Not By Works

Endoscopy · Apr 2, 2018

Point out for me please my lack of Bible knowledge. Keep in mind I am Reformed/Calvinist in my beliefs so don't use denominational differences. I keep Bible Gateway on my smart phone in my Chrome browser. I also use it on my tablet and computer. That way I can use different translations. I normally use NIV and AMPC. I reject KJV for being out of date with many language changes over the 400 years since it was translated.

TruthTalk · Apr 2, 2018

Endoscopy said:

No thank you Endoscopy, after following conversations between you and other posters, I have lost track of your remarks and I am surely not going to go over page after page looking for them. With your credentials as an Elder and Deacon of the Church, I surely hope and pray God will bless your ministry.

God bless

Endoscopy · Apr 2, 2018

TruthTalk said:

Don't make accusations that you are not willing to back up. If I am in error about anything Biblical I want to know it. I never claimed to be perfect. Why didn't you point them out at the time?

Shamah · Apr 2, 2018

Cee said:

I wrote this in response to your lengthy response. I dealt with the first point you made. Which is show Jesus is our Rest through Scripture and I did.

Hebrews 4 is crystal clear that Jesus is the Sabbath that God instituted. And I could go through other chapters, but I decided to go through each verse in Hebrews 4 to show the thought that Paul is making. I can deal with these other Scriptures, you are posting, but not if you refuse to look at Hebrews 4 and deal specifically with what I typed. Because that would just be a waste of time, for me to go through and address each one, if you refuse to look at the context and ideas being presented.

When I look at something, I ask Holy Spirit for guidance, I look at the original languages, I read a few commentaries, and then I look at the entire scope of the Bible. It takes me quite a bit of time because I am continually seeking to grow through the process. I have to be okay with willing to be wrong, before I'll be able to truly see the Truth of what He is teaching me.

I have spent more than an hour typing a response, I am finishing it up now, I hope you read and consider it.

Shamah · Apr 2, 2018

I going to break up my reply into multiple posts because it will not fit into a single post and it will be easier to read. Also, I could take a week or a month putting this together but an hour will have to do.

Cee said:

I have spent many days studying Hebrews, wit h one of the focus points being on chapter 4,chapter 3 leads into what is being explained in chapter 4;

Hebrews 3:7-19, “Therefore, as the Set-apart Spirit says, “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tried Me, proved Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways. As I swore in My wrath, ‘If they shall enter into My rest...’ Look out, brothers, lest there be in any of you a wicked heart of unbelief in falling away from the living Elohim, but encourage one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened by the deceivableness of sin. For we have become partakers of Messiah if we hold fast the beginning of our trust firm to the end, while it is said, “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” For who, having heard, rebelled? Was it not all who came out of Mitsrayim, led by Mosheh? And with whom was He grieved forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter into His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they were unable to enter in because of unbelief.”

Exodus 16:25-28, "16:25, "And Mosheh said, “Eat it today, for today is a Sabbath to יהוה, today you do not find it in the field."16:26, "“Gather it six days, but on the seventh day, which is the Sabbath, there is none.”"16:27, "And it came to be that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none."16:28, "And יהוה said to Mosheh, “How long shall you refuse to guard My commands and My Torah?”

Enter in what/where? It is a metaphor using the promised land of physical Israyl comparing it to the kingdom of Yah that is coming; thus;

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10, “Clear evidence of the righteous judgment of יהוה, in order for you to be counted worthy of the reign of יהוה, for which you also suffer, since יהוה shall rightly repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give you who are afflicted rest with us when the Master יהושע is revealed from heaven with His mighty messengers....”

Cee said:

So do we just make up what this means or do we let Scripture Interpret Scripture?

Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"

Psalms 95:8-11, “Do not harden your hearts as in Meriḇah, And as in the day of Massah in the wilderness, When your fathers tried Me, Have proved Me, though they saw My work. For forty years I was grieved with that generation, And said, ‘They are a people who go astray in their hearts, And they do not know My ways. As I swore in My wrath, ‘If they enter into My rest...”

Shamah · Apr 2, 2018

This part is key for understanding what the Sabbath really represents:

Cee said:

Hebrews 4:1-16, “4:2, "Therefore, since a promise remains of entering into His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it."

If this was written AFTER Yahshua/Jesus came in the flesh, and we can enter into the rest He offers NOW why is it written “since a promise remains of entering into His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it” Why would a promise remain, the rest would be here already. No the promise remains because:

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10, “Clear evidence of the righteous judgment of יהוה, in order for you to be counted worthy of the reign of יהוה, for which you also suffer, since יהוה shall rightly repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give you who are afflicted rest with us when the Master יהושע is revealed from heaven with His mighty messengers....”

Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"

4:2, "For indeed the Good News was brought to us as well as to them, but the word which they heard did not profit them, not having been mixed with belief in those who heard it."4:3, "For we who have believed do enter into that rest, as He has said, “As I swore in My wrath, if they shall enter into My rest...” And yet His works have come into being from the foundation of the world."

Hebrews “4:3, "For we who have believed do enter into that rest,...yet His works have come into being from the foundation of the world.”

Context right? “believed” Do you see how in this writers mind there is no difference between believing and obeying?

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 3:16-19, “For some, when they had heard, rebelled. But not all rebelled who came out of Egypt through Mosheh. But with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He vow that they would not enter into His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 4:2, “For this message was preached to us, as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not benefit them, because they did not share in the faith of those who obeyed.”[/FONT]

If the promised land/physical Israyl was used in chapter 3 as a metaphor, and the rest offered is eternal life as written here:

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10, “Clear evidence of the righteous judgment of יהוה, in order for you to be counted worthy of the reign of יהוה, for which you also suffer, since יהוה shall rightly repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give you who are afflicted rest with us when the Master יהושע is revealed from heaven with His mighty messengers....”

and “His works have come into being from the foundation of the world”

Isaiah 46:10, “Declaring the end from the beginning, and from of old that which has not yet been done, saying, ‘My counsel does stand, and all My delight I do.”

Hebrews 4:4, "For somewhere He has said thus about the seventh day, “And Elohim rested on the seventh day from all His works in this again, “If they shall enter into My rest...”

Genesis 2:2-3, “And in the seventh daya Elohim completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And Elohim blessed the seventh day and set it apart, because on it He rested from all His work which Elohim in creating had made.”

Exodus 17:7, “And he called the name of the place Massah and Meriḇah, because of the ‘strife’ of the children of Yisra’yl, and because they ‘tried’ יהוה, saying, “Is יהוה in our midst or not?”

“the seventh day,...the seventh day from all His works in this again,...“If they shall enter into My rest...”

The 7[SUP]th[/SUP] day? 7,000 years, the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] day or years 6,001-7,000 is the Sabbath millennium

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 Peter 3:8, “But, beloved ones, let not this one matter be hidden from you: that with [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If you add up the genealogies in the Scripture we are around the year 6000, nearing the Sabbath millennium...[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hosheyah 6:1-3, “Come, and let us turn back to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. For He has torn but He does heal us, He has stricken but He binds us up[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. After two days He shall revive us, on the third day He shall raise us up, so that we live before Him. So let us know, let us pursue to know [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. His going forth is as certain as the morning. And He comes to us like the rain, like the latter rain watering the earth.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Yahshua came 2,000 years ago.. Hosheyah 6:1-3, “After two days He shall revive us...”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Rev 20:4-6, "And I saw thrones – and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them – and the lives of those who had been beheaded because of the witness they bore to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and because of the Word of Ylohim, and who did not worship the beast, nor his image, and did not receive his mark upon their foreheads or upon their hands. And they lived and reigned with Messiah for a thousand years and the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended) – this is the first resurrection. Blessed and set-apart is the one having part in the first resurrection. The second death possesses no authority over these, but they shall be priests of YHWH and of Messiah, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hosheyah 6:1-3, “on the third day He shall raise us up”[/FONT]

Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat:29-31, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]gather together His elect from the four winds[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], from one end of earth to the other."[/FONT]

Shamah · Apr 2, 2018

Cee said:

I see you skipped verses 5-8, I see why:

Hebrews 4:5, "and in this again, “If they shall enter into My rest...”

Psalms 95:8-11, “Do not harden your hearts as in Meriḇah, And as in the day of Massah in the wilderness, When your fathers tried Me, Have proved Me, though they saw My work. For forty years I was grieved with that generation, And said, ‘They are a people who go astray in their hearts, And they do not know My ways. As I swore in My wrath, ‘If they enter into My rest...”

Hebrews "4:6, "Since then it remains for some to enter into it, and those who formerly received the Good News did not enter in because of disobedience,"4:7, "He again defines a certain day, “Today,” saying through Dawiḏ so much later, as it has been said, “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.” 4:8, "For if Yehoshua (Joshua Ben Nun) had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that."

The true entering of the promised land, “the rest” can not be obtained in the life. It is life in the eternal Kingdom… That is why Joshua Ben Nun spoke of another day…

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10, “Clear evidence of the righteous judgment of יהוה, in order for you to be counted worthy of the reign of יהוה, for which you also suffer, since יהוה shall rightly repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give you who are afflicted rest with us when the Master יהושע is revealed from heaven with His mighty messengers....”

Shamah · Apr 2, 2018

Cee said:

Where does it say they were obedient, it says the opposite of that but you left these verses out.

Hebrews 3:16-19, “For some, when they had heard, rebelled. But not all rebelled who came out of Egypt through Mosheh. But with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He vow that they would not enter into His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

Hebrews 4:2, “For this message was preached to us, as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not benefit them, because they did not share in the faith of those who obeyed.”

Hebrews "4:6, "Since then it remains for some to enter into it, and those who formerly received the Good News did not enter in because of disobedience,"4:7, "He again defines a certain day,

Shamah · Apr 2, 2018

Cee said:

You contradict yourself here, you said they kept it then you said they refused...

Cee said:

But you are making that up, Yahshua teaches different:

He says nothing will pass from the Law:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away." [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]He says the Sabbath is for righteousness:[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 12:12, "And how much more valuable is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it is Lawful to do righteousness on the Sabbath."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Just as YHWH says in the “Old Testament”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isayah 58:11-14, "YHWH will guide you continually, and satisfy your soul in drought, and make fat; (strengthen), your bones. You will be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail. And those of you will rebuild the old waste places; you will raise up the foundations of many generations; and you will be called the Repairer of the Breach, the Restorer of Streets to Dwell In; If you turn away your foot from breaking the Sabbath: from doing your pleasure; your own business, your own pleasure, on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight; the holy day of YHWH honorable, and will honor Him by not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor engaging in idle conversation: Then you will find your joy in YHWH; and I will cause you to ride on the high places of the earth, and feed you with the heritage of Yaaqob your father, for the mouth of YHWH has spoken it."[/FONT]

Shamah · Apr 2, 2018

Cee said:

4:9, "So there remains a Sabbath-keeping for the people of Elohim. (The Greek word is sabattismos, which means Sabbath-keeping.)

4:10, "For the one, having entered into His rest, has himself also rested from his works, as Elohim rested from His own."

Isayah 58:11-14, "...turn away your foot from breaking the Sabbath: from doing your pleasure; your own business, your own pleasure, on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight; the holy day of YHWH honorable, and will honor Him by not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure..."

Hebrews 4:11, "Let us therefore do our utmost to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience."

What was the example of disobedience?

Exodus 16:25-28, "16:25, "And Mosheh said, “Eat it today, for today is a Sabbath to יהוה, today you do not find it in the field."16:26, "“Gather it six days, but on the seventh day, which is the Sabbath, there is none.”"16:27, "And it came to be that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none."16:28, "And יהוה said to Mosheh, “How long shall you refuse to guard My commands and My Torah?”

Hebrews 3:16-19, “For some, when they had heard, rebelled. But not all rebelled who came out of Egypt through Mosheh. But with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He vow that they would not enter into His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

Hebrews 4:2, “For this message was preached to us, as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not benefit them, because they did not share in the faith of those who obeyed.”

Hebrews "4:6, "Since then it remains for some to enter into it, and those who formerly received the Good News did not enter in because of disobedience,"4:7, "He again defines a certain day,

Jeremiah 6:16-17, “Thus said יהוה, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; and find rest for yourselves.” But they said, ‘We do not walk in it.’ “And I raised up watchmen over you, and said, ‘Listen to a voice of the trumpet!’ But they said, ‘We do not listen.’

Hebrews 4:12, "For the Word of Elohim is living, and working, and sharper than any two-edged sword, cutting through even to the dividing of being and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."4:13, "And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all are naked and laid bare before the eyes of Him with whom is our account."4:14, "Therefore, since we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, יהושע the Son of Elohim, let us hold fast our confession."4:15, "For we do not have a High Priest unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who was tried in all respects as we are, apart from sin."4:16, "Therefore, let us come boldly to the throne of favor, in order to receive compassion, and find favor for timely help."

Shamah · Apr 2, 2018

Messiah thinks the Sabbath will still be kept upon His return, and it is for Hebrew and Gentile alike (Isa 56:1-6)

Mat 24:20, “But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, nor on the Sabbath Day.”

Proof this is an end time prophecy is found here, for the Messiah has not yet returned;

Luke 21:30-33, “As soon as they produce leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is already near. In the same way, when you see these things taking place, you will know that the kingdom of God is near. I tell all of you with certainty, this generation will not disappear until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear.”

Mat 24:32-36, “Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches become tender and it produces leaves, you know that summer is near. In the same way, when you see all these things, you will know that the Son of Man is near, right at the door. I tell all of you with certainty, this generation will not disappear until these things happen. Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear. No one knows when that day or hour will come—not the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Isaiah 56:1-7, “Thus said יהוה, “Guard right-ruling, and do righteousness, for near is My deliverance to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who becomes strong in it, guarding the Sabbath lest he profane it, and guarding his hand from doing any evil. And let not the son of the gentile who has joined himself to יהוה speak, saying, ‘יהוה has certainly separated me from His people,’ nor let the eunuch say, ‘Look I am a dry tree.’ For thus said יהוה, “To the eunuchs who guard My Sabbaths, and have chosen what pleases Me, and are holding onto My covenant: to them I shall give in My house and within My walls a place and a name better than that of sons and daughters – I give them an everlasting name that is not cut off. Also the sons of the gentile who join themselves to יהוה, to serve Him, and to love the Name of יהוה, to be His servants, all who guard the Sabbath, and not profane it, and are holding onto My covenant, them I shall bring to My set-apart mountain, and let them rejoice in My house of prayer. Their ascending offerings and their sacrifices are accepted on My altar, for My house is called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”

The Sabbaths will even be kept in the Kingdom;

Isaiah 66:22, “For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make stand before Me,” declares יהוה, “so your seed and your name shall stand. And it shall be that from New moon to New moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,” declares יהוה.”

Messiah says nothing will pass from the Law:

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

Daniyl says an evil force will “think to change times and Laws and will wear out the saints of the most High...”

Daniel 7:25, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

“times” is word #H2166 – zeman, Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) 1) a set time, time, season

H2166 זְמָן zman (zem-awn') n-m., an appointed occasion., [(Aramaic) from H2165], KJV: season, time., Root(s): H2165

H2165 זְמָן zman (zem-awn') n-m., an appointed occasion., [from H2163], KJV: season, time., Root(s): H2163

H2163 זָמַן zaman (zaw-man') v., to fix (a time)., [a primitive root], KJV: appoint.

Psalms 74:4, “Your adversaries have roared In the midst of Your appointments; They have set up their own signs as signs.”

Shamah · Apr 2, 2018

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahanan, saw the holy city, YHWH Shammah, coming down from YHWH out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of YHWH is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and YHWH Himself will be with them, and be their Father.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Council of Laodicea (4th Century) Canon 29[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Definition - “anathema” - noun, plural a·nath·e·mas.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1.a person or thing detested or loathed: That subject is anathema to him.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2.a person or thing accursed or consigned to damnation or destruction.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]3.a formal ecclesiastical curse involving excommunication.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]4.any imprecation of divine punishment.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]5.a curse; execration.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Exodus 31:13, "Speak also to the children of Israyl, saying; Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for they are a *sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am YHWH Who sanctifies you, and makes you holy."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*“sign” is word #226, Hebrew Dictionary,Strong's Exhaustive Concordance,[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]meaning mark, token, sign, consent, flag, evidence of consent.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons - “Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change (Saturday Sabbath to Sunday) was her act...And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ezekiyl 20:12, "Moreover, I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am YHWH Who sanctifies them."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*“sign” is word #226, Hebrew Dictionary,Strong's Exhaustive Concordance,[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]meaning mark, token, sign, consent, flag, evidence of consent.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Our Sunday Visitor, February 15, 1950 - “Protestants...accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change...But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that...In observing the Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the Pope.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Catholic Record, September 17, 1893 - “Sunday is founded, not of scripture, but on tradition, and is distinctly a Catholic institution. As there is no scripture for the transfer of the day of rest from the last to the first day of the week, Protestants ought to keep their Sabbath on Saturday and thus leave Catholics in full possession of Sunday.” [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Peter R. Kraemer, Catholic Church Extension Magazine, USA (1975), Chicago, Illinois, “Under the blessing of the Pope Pius XI” - “It is always somewhat laughable, to see the Protestant churches, in pulpit and legislation, demand the observance of Sunday, of which there is nothing in their Bible.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Our Sunday Visitor, February 15, 1950 - “Protestants...accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change...But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that...In observing the Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the Pope.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against YHWH, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of YHWH, and think to change times and Laws…"[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"Times" is word # 2166 - Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar - 1) a set time, time, season[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Daniyl 8:12, "And a host was given him against the daily by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and succeeded."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Pages 3-15 in The Clifton Tract, vol. 4, published by the Roman Catholic Church 1869 - “I am going to propose a very plain and serious question to those who follow ‘the Bible and the Bible only’ to give their most earnest attention. It is this: Why don’t you keep holy the Sabbath day?... “The command of the Almighty God stands clearly written in the Bible in these words: ‘Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God; in it thou shalt not do any work.’ Exodus 20:8-10… “You will answer me, perhaps, that you do keep the Sabbath; for that you abstain from all worldly business and diligently go to church, and say your prayers, and read your Bible at home every Sunday of your lives… “But Sunday is not the Sabbath day. Sunday is the first day of the week: the Sabbath day is the seventh day of the week. Almighty God did not give a commandment that men should keep holy one day in seven; but He named His own day, and said distinctly: ‘Thou shalt keep holy the seventh day’; and He assigned a reason for choosing this day rather than any other - a reason which belongs only to the seventh day of the week, and cannot be applied to the rest. He says, ‘For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it’, Exodus 20:11, Genesis 2:1-3. Almighty God ordered that all men should rest from their labor on the seventh day, because He too had rested on that day: He did not rest on Sunday, but on Saturday. On Sunday, which is the first day of the week, He began the work of creation; He did not finish it. It was on Saturday that He ‘ended His work which he had made: and God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made.’ Genesis 2:2-3… “Nothing can be more plain and easy to understand than all this; there is nobody who attempts to deny it. It is acknowledged by everybody that the day which Almighty God appointed to be kept holy was Saturday, not Sunday. Why do you then keep holy the Sunday and not Saturday? “You will tell me that Saturday was the Jewish Sabbath, but that the Christian Sabbath has been changed to Sunday. Changed! But by whom? Who has the authority to change an express commandment of Almighty God? When God has spoken and said, ‘Thou shalt keep holy the seventh day’, who shall dare to say, ‘Nay, thou mayest work and do all manner of worldly business on the seventh day: but thou shalt keep holy the first day in its stead?’ This is a most important question, which I know not how you answer… “You are a Protestant, and you profess to go by the Bible and the Bible only; and yet, in so important a manner as the observance of one day in seven as the holy day, you go against the plain letter of the Bible, and put another day in the place of that day which the Bible has commanded. The command to keep holy the seventh day is one of the Ten Commandments; you believe that the other nine are still binding. Who gave you authority to tamper with the fourth? If you are consistent with your own principles, if you really follow the Bible, and the Bible only you ought to be able to produce some portion of the New Testament in which this fourth commandment is expressly altered.” Excerpts from “Why Don’t You Keep Holy the Sabbath Day?”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Catholic Encyclopaedia, vol. 4, “The Ten Commandments”, 1908 edition by Robert Appleton Company; and 1999 Online edition by Kevin Knight, Imprimatur, John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York - “Written by the finger of God on two tables of stone, this Divine code (ten commandments) was received from the Almighty by Moses amid the thunders of Mount Sinai...Christ resumed these Commandments in the double precept of charity--love of God and of the neighbour; He proclaimed them as binding under the New Law in Matthew 19 and in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5)...The (Catholic) Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord’s Day...He (God) claims one day out of the seven as a memorial to Himself, and this must be kept holy...”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism On the Obedience Due to the Church, 3rd edition, Chapter 2, p. 174 (Imprimatur, John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of New York) -[/FONT]

“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Question: How prove you that the church had power to command feasts and holydays?[/FONT]

“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Answer: By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of and therefore they fondly contradict themselves by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.[/FONT]

“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Question: Have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept?[/FONT]

“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Answer: Had she not such power, she could not a done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; -she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day of the week, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]St. Catherine Church Sentinel, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995 - “Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. ‘The day of the Lord’ was chosen, not from any direction noted in the Scriptures, but from the (Catholic) Church’s sense of its own power...People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About, 1927 edition, p. 136. - “Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday...Now the Church...instituted, by God’s authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same Church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was made. We have, therefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for Sunday.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957 -[/FONT]

“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Question - Which is the Sabbath day?[/FONT]

“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Answer - Saturday is the Sabbath day.[/FONT]

“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Question - Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?[/FONT]

“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Answer - We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, Md. (1877-1921), in a signed letter - “Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day - Saturday - for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes. Did Christ change the day’? I answer no!”[/FONT]
“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Faithfully yours, J. Card. Gibbons.”[/FONT]

Shamah · Apr 2, 2018

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Daniel 7:25, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws...."[/FONT]

preston39 · Apr 2, 2018

Endoscopy said:

E....,

The Bible does not change.

Shamah · Apr 2, 2018

Finally I want to say, I rushed this study, I could have taken day putting it togather, I could have added more Scripture and more evidence. If we were sitting side by side we could go back an forth rather than this medium. In any case may YHWH guide us all to the truth, you and I both, and eveyone seeking.

Cee · Apr 2, 2018

Shamah said:

No my friend, the promise remained because they refused to believe Christ was the ceasing of their works. Not because Christ wasn't enough. The rest is here now in Christ. But it is through FAITH that we enter in.

Yes, believing in Christ is obeying the Gospel. I agree.

John 6:29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

I see nothing else to comment on that refers to Hebrews 4. Hebrews 4 says there is a promise of rest remaining for those are in unbelief, but those who believed our gospel, they have entered into Christ. And He is the promise land.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, ‘Lo, it is here!’ or ‘Lo, it is there!’ For behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.”

Shamah · Apr 2, 2018

OK I can see you are not really considering or fully readin it, there is no way you could have read through that so fast and thought about it using anything than your mind already being made up.

Cee said:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Habakkuk 2:4, "Behold the proud, his soul is not right in him; but the just will live by faith."[/FONT]

“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]faith” is word #H530 [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]אֱמוּנָה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]'emuwnah (em-oo-naw') n-f., [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]אֱמֻנָה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]'emunah (em-oo-naw') [shortened], 1. (literally) firmness., 2. (figuratively) security., 3. (morally) fidelity.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][feminine of H529], KJV: faith(-ful, -ly, -ness, (man)), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily. , Root(s): H529

“faith” is word #H530 Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) 1) firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, steadiness

“faith” #H530 Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
Feminine of H0529; literally firmness; figuratively security; moral fidelity:—faith (-ful, -ly, -ness, [man]), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily.

Strong's (Hebrew & Chaldee Dictionary of the Old Testament) #530. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]אֱמוּנָה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
emunah (53c); from 539; firmness, steadfastness, fidelity[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:19-20, “You believe that Yah is one. You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder! But do you wish to know, O empty man, that the belief without the works is dead?”[/FONT]

“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]believe” is word #G4100 - pisteuó: to believe, entrust, Original Word: πιστεύω, Part of Speech: Verb, Transliteration: pisteuó, Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o), Short Definition: I believe, have faith in, Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so belief without works is dead also."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."[/FONT]

Except Scripture says different:

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10, “Clear evidence of the righteous judgment of יהוה, in order for you to be counted worthy of the reign of יהוה, for which you also suffer, since יהוה shall rightly repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give you who are afflicted rest with us when the Master יהושע is revealed from heaven with His mighty messengers....”

Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"

Hebrews 3:16-19, “For some, when they had heard, rebelled. But not all rebelled who came out of Egypt through Mosheh. But with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He vow that they would not enter into His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

Hebrews 4:2, “For this message was preached to us, as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not benefit them, because they did not share in the faith of those who obeyed.”

Hebrews "4:6, "Since then it remains for some to enter into it, and those who formerly received the Good News did not enter in because of disobedience,"4:7, "He again defines a certain day,

Cee said:

How do we do this? According to the word?

Acts 7:37-38, “This is the Mosheh who said to the children of Yisra’yl, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear.’ This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness with the Messenger who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received the living Words to give to us.”

John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

*Mosheh wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, “I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it.”

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”

Acts 3:22-23, “For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”

Cee said:

Ahh so using the entire council of YHWH to prove what the Sabbath represents is not a part of this discussion? Nice way to ignore...

Cee said:

So do you not believe in an eternal Kingdom and eternal life?

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 19:27-29, “Then Kĕpha answering, said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. What then shall we have? And [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]said to them, “Truly I say to you, when the Son of Aḏam sits on the throne of His esteem, you who have followed Me in the rebirth, shall also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Yisra’yl. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My Name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.”[/FONT]

Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"

Cee · Apr 2, 2018

Shamah said:

I skipped verses 5-8 for the sake of brevity, please don't assume I have any malicious intent.

Joshua spoke of another day because Christ is that rest. He was pointing to Christ. They didn't enter in because they weren't obedient to the gospel. Read the next verse to understand what Joshua was point to.

9 So then, there remains Sabbath rest for the people of God,10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also [SUP]u[/SUP]rested from his works as God did from his.

Notice here the Author isn't pointing to a Kingdom to come for their rest. He says whoever HAS entered in has rested from his works. Has means they already have it. They aren't waiting for it.

This single verse dismantles the argument that the Sabbath rest is coming in the future. Because if it was coming in the future the Author shows that we can enter in, we need to enter in, and entering in is resting from our works like God rested from His.

But why does the Author bring up Joshua? Because Israel couldn't enter in through Joshua because Christ is that true rest. Joshua was pointing to their need for Christ. As their true Rest.

Not sure why you keep quoting this Scripture, just because it says we will rest with them, doesn't mean that Jesus isn't our Sabbath rest. This isn't what this chapter is about, but Hebrews 4 is written about the rest of God. So we can't look at 2 Thess to disagree with the clear writings of Hebrews 4.

But I'll quickly address it, this word, isn't resting from labors. It's actually better translated as relief or repose. It's not the same Greek word that Hebrews 4 uses in describing the Sabbath rest of God. So we can't compare these 2 Scriptures because they are talking about different things.

The word being used in 2 Thess 1:7 is anesin. From the root word: Anesis.

Here's the Strong's for it:

Original Word: ἄνεσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anesis
Phonetic Spelling: (an'-es-is)
Short Definition: relief, remission, indulgence, freedom, rest
Definition: relief, remission, indulgence, freedom, rest.

What this word is being used for is relief. Respite. It's talking about getting a break from a continual onslaught of attack. This isn't resting from our labors, it's being able to rest from continual trials and tribulations.

The Greek word for rest being used in Hebrews 4 is katapausin.

Taken from the Greek root word katapusis.

Here's the Strong's for it.

katapausis: rest

Original Word: κατάπαυσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: katapausis
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ap'-ow-sis)
Short Definition: resting, rest
Definition: (in the Old Testament of the rest attained by the settlement in Canaan), resting, rest, dwelling, habitation.

The root origin of kata pausis is this...
Word Origin
from kata and pauó
Definition: To cause to cease, to rest
NASB Translation
given...rest (1), rested (2), restrained (1).

You can see these words are completely different. One is a place of relief from attack. And the other is a rest from labors. And this is God's true rest. His Sabbath. As outlined in Hebrews 4 not 2 Thess 1:7.

TruthTalk · Apr 2, 2018

Endoscopy said:

I did point them out and you promptly explained them away. This is why I stopped having conversations with you, because I felt like you were not hearing my side of the conversation. I wish you well and pray God will continue to bless your ministry. Again I cannot go through pages and pages of postings.

God bless

Shamah · Apr 2, 2018

Cee said:

Ok 2 things, if I may.

Then what do these verses mean?

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 Thessalonians 1:5-10, “Clear evidence of the righteous judgment of [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], in order for you to be counted worthy of the reign of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], for which you also suffer, since [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה shall rightly repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give you who are afflicted rest with us when the Master [/FONT]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]is revealed from heaven with His mighty messengers....”

Revelation 14:12-13, "14:12, "Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones,c here are those guarding the commands of Elohim and the belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"[/FONT]

and do the prophets speak of future things as if they have already happed because:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isaiah 46:10, “Declaring the end from the beginning, and from of old that which has not yet been done, saying, ‘My counsel does stand, and all My delight I do.”[/FONT]

here is an example;

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ezekiyl 28:13-19, “You were in Ĕḏen, the garden of the Most High. Every precious stone was your covering: the ruby, topaz, and diamond, beryl, shoham, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald and gold. The workmanship of your settings and mountings was prepared for you on the day you were created. You were the anointed keruḇ that covered. And I placed you, you were on the set-apart mountain of Yah. You walked up and down in the midst of stones of fire. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you. By the greatness of your trade you became filled with violence within, and you sinned. So I thrust you from the mountain of Yah, and I destroyed you, O covering keruḇ, from the midst of the stones of fire. Your heart was lifted up because of your loveliness, you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendour. I threw you to the earth, I laid you before sovereigns, to look at you. You profaned your set-apart places by your many crookednesses, by the unrighteousness of your trading. Therefore I brought forth fire from your midst. It has devoured you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth before the eyes of all who see you. All who knew you among the peoples were astonished at you. Waste you shall be, and cease to be, forever.”[/FONT]

"[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Therefore I brought forth fire from your midst. It has devoured you[/FONT]"

yet satan has not yet been devoured....

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