Not By Works

[iamsoandso]

Concerning Baptize meaning immersion and how the word was used in classical GREEK before it was ever tied to Christian Baptism.....

Truth Magazine Online What Does it mean to Baptize....<---google this as it shows how the Greek word Baptize was employed and used BEFORE it is tied to Christian Immersion which gives weight to the word meaning immersion and how it was used to indicate being UNDER the water....an example is found below...

What Does it Mean to “Baptize”?

By Tom Hamilton

When we want to know what a certain word means, we have to look at how the word itself is used by the people that speak the language in question. Of course, we could look in a dictionary or lexicon, but these reference works themselves are merely cataloged listings of how the word has actually been used.
Therefore, in regard to a theological word like baptizo — “baptize”, we could look in the standard Greek lexicons, which affirm the word means to “dip, plunge, immerse,” but we should also double-check for ourselves by looking at the actual usage of this word in existing Greek literature. This is especially important for theological terms, because there is always the temptation to bend the meaning of a word to support our own peculiar interpretation or theology.
The truth is to be found in how the word was used itself, whether in classical Greek, the Greek of the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Hebrew OT), the Greek literature contemporary with the NT, or the Greek NT itself.
Classical Greek
The literal meaning of baptizo is evident from its common usage in classical Greek, long before there was any biblical connection to the word. The word is used, for example of ships sinking: “Attalus observed one of his own pentere (a type of ship) which had been rammed by an enemy ship and was sinking (lit. ‘was being baptized’) . . .” (Polybius, Histories 16.6.2; see also 1.51.6). In an ancient medical text, one patient’s labored breathing is described in this way: “. . . she breathed like a diver (lit. ‘one who has been baptized’) who has surfaced” (Hippocrates, Epidemics 5.63).
This image of burial, especially in water, came to have figurative uses as well. It is often used to describe the greatest degree of drunkenness, the idea being that one is immersed in wine. For example, in an appeal for more moderate drinking as opposed to the previous day’s excesses, one speaker identifies himself as “one of those who was soaked (lit. ‘baptized’) yesterday” (Plato, Symposium 176b). Similarly, Plato also uses the term to describe a youth being overwhelmed in a philosophical argument, “I, knowing the young man to be going under (lit. ‘being baptized’) and wanting to give him some breathing-space . . .” (Plato, Euthydemus 277d). We read that the rulers of Egypt enjoyed a sufficient income such that “they do not bury (lit. ‘baptize’) the people with property taxes” (Diodorus Siculus, 1.73). Likewise, Plutarch comments that the Roman emperor Galba was hesitant to declare Otho his successor, because he knew him to be “unrestrained and extravagant and buried (lit. ‘baptized’) under a debt of five million (sesterces)” (Plutarch, Galba 21)

That is I think very important to look at the proper way that certain words are used by the ones using them during the time-frame they were used in. Another example is "mark" as we interpret it but in extra biblical writings from the same time-frame it was used as a synonym of money,lol,,or we use a synonym form . Not to distract though it I agree is very important to look very close at words and access what they used it as by in it's common meaning in their time-frame.

 

[Endoscopy]

Did Jesus go into the river Jordan to be sprinkled by John? No, he was fully immersed. That is the model.

Are you saying that John didn't have a vessel to pour water over the person? You are allowing your paradigm of baptism to cloud your thinking. Point out the verse that states immersion. That is the problem. No verse describes how it was done.

 

[TruthTalk]

Sorry, to tell people "he has revealed himself as a fool", is the same thing as calling him a fool. Just a little bit different wording, but the same meaning. Tell me you don't think he is a fool?

If you are trying to discredit my character you will not be successful, but go a head an try if it makes you happy. Also I am done having a one way conversation with you, thank you and God bless!

 

[dcontroversal]

I made my point in post #59166.

Many profess to be christians, but this title means nothing. Unless one is born again he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. The professing christians are mentioned in Matthew... we're told on judgment day that they will hear those sad words "I never knew you" because they were never His. They never had faith in the finished work of Jesus to save them... instead they tried to add to His work, evident when they say "did we not...." (they point to their works).

Catholicism teaches a different gospel, and those who attend are sadly kept in bondage to that system, because they trust the authority and teachings of that church, which goes against the scriptures. Most (if not all) catholics don't ever read the bible, they just nod and agree with anything the priest says, because they go by sight.... to them he looks holy and they don't believe he could be wrong. But as Paul says, don't trust appearances, but rather what does the person preach. If it's any other gospel, then let them be accursed.

As I said in my other post, there are plenty of testimonies of ex catholics, ex mormons, etc, who got saved and then left those religions, because they couldn't continue in a system that teaches a different gospel. I read the testimony of one ex priest who was convicted after reading Hebrews 10, which spoke to him personally.... the priests offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sin, but that Jesus offered ONE sacrifice for sins forever, and by that one offering has perfected FOREVER those who are being sanctified. He struggled to forgive himself for giving out that eucharist, and he also left that church.

My family grew up as catholics and I went to a convent school when I was little. I've also been to catholic services to take notes on their teachings, which filled pages that do not line up with the scriptures. I once spoke with a priest who rejected the gospel and called it "baloney".

As for Constantine... yes he did lift the ban on christianity, but he was pagan and held onto those pagan beliefs, so the church he promoted ended up being a mix of christianity and paganism. I believe this was to keep control of the people, enticing them to christianity, while allowing them to hold onto their paganism, so a merging of the two. So the paganism was "christianized". Just two examples... the worship of the woman aka "queen of Heaven"/Isis just got renamed Mary. The Romans also believed in many Gods, like a God of peace, a God of strength, etc. Interesting is this was introduced in the catholic church as Patron saints, each of them would assist you for different needs, so prayers to saint x for healing, or to saint y for help finding a job, etc.

The point I was making is that the catholic church is a manmade religion with a person at the forefront of it. No idea who the first bishop of that church was, but Constantine was very instrumental in how it began with it's mix of christianity and paganism.

Maybe Dcon can help with church history, since he studied it in seminary.

The above is true......and I agree...one thing I will add is the truth that many of these so called "Christian" religions we have today in some form or fashion can be tied back to the Roman Catholic Church with a little twist here or there....the obvious exceptions are those false religions which have their own origin in a false teacher such as Mormonism, Jehovah Witness etc......

 

[dcontroversal]

Are you saying that John didn't have a vessel to pour water over the person? You are allowing your paradigm of baptism to cloud your thinking. Point out the verse that states immersion. That is the problem. No verse describes how it was done.

Sure they do.....the way the word was used BEFORE it was tied to Christianity, the pictures of immersion seen in the O.T. at the RED SEA and JORDAN, the fact that JESUS came up OUT of the water, the fact he was SEALED in a tomb, the fact that it represents DEATH, BURIAL and Resurrection from the dead "we do not put someone on the ground and sprinkle them with dirt...we put them UNDER the ground and COVER THEM WITH DIRT".........and the fact you wish to argue this fundamental truth with the above argument speaks volumes to your motive and or stance man........serious!

 

[Gabriel2020]

BAPTISM with water is the shadow of the real baptism which is the Holy Ghost. Here is what Jesus had to say about it to his disciples after they had been baptized by water some time back. MATTHEW;20; 22-23; But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask, Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with.? They say unto him,We are able................................Remember, Jesus had already been baptized by water also by John, before he began to preach. 23; And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup,and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with.,...................... The baptism he was baptized with was the Holy Ghost,and no one else had it just yet. That is the true baptism he was talking about. He never mentioned water ever again after he was baptized by John.

 

[Endoscopy]

Sure they do.....the way the word was used BEFORE it was tied to Christianity, the pictures of immersion seen in the O.T. at the RED SEA and JORDAN, the fact that JESUS came up OUT of the water, the fact he was SEALED in a tomb, the fact that it represents DEATH, BURIAL and Resurrection from the dead "we do not put someone on the ground and sprinkle them with dirt...we put them UNDER the ground and COVER THEM WITH DIRT".........and the fact you wish to argue this fundamental truth with the above argument speaks volumes to your motive and or stance man........serious!

In point of fact I am Reformed (Calvinist) in my beliefs. Thus I accept alternate forms of baptism. I grew up in a Baptist church and went to a reformed Baptist church. I married my wife and we started attending a Reformed church. A new minister came in and was very liberal. So we went to a Presbyterian PCA church. Too many denominations have secular ministers. Presbyterian USA was taken over by secular ministers in 1932 as documented by Gary North in Crossed Fingers. All of the 7 sisters have been taken over. Sub denominations of each have real ministers. Lutheran Missouri Synod for example is still preaching the gospel.

 

[dcontroversal]

In point of fact I am Reformed (Calvinist) in my beliefs. Thus I accept alternate forms of baptism. I grew up in a Baptist church and went to a reformed Baptist church. I married my wife and we started attending a Reformed church. A new minister came in and was very liberal. So we went to a Presbyterian PCA church. Too many denominations have secular ministers. Presbyterian USA was taken over by secular ministers in 1932 as documented by Gary North in Crossed Fingers. Lutheran Missouri Synod for example is still preaching the gospel. All of the 7 sisters have been taken over. Sub denominations of each have real ministers.

So what....accepting alternate forms of baptism does not make them correct....as a matter of fact there is only one correct way, and to practice or accept other forms is to go outside the landmark boundaries set by the word of GOD.....the same reason there are 57+ flavors of salvation being spewed in pulpits of every flavor of so called Christianity today....the bible has drawn a line in the sand....all who push that line beyond what is prescribed in the bible are in error....and contrary to God...end of story!

 

[FlSnookman7]

The can of worms is the disagreement over the method. Also denominations not accepting baptism by other churches. Explain to me why I had to be baptized by immersion in three different churches. I lived the can of worms around it. There are churches that don't accept baptism from other churches. Why??? I was thrilled in my first baptism but my second and third baptisms were not a beautiful ceremony.

You seem unable to understand this issue.

I often misunderstand issues, especially here. I was thinking more along the lines of those in attendance. What if, at your 3rd baptism, someone came to support you but they were not saved? Maybe God is allowing you to be His tool, so to speak, to help bring another to Him?

I do not always reflect Jesus love nor do I always defeat my flesh. I mess up each day. As far as my salvation is concerned, no big deal BUT what about those unsaved people watching me?
On the other hand, even though I might not "feel" like attending a baptism, speaking at a meeting, praying with a stranger etc, if I do so with a feeling of gratitude and humbleness those same unsaved people are watching then as well. What a great opportunity for me to get out of my flesh and be about my Father's business.

We can not stop disagreements, we can not always reflect God's love like we should but when those situations arise I believe I need to take full advantage. Just my two cents worth.

 

[VCO]

Ah, baptism. There is a can of worms. There are three modes (or methods) of water baptism used in Christian churches today: immersion (in which the person is completely submerged), affusion (that is, pouring), and aspersion (sprinkling). Different denominations accept only some types. Baptists usually only accept immersion. Absolutely no verses in the Bible define how it is to be done. The argument goes to the root word in Koine Greek. First which word and then it's definition. Round and round the argument goes with no resolution in sight.

YOU MISSED ONE:


1 Corinthians 12:12-14 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For as the body is one and has many parts, and all the parts of that body, though many, are one body—so also is Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] So the body is not one part but many.


The Holy Spirit IMMERSES US INTO THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF JESUS CHRIST.

That is the ONLY Baptism that ALL TRUE Believers have participated in, INCLUDING THE THIEF ON THE CROSS.

 

[Katy-follower]

The above is true......and I agree...one thing I will add is the truth that many of these so called "Christian" religions we have today in some form or fashion can be tied back to the Roman Catholic Church with a little twist here or there....the obvious exceptions are those false religions which have their own origin in a false teacher such as Mormonism, Jehovah Witness etc......

As I understand it... from pagan Babylon to Rome, and then infiltration into protestant churches, known as daughters of Rome, according to the scriptures. I see it as Rome's attempt to destroy the protestant world from the inside, by bringing in catholic doctrines, and then the goal being to unite them with Rome in the future.

One example... the prosperity gospel seems just like the old catholic doctrine of indulgences (with that lemon twist as you say ).... because when you think about it, the priests used to promise blessings/favors/getting a loved one out of "purgatory" if you gave them money. And today in the protestant world you have the same idea, the promising of blessings for money. So it does seem to me like this is also a catholic doctrine that's crept its way in under a different name.

 

[dcontroversal]

Again wondering how many works have the workers for done today that helps Jesus keep them saved....answer....NONE!

We are KEPT by the power of GOD, SAVED eternally by faith, justified eternally by the imputed righteousness of Christ, Sanctified eternally in Christ, held by HIS hand, the Father's HAND, SEALED with the Spirit of Promise and JESUS will finish and COMPLETE the good work of FAITH he has begun in ALL who have believed. HE promises to NEVER leave us or forsake US....

In the grace we are, having been saved OUT OF FAITH and that NOT of ourselves, it is the GIFT of GOD and NOT of works lest any man should BOAST!

Trust JESUS by faith...he saves eternally and NO WORKS required to gain or keep salvation!

P.S. watch the workers for embellish or change what I just said.....

 

[7777pinacled]

Your words are eloquent, but sometimes they overshoots the mark and we do not understand.

Just tell us straight, how did decon curse Jesus? Does it have something to do with his children?

there is nothing more to say.
to witness someone come into a Christian board and call Yeshua Cursed is unforgivable.


I suggest for the well being of your relationship with our Lord and Savior. That you walk away from this thread and never associate with the spirit that teaches children to call Yeshua Cursed.

Blessed is the Lord who is and was and is to come the All Mighty

 

[BillG]

there is nothing more to say.
to witness someone come into a Christian board and call Yeshua Cursed is unforgivable.


I suggest for the well being of your relationship with our Lord and Savior. That you walk away from this thread and never associate with the spirit that teaches children to call Yeshua Cursed.

Blessed is the Lord who is and was and is to come the All Mighty

I'm struggling to get your point.
It is a grave accusation you are making.

How has DC called Jesus cursed, if indeed he has?

 

[tourist]

I'm struggling to get your point.
It is a grave accusation you are making.

How has DC called Jesus cursed, if indeed he has?

I'm sure that DC did no such thing.

 

[BillG]

I'm sure that DC did no such thing.

Same here.

DC is not everyone's cup of tea, as I am not as well.

One thing for sure though is that we are both passionate to see people released in Jesus to walk with him as he wants to walk with us.

Another thing for sure in any battle I find myself in I would want him by my side.
And any battle he is in I would be by his side should he wish.

 

[tourist]

Same here.

DC is not everyone's cup of tea, as I am not as well.

One thing for sure though is that we are both passionate to see people released in Jesus to walk with him as he wants to walk with us.

Another thing for sure in any battle I find myself in I would want him by my side.
And any battle he is in I would be by his side should he wish.

I would go to battle with either of you.

 

[dcontroversal]

I'm sure that DC did no such thing.

AMEN.....he is just bearing false witness....below is the post which he accuses me of calling Jesus cursed....and I also quoted Galatians which states that Jesus was born of a woman, under the law.....he then changed the verbiage to say that he was born of a woman under the law.....false as...Note the following truth...I said nothing false nor did I call JESUS cursed...

But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

why is it hard for you to understand what I have said.....Jesus was under the law, what he said had to be applicable to that time frame...HIS death RATIFIED a NEW COVENANT of GRACE, the CONDEMNATION of the LAW is no longer LEVELED at those who believe. And the words he speaks in MATTHEW MUST be vied in light of this truth. THOSE in CHRIST are NOT condemned by the LAW, but rather dealt with as CHILDREN and chastised...they are NOT cast away LOST, but whipped as a child to yield the peaceable fruits of righteousness.....again...the words have nothing to do with losing salvation.....salvation CANNOT be lost......rewards, honor and possible positions in the Kingdom as a ruler can be, but our standing as a child by BIRTH is eternally secure in Christ, as is our position!

 

[mailmandan]

Revealation 14

12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.


Works are very much important to God, not for his sake, but for ours, Does God not want the best for us? Does he want us to be happy? Everything he wrote down in His law, is perfect according to David.

Psalm 19


7The law of the LORD is perfect,converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.


Psalm 119

14I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.
15I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.
16I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.


Jesus kept the law, and we claim to want to be just like him yet we don't do the works that he did.At no point did Jesus ever break the Ten Commandments, and at no point has he told us to do it either, He only told us to Love him, and if we do, keep his commandments, is that so hard?

If we do it in love, is it really bondage to us? to do as God says because we love him?

John 14

21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him

SDA propaganda. We need to interpret the meaning of John's writings by comparing them with the other writings of John. The Greek word for "commandments" in Revelation 14:12 is {entole} which means "an order, command, charge, precept, injunction." The same word is used repeatedly in the writings of John to refer to the instructions of Christ. John uses an entirely different Greek word in his writings when he refers to the Ten Commandments: nomas. Example below:

Did not Moses give you the law {nomos}, and [yet] none of you keepeth the law {nomos}? Why go ye about to kill me? (John 7:19; Jesus is referring to the 6th commandment "Thou shalt not kill"--Ex. 20:13) According to John, the number one commandment {entolae} of Jesus to the Apostles was not Sabbath-worship, but for them to love one another:

A new commandment {entolae} I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (John 13:34) This is my commandment {entolae}, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. (John 15:12)

*Notice how John refers to the "commandments" of God in his letter:

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments {entolas}. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments {entolas}; and His commandments {entolae} are not burdensome. (1 John 5:2-3) Earlier in the same letter John tells us exactly what the "commandments" of God are:

Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, [then] have we confidence toward God. And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His [God's] commandments {entolas} and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. This is His [God's] commandment {entolae}, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He [God] commanded {entolaen} us. The one who keeps His [God's] commandments {entolas} abides in Him,... (1 John 3:21-24)

*From this we can see that in John's writings the "commandments" of God are:

To believe in Jesus Christ
To love one another

 

[dcontroversal]

Same here.

DC is not everyone's cup of tea, as I am not as well.

One thing for sure though is that we are both passionate to see people released in Jesus to walk with him as he wants to walk with us.

Another thing for sure in any battle I find myself in I would want him by my side.
And any battle he is in I would be by his side should he wish.

Thanks bro...I know I am rough and not very tactful at times, but to say I called Jesus cursed is a flat lie.....and the sentiment is the same....no problem standing next to you anywhere or anytime...same with TOURIST as well........