Not By Works

[ljs]

Jesus says to take care of the naked and the hungry and to not turn them away and say be satisfied. When I see that kind of need with my eyes in my community and I have some money that I can give to help these people, then I will do it.

If I do not do it, then I will be the hypocrite that says they have great faith, but turns away the naked and the hungry and says unto them, be satisfied. God then will treat you and your need to be saved in the same way. IOW if you help God take care of the needy, he will take care of you.

Same logic when Jesus says if you do not forgive men their trespasses against you, God will not forgive your trespasses against him. IOW if you do this, I God will do this. OSAS is not true, unless you do what God says.

Gracers say that these examples are not about salvation, but just about your reward in heaven. They are wrong. Because you cannot enter into the KOG in the first place if you are still full of sin.

ben , dont you understand that once you trust Christ and are saved , you are never looked on as "full of sin" by God
We are looked on by God as righteous , even when we do sin , because its Jesus's righteousness that the Father sees , not our own

 

[benhur]

Amen decon, seems like a lot of posters here are fixated on James ch.2 and then they go on to say you better have works or you will lose your eternal salvation. All of these posters who use OSAS as a way to bring down the "eternal security" of the believer are barking up the wrong tree. "OSAS is not a "Christian Doctrine", if you please, OSAS is not a Christian Doctrine, however, the
"Eternal Security" of the believer is a "Christian Doctrine"

When you see "OSAS" pop up onto a post I can guaranty the poster will later tell you how you can lose your salvation and their "go to book" is James Ch.2; news flash, a Christian cannot lose their "Eternal Salvation" It is obvious to me and a few others that they came here to this thread from a different forum with an "agenda" They have been taught and coached how to us a few verses and phrases like OSAS that they hope will win over a few converts, Oh but they thought wrong.

I have never met a more helpful and giving group of people than Christian's and to throw guilt trips around to a beautiful saved group of Christian's by using James Ch.2 is just a the wrong thing to do. Its almost like we are not even playing on the same team and our opponent is trying to bring real loving and caring Christian's down. And where in the world did these people come from with their Christian world view, it is just awful if you ask me. "lose your eternal salvation" never happen.

"And they shall never perish" V.28
The Good Shepherd and His Sheep: John10:26-28

26) but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
27) My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28) "I give them eternal life, 'and they shall never perish'; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

Can you tell me the difference between OSAS and the doctrine of 'eternal security'?

I know you don't like to communicate with me, but humor me and tell me the difference.

 

[benhur]

I would not go as far as to say that works has "zero" to do with salvation ... If that is true then how do you explain the verses below ? ...

James 2:26 [SUP]26[/SUP]As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
James 2:17-18 [SUP]17[/SUP]In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. [SUP]18[/SUP]But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

Truly I believe many are arguing here for no reason ... According to the Bibles many verses both works and faith have an impact upon one's salvation ...

I will tell you how Martin Luther explained those verses. He said they are false doctrine.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

ben , dont you understand that once you trust Christ and are saved , you are never looked on as "full of sin" by God
We are looked on by God as righteous , even when we do sin , because its Jesus's righteousness that the Father sees , not our own

hit the nail on the head....

great post sister

 

[benhur]

And context would prove your stance as error.......

Romans-->We CONCLUDE a man is JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT WORKS

JAMES speaks to the above faith being SEEN by MEN by works.....

There is no contradiction and WORKS HAVE ZERO to do with GAINING, KEEPING, MAINTAINING or EMBELLISHING salvation which is a FREE GIFT OF GRACE and eternal...

NOT BY WORKS of RIGHTEOUSNESS which we have DONE, but ACCORDING to HIS MERCY has he SAVED US (PAST TENSE)

Way to feed the working for trolls.....

Explain this line: JAMES speaks to the above faith being SEEN by MEN by works.....
I do not see how this line somehow reconciles the 2 thoughts. Will you expand on this?

 

[benhur]

Hi Pontiac, does this verse have any impact on you; saved by grace, "not by works, so that no one can boast"

we are "saved unto good works" we are not save by our good works. It is Jesus who shed His blood on the cross that saves us, not our good works so that no one can boast. Does this make any sense to you? And also if I may ask, are you Catholic, yes or no. If you are Catholic it would help to understand what your theological background is and God bless.

Alive in Christ: Ephesians2:8-10
8) For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9) not by works, so that no one can boast.
10) For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Save to do good works but we are not saved by our good works, see the difference?

All James is saying is that if you do not the works you were saved unto, then you were not really saved in the beginning, and you won't be saved in the ending.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then tell me the context and who he was speaking to. Let's see if it makes a difference.

wow. really?

You have been told how many times now and your still asking?

He spoke to those who CLAIMED to have faith. NOT to those who REALLY HAD FAITH. don't you know the difference?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

All James is saying is that if you do not the works you were saved unto, then you were not really saved in the beginning, and you won't be saved in the ending.

Again WRONG (you focus to much on self (works) my friend)

He is saying if you have a claimed faith (dead) only, it can't save you, because true living faith works. His focus is a dead faith vs true living faith. Not works.

Works are a byproduct of faith, Yet it is ONLY faith that saved via grace.

 

[benhur]

Hogwash- He spoke of those who had a claimed faith only (hearers of the word but not doers) vs those who had true living faith (not only hearers of the word but doers) .

Then you are OK, right? But like I say, if you do not the works you were saved unto to do, then what?

Does that make you a hearer only? And if you are a hearer only, then the words of James start to apply to you.

I figure I am speaking to a hearer and doer, so I figure you will be OK, but there are a lot of good Christians that will find themselves considered hearers only, that will be very sorry, when God says, I never knew you.

 

[TruthTalk]

They are fighting calvanism not christianity proper, from what I have seen.

Hi E-g, If this were true I would expect that "Calvanism would be at the fore front of their debate and it is not, they are only arguing that a believer with out enough works will lose their salvation, no mention of Calvin or TULIP in this debate at all. I will keep what you say in mind when posting, God bless.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Then you are OK, right? But like I say, if you do not the works you were saved unto to do, then what?

Does that make you a hearer only? And if you are a hearer only, then the words of James start to apply to you.

I figure I am speaking to a hearer and doer, so I figure you will be OK, but there are a lot of good Christians that will find themselves considered hearers only, that will be very sorry, when God says, I never knew you.

you are saved before you produce works

by grace through faith

and once God puts a new spirit and heart in you

you are always saved...

we are not of them who fall away into unbelief

and those who depart from faith were not of us



but also

when God puts a new heart and spirit in one of His adopted children sealed....
and kept by His power


the faith that precedes this....
has evidence in works after this...


you pretend as if one of Gods children kept by His power can lose his salvation despite the promises of God based on the works of this man/woman


God doesnt wait until He sees this man/womans works to determine if this man/womans faith was genuine before He adopts them


He sees the heart



MEN see works

which is the whole point dcon tried to show you..

 

[benhur]

Whatever,

I just take james ot say what he says.

WHat does it PROFIT a person if they CLAIM to have faith, but have no work? CAN THIS FAITH SAVE THEM?

You want to think people who say they have faith but has ZERO ZIP NADA works were saved then lost it. How could they be saved if they NEVER HAD WORKS?

You just want to keep your legalistic mumbo jumbo alive by attacking others, Good luck with that.

Is it not true that we are saved unto good works? Yes.

James is saying that if those that are saved, do not do the good works that they were saved unto, then they are the ones that
he is talking about: hearers of the word only, but not doers of the word, and they were never saved in the first place, and they will be very disappointed to find out that Jesus never knew them in the end.

So if you think you are saved unto good works, the the good works part never takes place, then good luck, you were never saved and your place in heaven was never secured.

Does that make sense?

If you do the works unto which you were saved, no problem, you were saved and you will not lose it. Like I say, I suspect you are one of these.

 

[star]

Works, works, works, keeping salvation, works, works. My, my.

Trolls, trolls, trolls. My, my.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then you are OK, right? But like I say, if you do not the works you were saved unto to do, then what?

Does that make you a hearer only? And if you are a hearer only, then the words of James start to apply to you.

I figure I am speaking to a hearer and doer, so I figure you will be OK, but there are a lot of good Christians that will find themselves considered hearers only, that will be very sorry, when God says, I never knew you.

A licentious person has never been saved, They had a dead faith, End of story.

James is not saying works maintain salvation. He is saying those who believe but have no faith (dead) are not saved, and they need to re-examine themselves. and turn to christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi E-g, If this were true I would expect that "Calvanism would be at the fore front of their debate and it is not, they are only arguing that a believer with out enough works will lose their salvation, no mention of Calvin or TULIP in this debate at all. I will keep what you say in mind when posting, God bless.

OSAS is considered a term whcih comes from calvanism. It is the old Calvin vs arminian debate. If you really talk to people fighting OSAS. (at least in CC) And listen closely, they are arguing against calvanism (what they deem as easy grace, or election)

 

[benhur]

Romans 4:1-2
King James Version(KJV)

1.)What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2.) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

James also had something to say about Abraham:
[h=1]James 2:21-24 King James Version (KJV)
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.[/h]
So yes Abraham was saved, but his works perfected his faith. That is what we have to do. IOW your faith is not perfect until you do the works that you were saved unto to do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is it not true that we are saved unto good works? Yes.

unto? yes, however, we are saved BEFORE we do works though

James is saying that if those that are saved, do not do the good works that they were saved unto, then they are the ones that
he is talking about: hearers of the word only, but not doers of the word, and they were never saved in the first place, and they will be very disappointed to find out that Jesus never knew them in the end.

he never said they were saved, thats your faulty interpretation, he is speaking to those who claim they have faith, and asked them, can that faith save you? Thus he insinuated, they were not saved.

Yes he is talking to hearers of the word only, and yes they will be dissapointed in the end.

So if you think you are saved unto good works, the the good works part never takes place, then good luck, you were never saved and your place in heaven was never secured.

Does that make sense?

If you do the works unto which you were saved, no problem, you were saved and you will not lose it. Like I say, I suspect you are one of these.

Why focus on works? Would you not be better off to focus on others? if i have. True faith why do I have to worry about works?

Do I have to maintain salvation by works? If not. Again, why worry. Should we not be going out. Not looking in?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

James also had something to say about Abraham:
[h=1]James 2:21-24 King James Version (KJV)
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.[/h]
So yes Abraham was saved, but his works perfected his faith. That is what we have to do. IOW your faith is not perfect until you do the works that you were saved unto to do.

*sigh*

YOU BENHUR push false gospel which attempts to give glory to man (self)


no
genuine faith has works....

and you are saved apart from works

Romans 4
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

 

[NoNameMcgee]

*sigh*

YOU BENHUR push false gospel which attempts to give glory to man (self)


no
genuine faith has works....

and you are saved apart from works

Romans 4
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Galatians 3
3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

 

[benhur]

A NEW version of Amazing Grace for the workers for....

AMAZING WORKS that I trust and see
I hope will save a wretch like me
I once was lost and now I plea
My works are sufficient to save me

or maybe just as I am....

Just as I am I Come to Thee
I offer my works and make my plea
Though the blood of Christ was shed for me
It is not enough my works I plea

NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HAS HE SAVED US....

As you have read many times in the bible, the parable of the merciful king. The merciful king withdrew his mercy, why?