Not By Works

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BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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If it's not faith, it's Fake.
If it's not relationship, it's religion. (Not my quote)

Everything we do should be motivated by our faith in God.
As a result of who he is and what he has done done for us through Jesus.
It's about relationship with the Father in Heaven.

We relate to a person and not to a set of rules and rituals.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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james in no way is saying

"until you have works you are not saved"

or "once you are made new and kept by the power of God you can lose salvation"


you have got to be kidding me....


also those He NEVER knew

were NEVER saved

geeez man

i have yet to see an ounce of sound teaching from you

just the same twisting of the gospel

and rejection of Gods grace

over and over
James is saying unless your faith is accompanied by works, you are proving that your faith is dead or you never had an authentic faith. Isn't that the truth?

If a person says they have faith, would you not expect accompanying works out of love for the Lord?

If a person says they have faith, and you do not see an accompanying of works, then you know they did not have authentic faith or their faith is dead. Is this not true?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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what part of Gods people DO OBEY him do you not comprehend?

What part of he who sins has never seen God or Known him do you not understand

What part of those born of God can not live in sin do you not comprehend?

is it that hard?
If a person says I have faith in Jesus and confesses Jesus his savior, but does not obey his words, then we know they either did not have an authentic faith in the beginning or their authentic faith is dead. Is this not true?

If this scripture said: And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that believed on him, you would rush with glee to provide another scriptural support for your belief system. This one just happens to support my belief system.

But I am sure the way it is written supports your belief too. A person who says they have faith in Jesus will obey his words. Am I right? Yes I am right. So OSAS is only true if you have faith and obey, not if you only say I have faith.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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If it's not faith, it's Fake.
If it's not relationship, it's religion. (Not my quote)

Everything we do should be motivated by our faith in God.
As a result of who he is and what he has done done for us through Jesus.
It's about relationship with the Father in Heaven.

We relate to a person and not to a set of rules and rituals.
We relate to a person and not to a set of man made rules and rituals.

But if those rules and rituals are laid down by Jesus or his Father, then we need to pay attention to those rules and rituals. Right?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,022
4,441
113
We relate to a person and not to a set of man made rules and rituals.

But if those rules and rituals are laid down by Jesus or his Father, then we need to pay attention to those rules and rituals. Right?
For what reason?
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
James is saying unless your faith is accompanied by works, you are proving that your faith is dead or you never had an authentic faith. Isn't that the truth?
before men
yes
looking to works is the best way we can try to see someones heart
(in the context of james ... these verses are admonishing a group who show preference to rich over poor.... as explained multiple times even with an example in v 16 chap 2)

but God sees the heart
you do not


If a person says they have faith, would you not expect accompanying works out of love for the Lord?
i sure would
of course not in order for salvation

(to earn OR maintain)

because that would mean they trust in themself
and not God

(like those in matthew and romans 9 and 10)


If a person says they have faith, and you do not see an accompanying of works, then you know they did not have authentic faith or their faith is dead. Is this not true?
nope this is false

you do not see the heart
and are not the judge

i have yet to see a good work from you....


but i am not the judge either

1 Samuel 16:7
7 But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.

________


sounds to me like you believe God doesnt know His own children so they have to prove it first

also it sounds like you believe
He is willing to cast them out


this is false

and does not represent God

if its what you believe

you are in massive error
 
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BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,022
4,441
113
We relate to a person and not to a set of man made rules and rituals.

But if those rules and rituals are laid down by Jesus or his Father, then we need to pay attention to those rules and rituals. Right?
There is something I find interesting.

I have responded to quite a few of your posts that if memory serves me you have ignored and not responded.

So can I ask why you responded to my post

If it's not faith, it's Fake.
If it's not relationship, it's religion. (Not my quote)

Everything we do should be motivated by our faith in God.
As a result of who he is and what he has done done for us through Jesus.
It's about relationship with the Father in Heaven.

We relate to a person and not to a set of rules and rituals.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,022
4,441
113
Are you asking for what reason do we pay attention to the rules and rituals that God and Jesus tell us to obey? Is that your question?
Yes.

Out of love for God or to be accepted and loved by God or to give an outward appearance that we love God when we don't.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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before men
yes
looking to works is the best way we can try to see someones heart
(in the context of james ... these verses are admonishing a group who show preference to rich over poor.... as explained multiple times even with an example in v 16 chap 2)

but God sees the heart
you do not




i sure would
of course not in order for salvation

(to earn OR maintain)

because that would mean they trust in themself
and not God

(like those in matthew and romans 9 and 10)




nope this is false

you do not see the heart
and are not the judge

i have yet to see a good work from you....


but i am not the judge either

1 Samuel 16:7
7 But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.

________


sounds to me like you believe God doesnt know His own children so they have to prove it first

also it sounds like you believe
He is willing to cast them out


this is false

and does not represent God

if its what you believe

you are in massive error
So let me give you a practical example:

1) Does God say, If you believe in me, I will forgive you of all your trespasses against me, and that will give you the power to forgive all men their trespasses agains you.


OR

2) Does God say, forgive all men their trespasses against you, and then I will forgive all your trespasses against me


Now the other side of that scripture.

1) Does God say, If you believe in me, I will forgive you of your trespasses against me, but if you do not forgive all men their trespasses against you, that will be OK because I have you covered, and I will still forgive you.

OR

2) Does God say, If you do not forgive all men their trespasses against you, I will not forgive your trespasses agains me.

What is the true doctrine?
 
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Dec 12, 2013
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The always hidden agenda of workers for salvation is that they will say "see", without Grace plus Works you will lose your salvation. And they will always prop up OSAS as a starting point for their faulty gospel. If you boil the cabbage down this is what is always behind their argument, "see" you can lose your "eternal salvation", it is the same across the board.

Is the eternal security of the believer found in the Holy Bible, yes it is, is the eternal security of the believer taught from the pulpit throughout mainstream Christianity around the world, yes it is. Will the Grace plus Works people ever understand that Christian's are saved unto good works, but we are not saved by our good works; Saved unto good works, not by them.

Will worker's for, ever see the light, highly doubtful, they love boasting about how great they are. If you "take away boasting" of their works, they may actually have to fall prostrate before God and show a little humility as did Jonah. Most worker's for, just plain ol' don't believe they have value enough for God to let them into heaven, hence they must add their wonderful works to pad the entry fee. However, "Jesus paid it all, all to Him we owe", simple gospel.

"Salvation comes from the LORD." Jonah2:9
Amen bro...and they will continue to be wrong!
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,022
4,441
113
Out of love for God.
Amen.

Then everything will follow through.

It's the love that God has for us that sets us free to be the kids he has called us to be.

We do because we are loved and accepted rather than to be loved and accepted.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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You add works James2:17 plus grace, the rest of the bible. You believe in grace plus works and I'm too tired to go round and round with you. If you add works to grace you have fallen from grace but go ahead and continue on with your merit based religion.

And all I said was neglect parts of the bible, you are speaking falsely of me.
He adds water as well...nothing but another embellished false gosple!
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
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what part of Gods people DO OBEY him do you not comprehend?

What part of he who sins has never seen God or Known him do you not understand

What part of those born of God can not live in sin do you not comprehend?

is it that hard?
The following is what you ignore. Paul is talking about the law of sin that lives in him and ALL OF US.

Romans 7:7 to 13

The Law and Sin
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
I detest the 5 minute rule!! It is too short!!! I wanted to edit my post to add a longer section of scripture immediately after I posted. Due to the site issues with my Chrome browser on a Samsung tablet it takes a while to navigate back to the post after posting and going back to the mail utility. So I got back in time to edit the post but not save the changes. Why not allow the changes after opening the post to edit it?? Here is the extended scripture I wanted to expand. Even here I have to edit it to take out the extra space between the paragraphs.

Romans 7 (NIV) New International Version

Released From the Law, Bound to Christ
1 Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

The Law and Sin
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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Amen.

Then everything will follow through.

It's the love that God has for us that sets us free to be the kids he has called us to be.

We do because we are loved and accepted rather than to be loved and accepted.
OK, so we obey his words out of love for God.

So we then know without much fanfare who loves God, right?

Those who love God will obey his words. Those who do not love God or have a fake love will not obey his words. Is that the truth?
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
OK, so we obey his words out of love for God.

So we then know without much fanfare who loves God, right?

Those who love God will obey his words. Those who do not love God or have a fake love will not obey his words. Is that the truth?
Read post 58976. Especially verses 14 to 25.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
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OK, so we obey his words out of love for God.

So we then know without much fanfare who loves God, right?

Those who love God will obey his words. Those who do not love God or have a fake love will not obey his words. Is that the truth?
Hi benher, there is sometimes a third or a forth choice to express obedience to the Father

Here is my answer; God wants to have a love relationship with his children just as any Father would. And as we grow into adulthood with our Heavenly Father we will find that He gave us gifts to be used to edify the church the Body of Christ. The ways we can express our obedience to the Father must be without number, such as Jesus was obedient unto death.

Just trying to broaden the scope of your conversation with BillG, excuse me.......:)

Maturity in the "Body of Christ" Ephesians4:11-13

11) So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,
12) to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
13) until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
 
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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
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There you go again, "boasting about how great they are". Can't I disagree with your doctrine without being boastful? When was any time that you have heard me boast about how great I am because I do so many wonderful works, and you aught to follow me because I am the perfect example of what a good Christian aught to do to be saved?

Show me the post that I said these kinds of things. If you cannot find such a post, then please give me a break from your usual attack on Christians that believe like me. Thank you.

If you are saved unto good works, and you do not do those good works then you will not go into heaven. IOW no OSAS.

John 10:28 (HCSB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.