Healing through the Son

[stonesoffire]

I don't see this as a sin, but as an unrenewed mind Cee. And not in a punishing kind of way, but failure to obtain because of unbelief. Not refusing to believe, though it could be this for a few, but lack of understanding what these scriptures mean.

I've heard this many times...we must examine our hearts to see if there is any sin...and not take part if so.

This is error. We take communion in our need of all that Jesus has obtained for us through His death...but even moreso with His life. We are lifed by His body and blood. Here is where the scripture comes into play, if that same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead...He will quicken our mortal body. We can be lifed now, and not have to wait for immortality.

So we die from diseases because of lack of teaching truth. Is what I see in failure to discern His body through our communion with Him.

We will however, step over into glory, whether ill or not at some point...unless we are taken.

I forgot the words dwells in you...but not on purpose.

 

[stonesoffire]

Obviously not. Why bring it up?

I brought it up because I see "ill" in the word wicked.

I've fought my way back through the power of the Word, and the prayers in the Spirit. Only one who has battled this way will understand. Now I battle not only for myself, but others.

It's best to know the truth of healing before being struck with the weaknesses of our humanity.

 

[Didymous]

In John 5, we can read of man who not only didn't ask for healing, but didn't even know that Jesus was there offering healing. Perhaps the unbelief isn't so much in whether or not Jesus could heal, but rather in whether or not He was the One who would come.

 

[BenFTW]

I don't believe anyone has said that salvation and healing are interchangeable, through the atonement. So for you to not be healed physically in the natural has no relevance to your spiritual status before God (that is, reconciled and born-again). There are many things that are ours through Christ's finished work, and just because we are not currently experiencing their existence in our lives doesn't make them any less true.

For example, we are reconciled to God and our sins are forgiven. This means that we can go before God without condemnation, having no hindrance to be in His presence. Yet, what is the Christian experience when they have sinned? Guilt, shame, condemnation, and alienation from God. Not on God's part, but theirs. Christ's finished work has brought reconciliation but not all Christians walk in this truth.

The point is that Jesus through His suffering has bought us many things, and many of these things we do not experience due to tradition, theology, and doctrines. Healing, though purchased and applied to us through the name of Jesus, is not something we automatically experience in the natural for different reasons but nonetheless it is still something available to us. It has no relevance to your salvation. It is just one of the many aspects of what the Lord has made available to us, through Jesus Christ.

I think this is the crux of the argument. When it is said that healing is in the atonement people are understanding it as something that happens automatically like the forgiveness of sins, but no one is saying that. We aren't saying that a person comes to faith in Jesus Christ and immediately just as their sins are forgiven them they are in perfect health. What I am saying is that God, the Father has made healing available through Christ, to glorify the Son. It confirms His Lordship, especially is the case when using the name of Jesus.

 

[Didymous]

Ben, you seem to be more able to present your thoughts a little clearer. So then, healing is available for everyone, just not every time? Or is it available every time, but there are things we do(or don't)that prevent it?

 

[Depleted]

Man-made God? You’re incredibly rude. I didn’t ignore anything.

And Paul actually asked to be sent to Caesar. Or else they would have let him go.

Feel free to read it yourself.

You're right about me being incredibly rude. I am sorry. Please forgive me.

I thought you were agreeing with Joan's poser -- the man in the video -- so I jumped the gun.

But, as for Paul giving himself over to Caesar, although, yes, he did, that's a bit like telling you, way back when, who you would be today. Acts is a book that tells what happened over the course of the beginning of that Jesus Movement. Imagine telling Paul who he would become as he was holding the cloaks of the men who stoned Stephen. Would he believe you? Would you believe anyone who told you way back when, that the Lord was going to work something so mighty in you that you would no longer want to jump out of moving cars? A lot had to happen between the beginning and the end. And it happens day-by-day, circumstance-by-circumstance, step-by-step, in God's power, long-suffering, love, and sovereignty, all for his glory and his people's good.

Word of Faith teachings are about jumping the shark to get the good stuff for the person's sake.

I hate that with a passion. I took that passion out on you, and for that I am sorry.

 

[Depleted]

I just don't understand you people..... When a man exercises His Free Will you complain and complain if it is said He has no FREE WILL. Just don't understand......

Who in the world are "you people?" How did free will show up here? And what in the world did this have to do with what Cee said or I said?

 

[BenFTW]

Ben, you seem to be more able to present your thoughts a little clearer. So then, healing is available for everyone, just not every time? Or is it available every time, but there are things we do(or don't)that prevent it?

Yes, and yes? I believe there are people who have the faith to be healed, but are knocking on death's door, and it really just is their time. Its their time to go and be with the Lord. It isn't that their faith was insufficient, but God in His sovereignty has called them home.

There also is the case that we do things that prevent healing, and that can be any number of things. Whether that be our own theological understandings of God, our doctrines, deception, or the timing just isn't right (in God's sovereignty). What I mean by this, is that God is setting up a plan to glorify Himself, in time, and we are hastening to do something that He is wanting to do at a specific time, place, and/or event. I'll give an example.

I wanted to pray for a pastor in the name of Jesus to bring healing to their body, but without me even knowing it, the Lord had my sister praying for him, and leading her to actually lay hands for healing. Had I jumped the gun it would've conflicted with what the Lord already had in motion, certain times and dates (as He led her when to do these things). So, while healing is available there is timing involved, because God is masterfully working things unto His glory, for the sake of us.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I think this is the crux of the argument. When it is said that healing is in the atonement people are understanding it as something that happens automatically like the forgiveness of sins, but no one is saying that. We aren't saying that a person comes to faith in Jesus Christ and immediately just as their sins are forgiven them they are in perfect health. What I am saying is that God, the Father has made healing available through Christ, to glorify the Son. It confirms His Lordship, especially is the case when using the name of Jesus.

According to this theory every believer should be in top physical condition sooner or later -- no sickness, no disease, no disability. But that is pure fantasy.

And if those who insist that the spiritual gift of healing has continued unabated, then every church (Pentecostal or not) should have AT LEAST one healer who can simply touch people and they will be healed (faith or no faith). That too is not evident in the churches. So why are you pursuing this line of thought instead of simply admitting that physical healing is NOT guaranteed in the atonement? However, you do have the option of following Mary Baker Eddy of Christian Science and claiming that it is all in the mind.

 

[BenFTW]

According to this theory every believer should be in top physical condition sooner or later -- no sickness, no disease, no disability. But that is pure fantasy. And if those who insist that the spiritual gift of healing has continued unabated, then every church (Pentecostal or not) should have AT LEAST on healer who can simply touch people and they will be healed. That too is not evident in the churches. So why are you pursuing this line of thought instead of simply admitting that physical healing is NOT guaranteed in the atonement. However, you do have the option of following Mary Baker Eddy and claiming that it is all in the mind.

I'm sorry but God isn't the one picking up your fork, is He? This goes back to what I was saying previously, personal responsibility seems to be ignored for the sake of taking no offense. God heals, but faith without works is dead. God has provided the means by which we can care for our bodies through diet and exercise, but if we ignore His providence in these areas and suffer, who is to blame?

 

[Depleted]

I give you the keys to a Corvette. Then when you need to go somewhere you ask me for the keys to the Corvette. My response, "I already gave you the keys." Every time you need to go somewhere, travel, you come to me and ask, "Can you give me the keys?" My response? "I gave you the keys." So it is with healing.

We have the keys, we have His promises and His response is to "believe." We keep asking for that which He has already provided through His Son, our savior Jesus Christ. Whether that be healing, forgiveness, or all things pertaining to life and godliness. He has provided it. Christ purchased it. It is ours, by grace through faith.

My uncle really had a Corvette. When his kids got their driver's licence, they thought they owned the Vet, and took the keys. Poor Vet was totaled four time. What they took decades to figure out is what they already had from the time they were born was much more valuable than the Vet. They had their father's love. And what they missed each and every time was the Vet, AND the keys weren't theirs to play with. Too busy admiring the toys to admire the father.

 

[BenFTW]

My uncle really had a Corvette. When his kids got their driver's licence, they thought they owned the Vet, and took the keys. Poor Vet was totaled four time. What they took decades to figure out is what they already had from the time they were born was much more valuable than the Vet. They had their father's love. And what they missed each and every time was the Vet, AND the keys weren't theirs to play with. Too busy admiring the toys to admire the father.

And yet also what is missed is that the toys put forth a heart full of gratitude, and praise. He provides, and we are grateful for such providence. He still receives the admiration He deserves, and we receive the blessings He wishes to bestow upon us. How good is God?

 

[BenFTW]

You're right about me being incredibly rude. I am sorry. Please forgive me.

I thought you were agreeing with Joan's poser -- the man in the video -- so I jumped the gun.

But, as for Paul giving himself over to Caesar, although, yes, he did, that's a bit like telling you, way back when, who you would be today. Acts is a book that tells what happened over the course of the beginning of that Jesus Movement. Imagine telling Paul who he would become as he was holding the cloaks of the men who stoned Stephen. Would he believe you? Would you believe anyone who told you way back when, that the Lord was going to work something so mighty in you that you would no longer want to jump out of moving cars? A lot had to happen between the beginning and the end. And it happens day-by-day, circumstance-by-circumstance, step-by-step, in God's power, long-suffering, love, and sovereignty, all for his glory and his people's good.

Word of Faith teachings are about jumping the shark to get the good stuff for the person's sake.

I hate that with a passion. I took that passion out on you, and for that I am sorry.

*Gets camera*

 

[Depleted]

How is it that Peter could approach the lame man at the gate named "Beautiful" and give him what he has (healing) if Peter did not know God's will in respect to healing? He said, "Rise up and walk!" Now, you might say this was something only an apostle could do, but lets read the verses in context and notice something Peter said about God, the Father.

Acts 3 King James Version (KJV)

3 Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour.
2 And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple;
3 Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms.
4 And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.
5 And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.
6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.
9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God:
10 And they knew that it was he which sat for alms at the Beautiful gate of the temple: and they were filled with wonder and amazement at that which had happened unto him.
11 And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering.
12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus

How does a healing glorify Jesus Christ, the Son of God? How did God glorify His Son through an act of healing? It very well may be that Christ through His bloodshed and suffering purchased it. Notice in verse 6 that the command to rise up and walk was done so "in the name of Jesus..." and it is by that authority healing occurs. Why? Jesus is Lord.

You're still doing the passive-aggressive bullying thing.

Really? Angela might say only the apostles heal?

Should I start saying things like, "Ben might say the moon is made out of cheeses, but..."? Did Angela EVER say "only the apostles heel?" No! So why did you say that? Because that's what passive-aggressives do. They take a lie and bundle it in sugary sweetness to make people think they're being caring and kind. No. Even in sugar a lie is a lie. (BTW, from now on, every time you use that tactic I'm going to start saying, "You might say the moon is made out of cheese," to see how much you like being on the receiving end of passive-aggressive.)

And what else do passive-aggressives do? In this thread, (and other threads from the WoF marketers) they ignore my post asking why Jesus only saved one man at the pool of Bethesda? Simple reasons why it is always ignored.
1. It doesn't fit your narrative.
2. It doesn't fit your marketing.
3. You have no answer, because you don't look deeply enough to see the real God.

Clue: The more you pump your religion (which is not Christianity) on this site, the more ground you're losing for it.

 

[Depleted]

NT and OT -- God keeps his will.

The only difference between OT and NT, is who the parties of the contract were. OT the parties were the Lord and Man. The NT the parties were God the Father and God the Son.

 

[Depleted]

Mostly what you don't do is answer questions about Bible examples that disprove the theories you try to pass of as Bible truth. I'm beginning to understand why some seem impatient with you.

Didy, could you do me a favor? The next time any WoFer does answer questions about examples in the Bible that disproves their theories, could you bring it to my attention? I might have missed it, because in my mind it isn't "mostly." It's "always."

 

[BenFTW]

You're still doing the passive-aggressive bullying thing.

Really? Angela might say only the apostles heal?

Should I start saying things like, "Ben might say the moon is made out of cheeses, but..."? Did Angela EVER say "only the apostles heel?" No! So why did you say that? Because that's what passive-aggressives do. They take a lie and bundle it in sugary sweetness to make people think they're being caring and kind. No. Even in sugar a lie is a lie. (BTW, from now on, every time you use that tactic I'm going to start saying, "You might say the moon is made out of cheese," to see how much you like being on the receiving end of passive-aggressive.)

And what else do passive-aggressives do? In this thread, (and other threads from the WoF marketers) they ignore my post asking why Jesus only saved one man at the pool of Bethesda? Simple reasons why it is always ignored.
1. It doesn't fit your narrative.
2. It doesn't fit your marketing.
3. You have no answer, because you don't look deeply enough to see the real God.

Clue: The more you pump your religion (which is not Christianity) on this site, the more ground you're losing for it.

This is kind of awkward, but... I was speaking to Stunnedbygrace, not Angela. There was nothing passive aggressive about my statements, it was the equivalent of saying, "some people think of it this way." Yeah... awkward.

 

[Angela53510]

Here's an excellent explanation of this.

I remember as a 10 year old boy watching in terror as the communion plate came closer and closer. Why was I afraid? Because there was unresolved sin in my life – I had argued with my sister before church! I knew that those who took communion in an unworthy manner risked condemnation, even death, for the Bible told me so:

1 Cor 11:26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
1 Cor 11:27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
1 Cor 11:28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup.
1 Cor 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.
1 Cor 11:30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
1 Cor 11:31 But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment.
1 Cor 11:32 When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

Thankfully, I was wrong.

This passage above must be one of the most abused and misunderstood passages in the entire Bible. It is regularly used to deny communion to those who need and it is frightening to 10 year olds. It is, in fact, one of the most liberating scriptures in the Bible, yet many believers are condemned by it.

Doesn’t this seem odd to you? After all, this passage was written by the same apostle who said, “there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.” So what’s going on? Did Paul have a change of heart? Is he now saying that God will condemn us if we partake of communion in an unworthy manner?

For if we would judge (diakrino) ourselves, we should not be judged (krino). But when we are judged (krino), we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned (katakrino) with the world. (KJV)

Click on the Greek words italicized above and you will see that diakrino and krino mean to distinguish and decide, while katakrino means to give judgment against or condemn. In other words, the only time Paul refers to bad judgment (the condemning, punishing kind) in this passage, is when he is referring to those who condemn themselves through unbelief and not the Corinthian Christians. (What about when he says “we are judged by the Lord”? See this post.) Contrary to what you’ve heard, this is not about Christians examining themselves to see whether they’re worthy of communion. The Bible never says we damn ourselves by taking it in an unworthy manner.

So what sort of judgments or decisions should we make when taking communion? And what does it mean to proclaim the Lord’s death?

To answer these questions we need to look at the two deeds that are represented by the bread and the cup.

The bread

At the Last Supper Jesus handed out the bread, said it was his body, and told the disciples to eat it in remembrance of him (Lk 22:19). He didn’t say much else because no doubt they could all recall the fuss that happened the last time he said he was the bread of life:

I am the bread of life… I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world… I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:48,51-54)

As a result of these words many disciples turned away from following Jesus (Jn 6:66). To them, the idea of eating his flesh and drinking his blood was repelling. They did not grasp that Jesus was referring to his impending sacrifice – that he would give up his body in fulfillment of Isaiah 53:4-5 so that we might have life.

What does it mean to eat the flesh of Jesus? It means to behold Jesus and all that He has done for you, both at the whipping post and on the cross.

In communion the bread represents his body which was broken so that you might have life and health. This is good news for the sick, but it will have no effect in your life unless you believe it. In the passage above, Paul is exhorting us to judge whether sickness or health is from God. Sadly, many believers are confused about these things.

They think that God wants them sick so they can learn stuff. They don’t recognize (diakrino) that Jesus gave his body so that we might be healed. By failing to honor his body and blood they take communion in a less than worthy manner. It’s like saying, “Jesus was wounded for nothing,” or “by his wounds I have not been healed.”

Sickness and death are part of the curse of sin (Gen 2:17). Jesus died to set us free from sin and all its effects, but we won’t be free unless we put our faith in his work. The Corinthians were suffering unnecessarily because they were not recognizing or discerning the Lord’s body. “This is why many among you are weak and sick and some have even died.” It wasn’t that God was judging them for getting drunk at communion.

They were suffering the effects of sin because they did not properly value what Christ had done on their behalf at Calvary. Because they were not judging themselves in light of the finished work of the cross (forgiven, accepted, blessed, healed), they were still experiencing the punishing effects of sin (rejection, sickness, condemnation). Because they weren’t attributing to Christ the full worth of his sacrifice, they were still suffering – in the language of King James – the effects of damnation.

The cup

At the Last Supper Jesus took the cup and announced a new covenant based on his blood:

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (Mt 26:28)

In fear of eating and drinking in an unworthy manner, many Christians treat communion as a time of somber reflection. But proclaiming the Lord’s death should be an occasion of joy and celebration! Was there ever a better reason to party than this? Think about it: We who were once defiled by sin have been washed white as snow (Is 1:18). Our guilty consciences have been cleansed and our forgiveness has been eternally secured by the precious blood of Jesus (Heb 10:22, 1 Pet 1:19). This is the good news in a cup!

I will provide a line-by-line paraphrase of 1 Corinthians 11:26-32 in my next post, but Paul’s message to the Corinthians can be summed up like this: Judge yourself in light of Christ’s perfect sacrifice. Because of his body and blood, you are forgiven and healed. Learn to discriminate what is from God (e.g., healing) and what is part of sin’s curse (e.g., sickness). Understand that anything that is not God’s will in heaven (there is no sickness in heaven) is not his will here on earth.

When you learn to distinguish what is from God and what is not you are chastened or disciplined (paideauo, literally, trained up or instructed) of the Lord and escape the adverse effects of sin that the rest of the world suffers.

Communion = good news for the sick and unworthy


Are you battling sickness, condemnation and guilt? Then prepare a communion table in the presence of these your enemies and proclaim the Lord’s death! Don’t look at communion as merely a ritual; make it a declaration of faith.

As you take the bread, behold the Lord’s body that was broken so yours could be whole. As you take the cup, discern the Lord’s blood that was shed for all your sins (Heb 10:12). Remind your enemies that they were thoroughly defeated at the cross. Because Jesus has triumphed we can reign in this life (Rms 5:17).

There is no grief or sorrow he did not carry; there is no curse he did not redeem you from (Is 54:4). Judge yourself as God judges you – perfectly righteous, eternally forgiven, and completely whole!

Check out the links in the post., Forgot to post on the bottom the guy who is the little 10yr old boy Paul Ellis .

Which links are you talking about??

I find nothing that links in your posted article, which was obviously not written by you, and not just because you are not a “boy.”
In fact, the best way to link something is either to post it at the bottom of the page, after the article, or make it obvious in the middle.


Try this link:

https://escapetoreality.org/2011/04/10/taking-communion-in-an-unworthy-manner/

Paul Ellis again, from the copy and paste queen. Just for once, answer a post in your own words. That way we will know you are not a zombie or troll. Then again.....

 

[blue_ladybug]

Just for clarification, because somehow it's showing that I originally posted what Joanie wrote, that is HER post, not mine.

Which links are you talking about??

I find nothing that links in your posted article, which was obviously not written by you, and not just because you are not a “boy.”
In fact, the best way to link something is either to post it at the bottom of the page, after the article, or make it obvious in the middle.


Try this link:

https://escapetoreality.org/2011/04/10/taking-communion-in-an-unworthy-manner/

Paul Ellis again, from the copy and paste queen. Just for once, answer a post in your own words. That way we will know you are not a zombie or troll. Then again.....

 

[blue_ladybug]

Referring to the post #278 by Angela.

Just for clarification, because somehow it's showing that I originally posted what Joanie wrote, that is HER post, not mine.