Not By Works

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NoNameMcgee

Guest
I believe that is called universalism or something... I've never met anyone who believes that but I've heard about it on the internet.


Are you suggesting someone here believes this when you say "so many people flock to it"...:confused:





is this another strawman?


no one disagrees a genuine faith will have fruit than can manifest as "good works"

(praise God)

but what people reject

is the false doctrine that works are required for salvation
or the false doctrine you can be born again and still end up in the lake of fire

(both lies)
when i say people

i dont mean all people i specifically mean those who believe the true gospel (like TT and VCO)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Can one have fruit without faith?
I would say yes.
Fruit in Scripture denotes the outworking of the Holy
Spirit of God in a person's life as a result of faith,
after being grafted in to the One True Vine, Who
is Jesus Christ, in Whom we place our faith,
and are thereby saved, to do the good works
which were prepared in advance for us to do.


 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Fruit in Scripture denotes the outworking of the Holy
Spirit of God in a person's life as a result of faith,
after being grafted in to the One True Vine, Who
is Jesus Christ, in Whom we place our faith,
and are thereby saved, to do the good works
which were prepared in advance for us to do.




Wow Magenta thats beautiful art work and thank you for this powerful verse as well....:)
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
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dcon said;

Take 1 second and actually think about and ponder what this thread is about.....serious.....it is about HOW ONE IS SAVED not WHAT THEY DO AFTER THEY ARE SAVED.....it IS FAITH ALONE THAT SAVES.....end of story........!

ElAmor said:

To get this over with, i want to ask dcon “HOW IS ONE SAVED"?

the bible tells us about it this way;

Romans 10:8-18 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: THAT IF YOU CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH, “JESUS IS LORD,” AND BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART THAT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, YOU WILL BE SAVED. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And HOW CAN THEY BELIEVE in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear WITHOUT SOMEONE PREACHING TO THEM? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” Consequently, FAITH COMES FROM HEARING THE MESSAGE, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”

It is clear that PREACHING is a WORK necessary for one to BELIEVE and have FAITH and therefore be SAVED.

Another thing we need to notice is that WITH THE HEART WE BELIEVE AND ARE JUSTIFIED and WITH OUR MOUTH WE CONFESS AND ARE SAVED.

Believe and confess are two different words with different meaning, the same as justified and saved.

Romans 10 clearly proves that Salvation is not through Faith ALONE.

BELIEF, FAITH, CONFESSION, REPENTANCE, PREACHING, BAPTISM, OBEDIENCE , FAITH, HOPE, LOVE, WISDOM, HOLINESS, RIGHTEOUSNESS, GOOD WORKS, SERVICE, WORSHIP ETC. ARE ALL WORKS OF SALVATION THAT THE BODY OF CHRIST POSSESS AND DO FOR THE HONOR AND GLORY AND PRAISE OF GOD OUR FATHER AND HIS ONLY SON JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD AND SAVIOR.

Ephesians 4:1-6 Unity in the Body of Christ As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
 
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And like Jesus only had to say once:

"Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” (John 6:28-29)
Clear to all who have the faith to believe it........the simplicity that is found in Christ....
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
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John 2:3-11 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining. Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.

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John 3:19-21 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

John 8:42-47 The Children of the Devil Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
 
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I never saw Jesus hang on a cross or resurrected Jesus

I did not see heaven.

I can not see eternal life.


Faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR, the evidence of things NOT SEEN
But I trust God when he says they happened and are real.
AMEN bro....and I believe JESUS when he said he will never leave me nor forsake me....and that he will keep me BY HIS POWER not what I do....and that HE will FINISH and COMPLETE the work of faith he began in me...and that I have ETERNAL LIFE and SALVATION NOW because of FAITH into his finished work.....etc........
 
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Just as the Scripture says . . . "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. - James 2:18

YEP...and CONTEXT means.......BEFORE MEN....NOT GOD!

Therefore we conclude that a MAN is JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT WORKS <----before GOD
 
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yeah I added him this morning. his slander of you was the last straw.. People want to lie about others. and never repent when MANY PEOPLE are tryign to show them their lie, they deserve to be ignored.
Yeah same here.....his slander, twisted context and flat misrepresentation of things I have said broke the proverbial camel's back....a total waste of time....
 
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Hi EG...Your post reminds me of this Scripture...John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."...

We I believe are also those who have not seen yet believe , that is called faith...xox...
AMEN....BELIEF <----KEY word.......HE that BELIEVES on the SON, though he were dead, YET SHALL HE LIVE.....
 
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VCO said this was "WRONG"! TRuth talk said this was "FALSE"! I guess they agree when you say it, but not when I say it.
They disagree with you because you embellish salvation way beyond faith.....and start adding restrictions, requirements, must haves and other various statements of like caliber and order.......
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Does God need see our works to prove we are saved?
If so, why so?

Maybe he doesn't know until we show him.

Maybe he thinks

"Ah yes Bill is saved today, I wonder if he will show up tomorrow, if not he's out"

Or does he say

John 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Is not James saying the same thing?
I think you know the answer to this question.; God is omniscient and omnipresent an he knows when the sparrow has fallen his eye is on you and I as well. The issue abut James has been gone over by many. James is saying man to man you show me your work with or without faith. Here is what Budman had to say;

Works only justify us before men, not before God. Christians can have a dead (unproductive) faith and are still saved. It seems you want it both ways by using the word "required".
 
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Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
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New International Version 1984 Romans 6:15-23 Slaves to Righteousness What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Does God need see our works to prove we are saved?
If so, why so?

Maybe he doesn't know until we show him.

Maybe he thinks

"Ah yes Bill is saved today, I wonder if he will show up tomorrow, if not he's out"

Or does he say

John 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Is not James saying the same thing?
Hi again Bill maybe I'm missing your drift but her is another bible verse about how God love us very much.
If I miss understood your post please excuse me.

The Omniscience and Omnipresence of God: Matthew10:29-31

29) Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care.
30) And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31) So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
 
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TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Are not works the fruit of faith and if you do not have one you do not have the other?
Yes this is true but in Gods family even if you are a single raisin he still loves us. A woman at our Church worked for 40yrs having various ministries over the years. Last year she passed away and when the Paster talked about her to the congregation he said she "never wanted people to know about her service to God. Sometimes it was just cleaning up around the Church.

God bless!
 
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How much fruit is required to prove oneself?
Just think.....an apple seed falls to the ground, sprouts, is an apple tree from the very micro second it sprouts and takes years of growth and maturity to even bear 1 apple.....yet it was and is an apple tree long before it produces once micro gram of fruit....such is salvation..saved by faith and faith alone = child of God by birth BEFORE any fruit is produced.....or one work other than the work of the Heavenly Father in believing......
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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The problem is atheists ignore the fact God exists. I tell them on a political forum that big bang evolution violates 5 different scientific laws and they mostly ignore that and keep ranting about the fairy in the sky. One tried and failed to prove big bang evolution is fact and fell on his face when I responded with facts to shoot down that theory. They blind themselves to the existence of God. They ignore the miraculous happenings archaeological digs at Sodom and Jericho discovered.

Sodom was vaporized by a pyroclastic (super hot) blast.

Jericho had it's inner massive wall fall outward making a ramp over the smooth ramp and outer smaller wall. The people were massacred, the buildings destroyed by fire and nothing of value was taken. The vats holding the just harvested grain were full and people's valuables were not touched.

Archaeology proves the Bible after enough digs at a site are done. Archaeological digs are done with trenches in a selected area. At one site the first dig showed a poor city. A later dig showed a wealthy city. My archeologist friend told me there could be extremely important evidence just feet away from the dig. That is the problem with trench digs. It would be prohibitedly expensive to do a full site dig.
Apart from cost, modern responsible archeology will NEVER do a full site dig!
They deliberately want to leave archeology still in the ground for following generations who may have better technology with which to do another dig....