Women should not be allowed to preach in church

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Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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Yes, and God has also said: from now on the children will not be held responsible for the sins of the parent.
This has nothing to do with the subject under discussion. But the impact of Adam and Eve on the human race certainly does.
So you are using pauls words and making law with them to
yoke free men, and discarding the word of God for traditions.
I just told you they were God's words, not Paul's words. God used Paul to write SCRIPTURE, and Peter called all of Paul's epistles Scripture. So you must now tell us plainly if you REJECT this passage as the Word of God:

1 TIMOTHY 2

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In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

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But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

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Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

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But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

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For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

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And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

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Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

And I'm not blaming Paul. I'm blaming unstable men for twisting Pauls words.
Not only are you blaming God, but you are making A FALSE ACCUSATION against Christian men who uphold the truth. So where does that leave you and your "Spirit-filled" stance?

This passage is so plain that no one can twist it except rebellious women.
 
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Angela53510

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Well for example 2. Tim 2, 8-14 and 1. Cor. 14,33-35. The text is clear. If you say now it is not clear you must put your ore otherone thoughts in it for to explain that it is not meant woman should not teach and have authority over man. An unmarried woman in those days lived in her fathers household and so long she was not married he was her authority. It was seemly out of question that an unmarried woman would got the opportunity to preach in a church in those days.
Nothing but a bunch of nonsense!! This is a perfect example of why women should not teach in the context of 2 Timothy 2.
Now these are both perfectly good examples of why men should not be allowed to teach!

They can’t even get the book right that we are discussing about why women should or should not teach.

That would be 1 Timothy NOT 2 Timothy! Some men can be so inexact and sloppy with quoting the Bible, it’s probably best for them to either stay in the garage, fixing their cars and lawn mowers, or on the couch watching some kind of seasonal sport.

Nothing says “clueless” more clearly than calling something “nonsense” instead of replying with your own exegesis of the passage. But then some men are so rigid and inflexible in their thinking, another reason why men should not preach or teach.

Just funning with you! Of course, there are many brilliant, flexible thinking men in this forum, and outside of it. Just not these 2 posts that couldn’t even get the book right we were discussing!
 
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Pontiac

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A brilliant man is not described in the Bible as being a flexible man ... He is a man described as one who follows the exact laws of God ... The Bible clearly states women are NOT to preach in church ... In fact, the Bible clearly states women are to be silent in church and to never exercise ANY authority over a man ... God has set man to be the ruler ... There are beautiful and Godly women and then there are the feminists that pretend to be Godly ... In the United States there are many more of the latter as opposed to the former ... Now Angela, you are free to jump all over these truths just as you have attacked many other truths ... I doubt you can resist ...
 

wolfwint

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Feb 15, 2014
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Now these are both perfectly good examples of why men should not be allowed to teach!

They can’t even get the book right that we are discussing about why women should or should not teach.

That would be 1 Timothy NOT 2 Timothy! Some men can be so inexact and sloppy with quoting the Bible, it’s probably best for them to either stay in the garage, fixing their cars and lawn mowers, or on the couch watching some kind of seasonal sport.

Nothing says “clueless” more clearly than calling something “nonsense” instead of replying with your own exegesis of the passage. But then some men are so rigid and inflexible in their thinking, another reason why men should not preach or teach.

Just funning with you! Of course, there are many brilliant, flexible thinking men in this forum, and outside of it. Just not these 2 posts that couldn’t even get the book right we were discussing!
Yes , i was very tired. Of course i mean 1. Tim 2. :) i know that the most will not agree with my writing. In Germany they would stone me for that. How i can say that woman should not preach?
But for this is was bible says. So go ahead and stone me!
 

Didymous

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Feb 22, 2018
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Proverbs35, no verse tell us to do that. The book of Acts has Peter saying that David prophesied of Judas in Psalm 69:25 and Psalm 109:8. The second one tells us that another will take his office. This happened right before they chose Matthias by lot and numbered him with the eleven. The term 'eleven' is mentioned six times: Matthew 28:16; Mark 16:14; Luke 24:9 & 33; Acts 1:26, ans Acts 2:14. So, in a sense, these six verses subtracted Judas, for 12 became 11.
 

Angela53510

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Jan 24, 2011
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Yes , i was very tired. Of course i mean 1. Tim 2. :) i know that the most will not agree with my writing. In Germany they would stone me for that. How i can say that woman should not preach?
But for this is was bible says. So go ahead and stone me!
Did you even read my post explaining the English? I’ve never read that verse in German, I’m just slowly reading Johannes.

Ich habe diesen Jahr Deutsch in der Uni gelernt!

Now you never need to feel bad about your English, after reading my German! By the way, German is based on Greek, incredible similarities in the grammar, although not the words as much. You might really enjoy learning Biblical Greek. Ich lese die Neue Martin Luther Bibel. It is so similar to the grammatical structure of the Greek NT.
 
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Pontiac

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So, I am copying and pasting something I wrote here, sometime in the past. I hope all those people with their bad Bible translation will read it and pay attention! Oh, this might have been a copy and paste of a copy and paste. It seems I was pretty upset when I wrote it.


I have said this so many times I am getting tired of it. People take an English translation and read into the text what is NOT there in the original language. They forget the context and rip verses out of their setting and who the book was written to!

Paul wrote the epistles to the various churches he founded and had pastored. In Corinthians, example, he writes to the church in Corinth. He addresses addresses various issues, including the sins of certain men.

"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife." 1 Cor. 5:1.

In 1 Timothy he also addresses specific sins to two men.

"Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme." 1 Tim. 1:20

"Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done." 1 Tim. 4:14


In fact, I have heard it said that there was a woman in Ephesus who was causing great harm in the church, but Paul did not name her, because he hoped to have her restored to the fellowship. What is extremely important about this verse, is that it does not apply to ALL women!! It is about A woman who is causing problems in the church.

"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet." 1Tim 2:11-12

It does not say SOME women or ALL women, but is addressed to A (singular) woman who was causing problems, probably a former priestess of Artemis. The pronoun SHE in the latter part of the verse is also singular because that is the tense of the verb. If Paul was wanting to address all women, for all time, he would have used the plural from of the verb and made it a continuing tense.

The first verb in Greek which then applies to following verses in this passage is LEARN. This is μανθανέτω, or manthaneto*. Because the third person pronoun is contained within the verb in Greek, I will examine this verb and the parsing is as follows:

PRESENT - That means it has to happen, NOW, - not the future or the past
IMPERATIVE - a woman is commanded to do this
ACTIVE - Means that the person must do it- it is not done to her
3 PERSON - he, she, it (in the singular) they (plural)
SINGULAR - ONE person only!!

Therefore the GREEK is very clear in saying that it is something that this woman is commanded to do NOW!! It is not forever, it is not continuing (Imperfect), it is not past or future. We do not have this verb tense in English, and properly it should be translated "LET HER".

ONE WOMAN, ONE PERSON - time is right now - in Ephesus in the 1st century AD.

I do hope some of you will take the time to read this. As I have said in so many places - (and NOT just about women), without a knowledge of Greek and Hebrew, you are depending on the personal bias of the translator. Although in this case, it is a pretty good translation. Single, present, and oh yes. Paul is personally commanding it to this woman, which also means it is a personal command, addressed to a single person, in a specific church -Ephesus! When we read the personal letters of Paul, which 1 & 2 Timothy both are, the hermeneutics is that he is talking directly to Timothy, the young pastor, about how to deal with specific situations - men who are bad and a woman who needs to be corrected!

As far as the word "authority" which has been a constant debate in this forum, and used by men to suppress women, mock them and put them down, we need to look in depth at the word!

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12 ESV

"διδάσκειν δὲ γυναικὶ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω, οὐδὲ αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός, ἀλλ’ εἶναι ἐν ἡσυχίᾳ." 1 Tim. 2:12 Greek

The word AUTHORITY here is a hapax legomena. That means it appears only ONCE in the whole Bible. It is not the usual word in the New Testament for authority, which is exousia.

Instead, we have a word which cannot be translated in terms of the way it is in other Bible verses, but translators have to turn to other contemporaneous sources to find out what the word means.

The word is authentein, (αύθεντείν) in Greek. According to Rogers Jr and Rogers III, it means anything from "to act on one's own authority, to exercise authority, to murder, to domineer, to be an autocrat."* So ALL of these terms suggest that a woman is not to be without God's authority, nor dominate or be an autocrat over a man.

Contextually, this is very important, because Timothy was the pastor in Ephesus, which was the home of the goddess Artemis or Diana. The temple of Artemis was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, and Paul had already had run-ins with their silversmiths, who resented that Paul was pulling people away from worship of Artemis and not needing their idols. (See Acts 19)

Now the big thing about these worshipers of Artemis, was that the temple was run by wild priestesses. They wore their hair long and unruly and they did some nasty things to men in the name of their idol.

So imagine if some of them get saved, or pretend to be saved, and came into a church, and start domineering and doing all kinds of cultic things. Well, I agree these women should not be in control. They should not be exercising authority over anyone. They need to unlearn a LOT of things!

So Paul was right to tell Timothy in a private letter, to kindly keep these women under control in Ephesus. Does this one verse apply to ALL women for ALL time? Well, I think it is best that neither men nor women dominate. So in that sense, it is universal. But because Paul picked this word - the ONLY time he used it in all his letters, he was not talking about any kind of authority given by God. That would be exousia ἐξουσία.

"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt 28:18 ESV

"καὶ προσελθὼν ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἐλάλησεν αὐτοῖς λέγων· Ἐδόθη μοι πᾶσα ἐξουσία ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐπὶ [a]τῆς γῆς·" Matt. 28:18 Greek

As far as the word translated "silent" in the KJV and other versions, ESV has it right, according to Danker **, the word ἡσυχίᾳ, should be translated as "quiet, well-ordered." That does not mean being absolutely silent. It means speaking at the right time.

Finally, it should be remembered that in that culture, women were not educated, and were little more than slaves or property. When they became Christians, they became equal with men (Gal 3:28) and they were joint heirs with Christ. BUT, they were not educated, and learning was essential. Most of the women could not read or write, and thus it was important for them to be instructed by men who were educated. Thank God, we are now educated, and we are able to understand, study and read the Bible for ourselves.

So, yes, you can teach. Now the men may not listen, because they do not understand the context or the Greek. They may threaten us, call us names, but God will deal with them in his time, for their discouragement and for trying to hold back the calling of God.

*The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament, Cleon Rogers Jr, and Cleon Rogers III, Zondervan Publishing House, 1998.

**A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature: Frederick William Danker based on Walter Dauer's German version. The University of Chicago Press, 2000.
Wrong Angela ... When Paul wrote "a woman" it is clear that he meant "all women" ... If he was only speaking about one woman then he would have named her or said "this woman" or "that woman" ... Also, later scripture states that a woman is to have NO authority over a man ... It is extremely clear that these references were to "all women" as no single woman was ever named in these verses ... Now you can twist the verses any which way you like to satisfy your own desire, but it is very clear the verses are referring to "all women" ... Yes, even the feminists are included ... I know that is very hard for you to accept, but it is the truth ... You wanted people to take the time to read your post, so I read it ... And it is nonsense ... You know exactly what God has said, you just don't wish to go by it ...
 

Didymous

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Feb 22, 2018
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So what's the solution then-burn all Bibles, and require Christians to learn Hebrew and Koine Greek? Maybe that's what God's wanted all along.
 
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Angela, I think I asked you this before but don't remember your answer. I now have a little bit of spare money to buy another translation, so I'll ask again. What translations (in modern day English) do you think are best as far as including the newest scholarship?
 

Lewiz

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Mar 11, 2018
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I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. ESV

But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. NASB

I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[SUP][a][/SUP] she must be quiet. NIV

I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to be silent. HCSB

I permit no woman[SUP][a][/SUP] to teach or to have authority over a man;[SUP][b][/SUP] she is to keep silent. NRSV

The list goes on and on…

So you are right and all of these translations are wrong?
Actually, yes she is.
No person has the right to assume authority over anyone. God's people are servants, not bosses.
 
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Now these are both perfectly good examples of why men should not be allowed to teach!
They can’t even get the book right that we are discussing about why women should or should not teach.
Did you not call Luke the 3rd book of the Bible in another thread? Yeah you did so don't try to make a big deal out of an honest mistake.
 

tourist

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Nothing but a bunch of nonsense!! This is a perfect example of why women should not teach in the context of 2 Timothy 2.
Paul says that he doesn't permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man but he doesn't say that God doesn't permit. It is obvious that Paul is offering his own spiritual perception and what he offered must be taken as his own personal opinion. That does not mean that what he says should not be considered, only that what he says is not necessarily spiritually conclusive and therefore binding by God.

1 Timothy 2:12
And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
 
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Actually, yes she is.
No person has the right to assume authority over anyone. God's people are servants, not bosses.
What Bible have you been reading?

For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

Luke 7:8

For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

1 Timothy 2:2

People can have positions of authority (even women over men with the exception of 1 Timothy 2) and it is a biblical.
 
Mar 19, 2018
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Paul says that he doesn't permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man but he doesn't say that God doesn't permit. It is obvious that Paul is offering his own spiritual perception and what he offered must be taken as his own personal opinion. That does not mean that what he says should not be considered, only that what he says is not necessarily spiritually conclusive and therefore binding by God.

1 Timothy 2:12
And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
Paul was given an "office" by Jesus Christ himself thus he has authority when it comes to doctrine of the church.

[FONT=&quot]For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I [/FONT]magnify mine office:
Romans 11:13
 
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At risk of being accused of "eisegesis" I suppose that means you didn't understand a word of it?
I don't have to. A quick check in a concordance proves that "teach" and "authority" are acceptable translations of 1 Timothy 2:12. I do not care what Angela53510 copies and pastes off of the internet. None of that has any "authority" over what the Bible says but it is the Bible that has all of the "authority." Who is Angela that I should listen to her?

[FONT=&quot]διδασκω[/FONT] didasko {did-as'-ko} a prolonged (causative) form of a primary verb dao (to learn); TDNT - 2:135,161; v AV - teach 93, taught + 2258 4; 97 1) to teach 1a) to hold discourse with others in order to instruct them, deliver didactic discourses 1b) to be a teacher 1c) to discharge the office of a teacher, conduct one's self as a teacher 2) to teach one 2a) to impart instruction 2b) instill doctrine into one 2c) the thing taught or enjoined 2d) to explain or expound a thing 2f) to teach one something


[FONT=&quot]αυθεντεω[/FONT] authenteo {ow-then-teh'-o} from a compound of 846 and an obsolete hentes (a worker);; v AV - usurp authority over 1; 1 1) one who with his own hands kills another or himself 2) one who acts on his own authority, autocratic 3) an absolute master 4) to govern, exercise dominion over one

Stongs


 

Lewiz

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2018
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What Bible have you been reading?

For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

Luke 7:8

For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

1 Timothy 2:2

People can have positions of authority (even women over men with the exception of 1 Timothy 2) and it is a biblical.
Why can't a man discern between worldly government and the church?
Luke is speaking of the Roman centurion, & doesn't speak to doctrine of the church at all.
1Tim is speaking about submitting to the law of the land.
Matt 20
25But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them.26It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,[SUP]c[/SUP]27and whoever would be first among you must be your slave,[SUP]d[/SUP]28even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Mark 10
42And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them.43But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,[SUP]d[/SUP]44and whoever would be first among you must be slave[SUP]e[/SUP] of all.45For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

It is man who has filled the church with authority & positions of power for his or their denomination's benefit.
In the beginning of the church it was not so.
Man is guilty of usurping authority which didn't belong to him.
Man has done this, creating authority at the local, state, national, & international levels where there should never be such.
Man created these levels, & gave power & authority, as well as useless salaries to those who don't have a clue what's going on in the local church.

Vanity of vanities!

These arguments about women's ministry are due to men parroting their denomination's wishes.

The harder man tries, the more he makes the Word of God of none effect with his traditions!

Instead of proudly standing for your traditions of men, you'd be better off on your knees before the Lord!

Is it no wonder the church is sliding towards the Tribulation?
 
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I don't have to. A quick check in a concordance proves that "teach" and "authority" are acceptable translations of 1 Timothy 2:12. I do not care what Angela53510 copies and pastes off of the internet. None of that has any "authority" over what the Bible says but it is the Bible that has all of the "authority." Who is Angela that I should listen to her?

διδασκω didasko {did-as'-ko} a prolonged (causative) form of a primary verb dao (to learn); TDNT - 2:135,161; v AV - teach 93, taught + 2258 4; 97 1) to teach 1a) to hold discourse with others in order to instruct them, deliver didactic discourses 1b) to be a teacher 1c) to discharge the office of a teacher, conduct one's self as a teacher 2) to teach one 2a) to impart instruction 2b) instill doctrine into one 2c) the thing taught or enjoined 2d) to explain or expound a thing 2f) to teach one something


αυθεντεω authenteo {ow-then-teh'-o} from a compound of 846 and an obsolete hentes (a worker);; v AV - usurp authority over 1; 1 1) one who with his own hands kills another or himself 2) one who acts on his own authority, autocratic 3) an absolute master 4) to govern, exercise dominion over one

Stongs


Angela is no one that you should listen to her. None of us listen to Angela. We listen to the Spirit, who tells us to listen to her. This does not mean Angela is perfect in knowledge. It means we respectfully listen to and consider what she has to say.
 
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Now these are both perfectly good examples of why men should not be allowed to teach!

They can’t even get the book right that we are discussing about why women should or should not teach.

That would be 1 Timothy NOT 2 Timothy! Some men can be so inexact and sloppy with quoting the Bible, it’s probably best for them to either stay in the garage, fixing their cars and lawn mowers, or on the couch watching some kind of seasonal sport.
Really?

Jesus also ascended in the 3rd book in the Bible. Did you forget that?
The 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] book of the Bible is Levitcus, did you forget that!

Whereas, Pi, is actually, to the 10 decimal point: 3.1459026538
l
Pi is actually 3.141..... and not 3.145.......

These are recent posts by Angela so I probably could compile a massive list of mistakes since she is approaching 10000 posts. The point is people make simple honest mistakes so it is very disingenuous of her to use as a tool to attack ones competency.
 
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blue_ladybug

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Feb 21, 2014
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First you say, none of you listen to Angela. Then you contradict and say you DO listen to her because the HS tells you to. Don't include ME in the bunch of you who don't listen to her. I may not read every one of her posts, or always agree with everything she says, but I DO listen to her when she speaks. :)

Angela is no one that you should listen to her. None of us listen to Angela. We listen to the Spirit, who tells us to listen to her. This does not mean Angela is perfect in knowledge. It means we respectfully listen to and consider what she has to say.
 

tourist

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Mar 13, 2014
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Paul was given an "office" by Jesus Christ himself thus he has authority when it comes to doctrine of the church.

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Romans 11:13
I agree that Paul has authority or otherwise his writing would not be part of scripture. Still, he did say that 'he' does not permit women to preach or have positions of authority, it does not say that God does not permit. The key word is 'he'. All words in the bible are there for a reason. Paul was stating his positon based on his own spiritual perspective which may, or may not be binding. In his writings there are other such examples as well.
 
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