GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?
- Thread starter LoveGodForever
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
R
Read the passage. The burden is keeping the law to be saved. Not just keeping the law.
"10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”"-Acts 15:10-11
See, the issue is keeping the law to be saved, not just keeping the law. Keeping the law to be saved is the task, the burden, the yoke that no one can bear.
And Paul says faith upholds the law (Romans 3:31), so we know it isn't the law itself that is the burden no man can bear. Saved men do indeed uphold the law.....through the power of faith and the indwelling Holy Spirit, of course.
"10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”"-Acts 15:10-11
See, the issue is keeping the law to be saved, not just keeping the law. Keeping the law to be saved is the task, the burden, the yoke that no one can bear.
And Paul says faith upholds the law (Romans 3:31), so we know it isn't the law itself that is the burden no man can bear. Saved men do indeed uphold the law.....through the power of faith and the indwelling Holy Spirit, of course.
R
Then what word do you suppose we should put in the verse to complete the sentence in English (the italic words are gaps in the Greek)?
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak."-Romans 14:21 (from https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rom/14/1/s_1060021)
Besides, Paul already said he was talking about holy days too in vs.5. So we know even without vs. 21 that he is talking about the observance of days too.
"5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike."-Romans 14:5
Which is exactly why Paul would NOT address the issue were talking about. It's not a matter of a false gospel vs. a true one. He's talking about matters within salvation that are in dispute among believers. He does not leave matters of salvation itself in dispute.
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak."-Romans 14:21 (from https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rom/14/1/s_1060021)
Besides, Paul already said he was talking about holy days too in vs.5. So we know even without vs. 21 that he is talking about the observance of days too.
"5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike."-Romans 14:5
Which is exactly why Paul would NOT address the issue were talking about. It's not a matter of a false gospel vs. a true one. He's talking about matters within salvation that are in dispute among believers. He does not leave matters of salvation itself in dispute.
Paul makes it pretty clear in Romans 14 that weak and strong faiths can dwell together in peace. The strong are not to despise the weak for what they are afraid to do, and the weak are not to judge the strong for what they have the liberty to do. It's not the strong's job to pander to the weak, but for all to live together in peace. It's every person's responsibility to be fully persuaded in their own minds what is right and wrong to do.
R
Look again at what you're saying. I think you have the one who is strong and the one who is weak mixed up.
The weaker person who's conscience won't allow them to indulge is not to judge (condemn) the one who indulges, and the one who indulges, having the stronger, educated conscience is not to look down upon the one who refrains.
"2One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats"
10But you (you who are weak), why do you judge your brother ? Or you again, why do you (you who are not weak in conscience) regard your brother with contempt ?
-Romans 14:2-3,10
The weaker person who's conscience won't allow them to indulge is not to judge (condemn) the one who indulges, and the one who indulges, having the stronger, educated conscience is not to look down upon the one who refrains.
"2One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats"
10But you (you who are weak), why do you judge your brother ? Or you again, why do you (you who are not weak in conscience) regard your brother with contempt ?
-Romans 14:2-3,10
Yes, Paul is talking about sabbaths. Those who don't observe them mustn't despise those who do, and those who do observe sabbaths mustn't judge those who don't. Everyone has to be fully persuaded in their own minds about what is right and wrong for them to do, and not pander to someone of the different persuasion out of fear of offending or causing to stumble as your doctrine mandates.
R
I guess you got it right. Took me a couple of times to read it.
Yes it is.
Read the passage.
...and to keep what you think about it as your own conviction. Don't leave that part off. That's the whole key to dwelling in peace about disputable matters of what we can and can't do as believers. Let believing law keepers keep the law, and let the rest of the believers stop trying to tell them they're wrong. What's wrong is for them to do what their conscience says not to do. That's what you should be telling believing law keepers is wrong. Instead they get told their law keeping is wrong.
Yes it is.
Read the passage.
...and to keep what you think about it as your own conviction. Don't leave that part off. That's the whole key to dwelling in peace about disputable matters of what we can and can't do as believers. Let believing law keepers keep the law, and let the rest of the believers stop trying to tell them they're wrong. What's wrong is for them to do what their conscience says not to do. That's what you should be telling believing law keepers is wrong. Instead they get told their law keeping is wrong.
Last edited by a moderator:
ReadGal 1:8-10
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
KJV
THIS IS NOT ABOUT A MATTER OF CONSCIENCE
THIS IS ABOUT TEACHING DEPENDENCE ON WORKS
THIS IS INDEED ANOTHER GOSPEL!!!!
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
KJV
THIS IS NOT ABOUT A MATTER OF CONSCIENCE
THIS IS ABOUT TEACHING DEPENDENCE ON WORKS
THIS IS INDEED ANOTHER GOSPEL!!!!
R
Well, you were doing good till you got to this part.
Paul does in fact tell us to not let what we consider to be good (foods, wine, days of the week, etc.) to be spoken of as evil by those who don't consider them good:
"to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. 16Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; "-Romans 14:14-16
The responsibility for restraint is on the stronger one who indulges, not on the weaker one who does not indulge. Paul says we are to bear with and accept the one who is weak in conscience and does not indulge (vs. 1).
Paul does in fact tell us to not let what we consider to be good (foods, wine, days of the week, etc.) to be spoken of as evil by those who don't consider them good:
"to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. 16Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; "-Romans 14:14-16
The responsibility for restraint is on the stronger one who indulges, not on the weaker one who does not indulge. Paul says we are to bear with and accept the one who is weak in conscience and does not indulge (vs. 1).
R
You keep confusing keeping the law to be justified with keeping the law as the expected and obligatory outcome of saving faith.
Paul is addressing the latter in Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8. The obediences that we think must accompany salvation are what he is talking about.
He's not talking about not being a stumbling block to someone who says you have to keep the law to earn salvation. Obviously, if he was saying that in Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8 he would be the biggest of hypocrites violating his own counsel in those chapters by railing against the churches who were turning back to the law for justification.
Paul is addressing the latter in Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8. The obediences that we think must accompany salvation are what he is talking about.
He's not talking about not being a stumbling block to someone who says you have to keep the law to earn salvation. Obviously, if he was saying that in Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8 he would be the biggest of hypocrites violating his own counsel in those chapters by railing against the churches who were turning back to the law for justification.
No, you're reading it completely wrong. It is the strong brother's job to look out for his weaker brother by not doing things that would cause him to stumble like taking an alcoholic brother to a bar, or taking a vegetarian brother to a hog roast, or to try to persuade a sabbatarian brother to go on a Saturday fishing trip. It's all about respect. It has nothing to do with teaching a weaker brother about matters of the faith.