Women should not be allowed to preach in church

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Silverwings

Senior Member
Jul 27, 2016
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I have a woman pastor who has faithfully led the church for 48 years now, and her husband built the church for her, but has since passed on. She is spoken well of in the community, and everyone has a good word for her. 48 years ago, there were not many , if any women preaching, especially in the small town in which we live, that is right in the middle of the Bible Belt, and full of churches, all led by men. In my way of thinking, it took the power of the Holy Ghost for her to be able to stand in the pulpit and proclaim the Word of the Lord.

In her 1889 book Woman in the Pulpit, Frances Willard, the head of the Woman’s Christian Temperance Union, counted some 500 female evangelist preachers as well as 350 Quaker women ministers.

In protestant theology women were not forbidden to be heard according to the universal ministry doctrine “all of us are priests, provided we are Christians “Luther said in 1520. His claim also meant that priesthood was not sacred, “priesthood being just a ministry” (meaning service)

On 23 March 1930 for the first time a woman was ordained. Her name was Berthe Bertsch and it occurred within the Alsace and Lorraine Reformed Church. Why there ?
Because during WWI women had to work to replace men, in factories as well as in post-offices. There were known cases of pastors’ wives who replaced their drafted or departed husbands, but still fulfilled their duties towards the children, the sick, and even presided over funeral and baptism services.

Women were needed to make up for the lack of men due to the war. “Order, good behaviour, honour, require that women should stop talking when a man speaks ; but when no man speaks, women should preach” Luther wrote in 1521, which sums up the way churches considered women during the first half of the 20th century. Women were definitely needed but were kept to their traditional activities, such as catechism, deaconry, and preaching only if need be.

But women were obstinate. They were qualified, proved their abilities in parishes, where the Church appointed them. They worked.

in the second Great awakening more than one hundred women crisscrossed the country as itinerant preachers, holding meetings in barns, schools, or outside in fields. they were the first group of women to speak publicly in america.

Some argued that she was “bold and shameless,” a disgrace to her family and to the evangelical movement. Others insisted that she was the “instrument of God,” a humble woman who had given up everything for Christ.

Few women in early nineteenth-century America provoked more admiration, criticism, and controversy than Harriet Livermore. She was the daughter of a congressman and the grand-daughter of a senator, but after an emotional conversion experience, she renounced her privileged life in order to become a female preacher.

Reputed to be a gifted evangelist who was also a beautiful singer, she became so popular that she was allowed to preach in front of Congress four times between 1827 and 1844, each time to huge crowds. According to a Washington newspaper, more than a thousand people assembled in the Hall of Representatives to hear her preach in 1827, and hundreds more gathered outside to catch a glimpse of her.

President John Quincy Adams had to sit on the steps leading up to her feet because he could not find a free chair. Harriet Livermore was the best-known female preacher of her day, but she was part of a larger community of evangelical women, both white and African-American, who claimed to have been divinely inspired to preach.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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No. The role of the woman is to be the help meet for husband.
I humbly suggest you look up the Hebrew word behind "help meet" and see how else it is used in Scripture. I suspect you will be surprised.
 
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Pontiac

Guest
You really need to give this a rest, slick. You have missed the whole point of my "rebuke". It wasn't because he mistakenly (admittedly) criticized Angela. As un-called for as that was, he did sort of admit he was wrong (did NOT apologize), so I have no heartburn over that.

It's his constant belligerent responses to nearly everyone involved in this thread that finally frosted me. It's not a one time thing. If you would take the time to go back and read all of his responses, I think you would see the same attitude. Maybe not, though, since you are already invested in defending him.

I almost never respond to a one-time snippy or snide response, because we are all capable of doing that. When a poster persists in being a jerk, then I will sometimes reply in kind. Not in a sense of a pi**ing contest, but in a sense of "come on, straighten up and play nice".

If that offends your sensibilities, so be it. I'm sorry your feelings are hurt, but I don't regret calling him out for his behavior.
Alright hornetguy, I obliged your request and went back and read the entire thread including all of Icetech's posts ... I am extremely glad that you ask me to do that because it has revealed some very interesting truths ...

1) First of all, your claims that Icetech was constantly belligerent throughout this thread is a complete and total fallacy ... That is not what took place at all ... In fact, quite to the contrary, he was very respectful and extremely accurate with the truth of the Bible throughout the entire thread ... Accurately quoting scripture over and over again, while never calling anyone any names or issuing any insults ... I challenge everyone that sees this thread to go back just as I have done and read this thread from page 13 on ... That is when Icetech entered the conversation ... Anyone taking the time to do this will easily see that your claims of him being "belligerent" in his behavior is beyond any doubt a false claim ...

2) Not only did you and Angela call this man that was truthfully quoting the Bible names and insult him but by making this totally false claim against him that he was somehow "belligerent" you have now also bore false witness against him ...

3) Truth is being revealed ... Icetech was pointing out several facts regarding Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden ... Facts which several were attempting to deny ... However, he easily refuted all of those attempts by using the Bibles exact words ... Then the discussion turned to discussing women not being allowed to be preachers ... Again it was attempted by several to argue this fact of the Bible, given by Paul ... And again, by using scripture Icetech proved those attempts to be wrong and Paul's words to be the authority and correct ...

4) At that point Icetech made a mistake of judgment and thought Angela copied and pasted something when actually she had written it herself ... Icetech quickly apologized for that mistake by admitting it was his mistake ... Then what followed is very troubling ... Angela proceeded to call Icetech a "schmuck" and hornetguy proceeded to call Icetech an "arrogant little twit" ... Not because Icetech had been belligerent in any way but because he had proven to know more about the Bible than they did ... They became angry and attacked him essentially because he had told the truth ...

5) It is now very evident that there is at least one close knit group on this site that will attack anyone who proves them wrong ... Instead of admitting they are wrong, they will insult the truth teller ... In all honesty, that is a sorry situation folks and it has been revealed beyond any doubt ... All one has to do is to go back to page 13 and read forward to page 39 to see proof of this ... Hornetguy is wrong when he says Icetech was a jerk ... Another false claim and insult he has issued ... Angela and Depleted were also in on this tag team of insults ... I really do welcome everyone to go back and examine what took place here ... I truly believe most will be amazed ...

And just in case anyone is wondering, I have never spoken to Icetech before and do not know who he is ... I would stand up the same for any one of you if you were unjustly being called names by another ... It just is not right to happen, especially on a Christian website when a young man is telling the truth ...
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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Let me know how successful you are at painless childbirth.

There are just some curses don't end until this creation ends. And the line of authority is one of them.

For example, man is immediately under Christ in the order of authority, but in the age to come he will co-reign with Christ.

Maleness and femaleness will exist until the end of the age. So until then, you go into that bathroom, and I'll go into the other one. No faith in Christ is going to dissolve that difference between the sexes in this age. Only the return of Christ will end it completely.
Let me know how successful you are at painless childbirth.

Anesthesiology in modern medicine has made this an option; but many women still choose natural childbirth and refuse the anesthetic.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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Angela, I think I asked you this before but don't remember your answer. I now have a little bit of spare money to buy another translation, so I'll ask again. What translations (in modern day English) do you think are best as far as including the newest scholarship?
Please excuse my answering what is not addressed to me; but I suspect Angela will agree with me.

The English Standard Version (ESV), and the New English Translation (NET).

Also The Amplified and the Complete Jewish Bible are very accurate comparatively speaking.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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I just realized something that may have a beating on this discussion.

The word ἐκκλησία churches really means assemblies. It was common practice, in the first century, for believers to attend synagogue on the Sabbath and a Christian fellowship on the first day of the week. A synagogue with a large representation of believers might well be thought of as an assembly. For a woman to speak out in a first century synagogue would have been perceived as totally unruly and not tolerated. I can't say that this is the intent; but I see it as a possibility.
If it were the intent it would change many people's perspective.
I see it from a little different perspective, because of the changes that were being made. The time of reformation had come.

Because the new order came into effect at the time of reformation. A new government was installed using other new ceremonial laws ,as that which governs ceremonies. The previous time period that was used as a parable for the time then present , woman were separate from men (court of woman)

Much sexual immorality broke out when ome women started to add their own glory with gold and pearls to their representative glory their hair . Making it hard for the poor to focus on the breaking of bread a ceremonial law.

It had become like a meat market men and woman trying to sell their wares ..... increasing the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh .

The commandment is for woman not to console with men in a assembly formation and men vice versa are not console with woman unless they are authorirized as elders. The husbands of one wife and not wife of one husband.

Woman is saved from not conseling men. at home in chidbirth .There she has the awesome responsbilty to teach men how to hear woman. Knowing if they do not learn how to listen to their mothers they will get a extention of their mom when they get married .The same with girls learning how to listen to men, through their fathers. A life time work

Men should ask their wives at home giving honor to the marriage and vice versa.
 
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Pontiac

Guest
I'm simply responding to your silliness, and, frankly, your self-righteous attitude. But since one of us will have to stop, let me be the first.

You press on with it if you wish.
Gladly ... By calling Icetech a jerk and a little twit you bore false witness against him as he was not any jerk at all ... You are the one that issued the name calling and was belligerent, it was not he and the proof is on the pages ... I welcome everyone to read pages 14 through 36 of this post if they want to know the truth ... They will see that Icetech was very well versed, and eventually was attacked by some senior members here ... Not very Christian like at all to do that and continue calling the person names ... But that is exactly what took place ...
 
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AuntieAnt

Guest
Alright hornetguy, I obliged your request and went back and read the entire thread including all of Icetech's posts ... I am extremely glad that you ask me to do that because it has revealed some very interesting truths ...

1) First of all, your claims that Icetech was constantly belligerent throughout this thread is a complete and total fallacy ... That is not what took place at all ... In fact, quite to the contrary, he was very respectful and extremely accurate with the truth of the Bible throughout the entire thread ... Accurately quoting scripture over and over again, while never calling anyone any names or issuing any insults ... I challenge everyone that sees this thread to go back just as I have done and read this thread from page 13 on ... That is when Icetech entered the conversation ... Anyone taking the time to do this will easily see that your claims of him being "belligerent" in his behavior is beyond any doubt a false claim ...

2) Not only did you and Angela call this man that was truthfully quoting the Bible names and insult him but by making this totally false claim against him that he was somehow "belligerent" you have now also bore false witness against him ...

3) Truth is being revealed ... Icetech was pointing out several facts regarding Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden ... Facts which several were attempting to deny ... However, he easily refuted all of those attempts by using the Bibles exact words ... Then the discussion turned to discussing women not being allowed to be preachers ... Again it was attempted by several to argue this fact of the Bible, given by Paul ... And again, by using scripture Icetech proved those attempts to be wrong and Paul's words to be the authority and correct ...

4) At that point Icetech made a mistake of judgment and thought Angela copied and pasted something when actually she had written it herself ... Icetech quickly apologized for that mistake by admitting it was his mistake ... Then what followed is very troubling ... Angela proceeded to call Icetech a "schmuck" and hornetguy proceeded to call Icetech an "arrogant little twit" ... Not because Icetech had been belligerent in any way but because he had proven to know more about the Bible than they did ... They became angry and attacked him essentially because he had told the truth ...

5) It is now very evident that there is at least one close knit group on this site that will attack anyone who proves them wrong ... Instead of admitting they are wrong, they will insult the truth teller ... In all honesty, that is a sorry situation folks and it has been revealed beyond any doubt ... All one has to do is to go back to page 13 and read forward to page 39 to see proof of this ... Hornetguy is wrong when he says Icetech was a jerk ... Another false claim and insult he has issued ... Angela and Depleted were also in on this tag team of insults ... I really do welcome everyone to go back and examine what took place here ... I truly believe most will be amazed ...

And just in case anyone is wondering, I have never spoken to Icetech before and do not know who he is ... I would stand up the same for any one of you if you were unjustly being called names by another ... It just is not right to happen, especially on a Christian website when a young man is telling the truth ...
Gladly ... By calling Icetech a jerk and a little twit you bore false witness against him as he was not any jerk at all ... You are the one that issued the name calling and was belligerent, it was not he and the proof is on the pages ... I welcome everyone to read pages 14 through 36 of this post if they want to know the truth ... They will see that Icetech was very well versed, and eventually was attacked by some senior members here ... Not very Christian like at all to do that and continue calling the person names ... But that is exactly what took place ...
I'm impressed. I would have thrown in the towel and moved on by now. But you followed through. I actually did see the unjust posts against Icetech (and also the ones against you), but unfortunately it’s par for the course in the Bible Discussion Forum.

I have been guilty of sarcasm and mean-spirited comments myself (mostly in the past) and am learning to take criticism from members and grow up spiritually. It’s difficult at first, but it gets easier the more you humble yourself and face up to it. We all should be able to do that, ya know?

Anyhow, I think it’s awesome that someone stepped up and pressed on to set the record straight. That’s admirable. People hate correction, it goes against the flesh. But we must do that as the spiritual body of Christ, to grow more and more in His image. If we can’t as a body of believers accept correction from each other and learn to grow, we have no credibility at all. We are just noisy clanging brass.

I wouldn’t listen to a word somebody said if they aren’t able to humble themselves under the hand of God and admit error. That’s just foolishness.
 
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AuntieAnt

Guest
And as a side note, there should be no ganging-up tag teams against brothers and sisters. Or exalting one person's reputation over another. God said that we don't have the ability to judge a person's heart. So stop it.

We're to lift each other up and encourage one another.
 

Didymous

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2018
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I think it's clear that the main voices on this thread will never agree, and that's o. k.,. What isn't clear is why anyone would believe that angry word disparaging either men or women is edifying in any way to anyone. For those of you older than am I, I respectfully entreat you to show some real love for one another, by agreeing to disagree; for those younger than am I, I advise you to do the same. The more vocal among you make a strong case for neither men, nor women preaching by the example you set.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
I think it's clear that the main voices on this thread will never agree, and that's o. k.,. What isn't clear is why anyone would believe that angry word disparaging either men or women is edifying in any way to anyone. For those of you older than am I, I respectfully entreat you to show some real love for one another, by agreeing to disagree; for those younger than am I, I advise you to do the same. The more vocal among you make a strong case for neither men, nor women preaching by the example you set.
well said sir
 

Didymous

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2018
5,047
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I am no one, or nothing on and of myself, but we are all beloved children of our perfect Father. I wrote this with years flowing from my eyes, for I believe each of you is my brother or sister, and as such are so much more excellent than what appears on this post.
 
Mar 19, 2018
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When someone says I should have posted a link to where I copied and pasted it from on the internet, after all the hours I have spent working on that material, after all I have said about posting links to things people copy and paste, and the implication that as a woman I wouldn’t know that kind of stuff, to say nothing of the fact that individual was obviously clueless about the exegesis, that word popped ito my head.
Have you accused someone of copying and pasting from the internet lately and did you call this person a liar. If yes did you provide evidence for your claim?
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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I wrote this earlier and deleted it, but now I'm gonna say it cuz it needs to be said. Alot of the people on this thread, and on the site in general, are acting NOTHING like Christians are supposed to act. Were y'all raised by donkeys in a barn? Don't you know what manners are? Don't you know how to be polite and speak without calling people names such as twit, idiot, moron, dumba** and other such names? You should be ashamed of yourselves. You should be appalled at how you're treating other people on here. You guys are a classic example of how NOT to act Christ-like. GROW UP. I've never seen worse behavior on here, than has been shown in the last few days.. SMH

I agree with AuntieAnt. STOP IT.. Start acting like Christians, if indeed you truly ARE one.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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That is not any flag of England with my avatar ... It is the flag of The Templar Knights ... If you are going to criticize someone for something you should first have your facts in order ...
First, She was being playful.

Second, It looks like the crusader flag of Richard III. The Templar Knights may have adopted it from his.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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The jury seems to be in on this. I officially apologize for using the word "twit". Arrogant still fits, in my opinion. "twit" was uncalled for.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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I believe you meant to write, "bearing" but it's funny as it is! ;)
I did indeed. I'm aging, my fingers are unusually wide and 'r' and 't' are close together.
 
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AuntieAnt

Guest
The jury seems to be in on this. I officially apologize for using the word "twit". Arrogant still fits, in my opinion. "twit" was uncalled for.
As a sister in Christ, I am sooo grateful for big brothers I can look up to. Thanks for being a Christ-like example to us, Hornetguy. You strengthen us as a family. :) Praise God!!
 
Mar 19, 2018
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I must have missed this.
If I could find your post, I would report it.

You have no right to say I copied and pasted it, except from myself. It is quite easy to put parts of what I wrote into a google search, to see if I stole it elsewhere. Of course, I did not! Ok, sometimes I copy and paste and put my own material back. Like in this example below!

So, I did a google search of this paragraph in this thread:

Schmuck!
This occurred 2 weeks ago on a thread about numbers in the King James Bible. Angela starts out by spamming a thread by posting this 6 times in a row.
Gee, I hope I am not spamming this thread! I know James37 doesn't read most of the posts, and he really needs some help with this random coincidence thing, so I am hoping that if I repost my post 7 or 37 or 46 times, maybe he will read it and wake up and get help! Nah! That is magical hoping on my part!
Here comes her accusation.
Seriously, you are a just another spewer of pamphlets. You copy and paste from some website, where the people are as afraid and invested in magical thinking as you are.

I think I said this long ago. If you looked up, in your Bible all these random chance things, at least I would respect the you for that, if not the faulty scholarship.

Instead, you are the spammer, with your copy and pastes. I sure wish they would make it illegal. I write pretty much all my own posts, well, except the definition above. Whereas you, are just a parrot, copying and pasting garbage that is random chance and coincidence!

Got it?
The accused responds
You are a false accuser. Produce your evidence for this claim! I copy and paste things I typed up from my hand written notes.
This guy really took this accusation serious!
“For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.” (Luke 6:44)

“fruit” 184 (46 x 4) verses of the Bible
“fruits” 27 (this number is connected with seed and the NT and I have yet to discuss it but it is patterned in the Bible as well) in 23 chapters
“fruit” 141 (47 x 3) times in 126 (7 x 9 x 2) verses
“fruit” 37 chapters of the NT
“fruits” 42 (7 x 6) times in the Bible.
“the fruit” 90 verses in 73 chapters and 28 (7 x 4) books
“the fruit” 14 (7 x 2) times in the NT
“the fruits” 7 times in the NT
“the fruits” 14 (7 x 2) chapters of the Bible
“the fruit*” 111 (37 x 3) verses in 35 (7 x 5) chapters in the Bible.
“the fruit*” 91 (7 x 13) verses in 70 chapters of the PT
“the fruit*” 21 (7 x 3) times in the NT
“fruitful” 35 (7 x 5) times in 27 chapters in the Bible.
“good fruit” 7 times in the Bible
“his fruit” 7 times in the OT


I put this one together just for you Angela because your false accusations are corrupt and made with zero evidence!

GOT IT!!!!!
Ok now let’s see the evidence that Angela provides.
“Word of God” appears 37 times in the NIV! Wow! You better start reading NIV, it even matches your screen name!
Actually she just ignores accused and carries on.
By the way, getting back to you doing copy and pastes, you said you typed them from your hand written copy. I'm calling you on that! You posted those all back to back on page 6. You may have copied this nonsense from where you stored it, but there is no way you typed out perfectly all those posts in a row, with all those numbers and nonsense, from a "hand written" copy.

I do question your integrity now. Before, I just saw the mental illness. Now I see the lies, too! Kind of like an addict. Do anything you can to get your "number" fix. Sad!
She finally responds by assuming he is typing up his notes and pasting them the same day or hour when in fact if you follow the thread (and his other threads) he as compiled this information previously and posts them whenever he deems appropriate.
She fails to provide evidence for her accusation. This is her next post the same thread.
Wow! I think I’m catching onto James37’s methodology. Pick a number, any number. Then fit it into anything you want.

But do I have the energy to actual count the “number” of times things may or may not occur in the Bible. I glaube, das ich meine DeutschPrüfung beenden muss! Und es is nicht nummer siebenunddreißig!
The accused quickly responds.
Angela53510..the source of false accusations. Did you bring evidence to prove what you said about me earlier today?
He then proceeds to post quite a bit of information to seemingly to prove a point. And Angela responds not having the sense to understand that this guy had already typed up and saved this stuff on his computer previously.
More of the same. As of 8:04 pm PST this is what I found.

37 minutes ago - post #322
36 minutes ago - post #323
33 minutes ago - post #325
32 minutes ago - post #326
31 minutes ago - post #327
29 minutes ago - post #329

Even an executive secretary, typing 100 wpm couldn’t equal what you did! Copy and paste, absolutely! First from some questionable website, and then from your Word processor.

Seriously, you really are a liar! I type fast, and I could never have typed, without error, the bolded, commented etc, in those times. In fact, I think I might report you, and put this lying thread out of its misery.

And yes, I was talking about times, but gracenpeace has a good point. Not once have you proved a single assertion with the actual Bible. Just copy and pastes from someone with the same OCD as you have!
Makes the accusation again but this time calls him a liar!
Do you honestly think we are that stupid? I wish I had seen this pattern to your posts, and realized how much you spam with copy and pastes. Which is bad enough! But then to turn around and lie about it?? Do you ever even read your KJV? OH sorry, I forgot about that addiction to numbers that mean nothing. Lying is a big sign of an addict.
At this point some of her friends enter the picture and are collectively going to do something about this copying and pasting from an uncited source. The accused responds.
I posted information that I had already compiled to make a point. Who did I copy and paste from? We live in the modern age of the internet so google it!
And responds again.
What uncited source? These are counts done personally by me. I plan on doing the same thing for John 1:1.
And again
I copied and pasted them right off of the hard drive of my computer. You on the other hand spammed this thread!
He laughs at their evidence and presents a challenge.
LOL, now show what I have copied and pasted!!!!!
By this time the whole effort loses steam due to lack of evidence. This guy posted quite a bit of information and the accusers did NOT POST ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE OF ANYTHING THIS GUY HAD STOLEN FROM ANOTHER WEBSITE. Google all you want you will not find the stuff this guy was posting anywhere. A link was posted as evidence by someone other than Angela but you will not find one thing copied and pasted from that site.
 
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