary to obey the gospel? dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (2 Thess. 1: 8)
How do we believe the gospel? We believe when we assent to the truth that Jesus died for our sins, was buried and arose the third day.
How do we obey the gospel? We obey the gospel when we die with our Lord, are buried with Him in baptism so that we might arise with Him in the likeness of His resurrection.
How is obeying the gospel accomplished? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be [SUP]][/SUP]in the likeness of His resurrection, [SUP]6 [/SUP]knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; (Rom. 6: 3-6)
What is the result if we do not believe and obey the gospel by being baptized in the name of Christ? These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (2 Thess. 1: 9)
God bless.