Women should not be allowed to preach in church
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If it seemed that I project blame on all the guys, it was not my intention. I view the shame as shared.. My objection is to any semblance of any valid claim to superiority, or inferiority, on either part. Exampled by the nature that is reflective of our characteristics, respectively, conspicuous and hidden, brazen and demure, I do understand why one assuming the characteristics of the other might be received with such compunction. What I do not understand is the assertion of superiority.
This failure to understand is in light of my understanding of head in terms of first (rosh) rather than rank. Granted, rank might be derived from that, indeed, part of Eve's curse is that Adam is given dominion over her. However, as God said at the beginning to them, in Genesis 1:28, "...Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it...and rule over...every living thing that moves on the earth." And surely, I may not be a man, but I am no thing.
Albeit, I do thank you, and those, whom have ruled graciously thus far unto the day our deliverance is complete.
This failure to understand is in light of my understanding of head in terms of first (rosh) rather than rank. Granted, rank might be derived from that, indeed, part of Eve's curse is that Adam is given dominion over her. However, as God said at the beginning to them, in Genesis 1:28, "...Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it...and rule over...every living thing that moves on the earth." And surely, I may not be a man, but I am no thing.
Albeit, I do thank you, and those, whom have ruled graciously thus far unto the day our deliverance is complete.
So, is this the "usurping authority" thread! What a terrible and biased translation by the KJV translating committee. And this is one reason I really don't like the KJV! Because, it says whatever King James wanted it to say, with a helping of Erasmus and the Catholic Church thrown in for good measure. Instead of the Greek. So, a copy and paste by me! In other words, I wrote it earlier, just adding it back to the discussion. Or maybe it is even in the earlier pages of this thread. I just get so sick of the nonsense about "usurping authority," I thought it was time to bring out the truth, again.
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12
The word AUTHORITY here is a hapax legomena in Greek. That means it appears only ONCE in the whole Bible. It is not the usual word in the New Testament for authority, which is exousia. (The word used in Matt 28:18)
"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt. 28:18
Notice, Jesus says the authority has been given to him, not men or women, or pastors, or priests. Jesus is the one we have to obey. It is better to obey God than man!
Instead, we have a word which cannot be translated in terms of the way it is in other Bible verses, but translators have to turn to other contemporaneous sources to find out what the word means.
The word is authentein, (αύθεμτείν) in Greek. According to every scholarly source I have read, authentein means anything from "to act on one's own authority, to exercise authority, to murder, to domineer, to be an autocrat." So ALL of these terms suggest that a woman is not to be without God's anointing, nor dominate or be an autocrat over a man.
The best translation, which takes into account the infinitive status of authentein "to domineer' as opposed to turning into a noun, and having to add an extraneous verb like "exercise," for the verse to make sense. Authentein is not a substantive, and there is no justification for adding a verb that is not even in the verse.
"I do not allow a woman to teach, or to domineer over a man, rather, she is to remain silent." 1 Tim. 2:12 (my translation!)
Further, the word "silent" or ἡσυχίᾳ in this verse, is the same word the rabbis used when teacher their students. They were not allowed to teach, and were to remain silent. In other words, Paul is following the rabbinic tradition, and saying the women are not ready to teach, and they need to stop domineering men.
Contextually, this is very important, because Timothy was the pastor in Ephesus, which was the home of the goddess Artemis or Diana. The temple of Artemis was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, and Paul had already had run-ins with their silversmiths, who resented that Paul was pulling people away from worship of Artemis and not needing their idols. (See Acts 19)
Now the big thing about these worshipers of Artemis, was that the temple was run by wild priestesses. They wore their hair long and unruly and they did some nasty things to men in the name of their idol.
So imagine if some of them get saved, or pretend to be saved, and came into a church, and start domineering and doing all kinds of cultic things. Well, I agree these women should not be in control. They should not be exercising authority over anyone. They need to unlearn a LOT of things!
So Paul was right to tell Timothy in a private letter, to kindly keep these women under control in Ephesus. Does this one verse apply to ALL women for ALL time? Well, I think it is best that neither men nor women dominate. So in that sense, it is universal.
But because Paul picked this word - the ONLY time he used it in all his letters, he was not talking about any kind of authority given by God. That would be exousia. Instead, he was giving instructions for Timothy to take these new women converts in hand, and get them to listen and learn. Maybe later, some of them could be preachers and evangelists. Prisca was certainly a teacher of the word. Why would Paul commend her, if he wanted her to be permanently silent? It makes absolutely no sense!
"Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus." Romans 16:3
Note that Prisca or Priscilla is listed first, and in 6 other passages. (Acts 18:18, 19, 26, Romans 16:3, and 1 Tim. 4:19) Aquila is only listed first once in 1 Cor. 16:19. The person that was mentioned first, in Roman and Greek tradition, is the stronger partner or the one in charge. Prisca must have been a very knowledge woman concerning the Word of God, including the New Testament and spreading the gospel.
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12
The word AUTHORITY here is a hapax legomena in Greek. That means it appears only ONCE in the whole Bible. It is not the usual word in the New Testament for authority, which is exousia. (The word used in Matt 28:18)
"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt. 28:18
Notice, Jesus says the authority has been given to him, not men or women, or pastors, or priests. Jesus is the one we have to obey. It is better to obey God than man!
Instead, we have a word which cannot be translated in terms of the way it is in other Bible verses, but translators have to turn to other contemporaneous sources to find out what the word means.
The word is authentein, (αύθεμτείν) in Greek. According to every scholarly source I have read, authentein means anything from "to act on one's own authority, to exercise authority, to murder, to domineer, to be an autocrat." So ALL of these terms suggest that a woman is not to be without God's anointing, nor dominate or be an autocrat over a man.
The best translation, which takes into account the infinitive status of authentein "to domineer' as opposed to turning into a noun, and having to add an extraneous verb like "exercise," for the verse to make sense. Authentein is not a substantive, and there is no justification for adding a verb that is not even in the verse.
"I do not allow a woman to teach, or to domineer over a man, rather, she is to remain silent." 1 Tim. 2:12 (my translation!)
Further, the word "silent" or ἡσυχίᾳ in this verse, is the same word the rabbis used when teacher their students. They were not allowed to teach, and were to remain silent. In other words, Paul is following the rabbinic tradition, and saying the women are not ready to teach, and they need to stop domineering men.
Contextually, this is very important, because Timothy was the pastor in Ephesus, which was the home of the goddess Artemis or Diana. The temple of Artemis was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, and Paul had already had run-ins with their silversmiths, who resented that Paul was pulling people away from worship of Artemis and not needing their idols. (See Acts 19)
Now the big thing about these worshipers of Artemis, was that the temple was run by wild priestesses. They wore their hair long and unruly and they did some nasty things to men in the name of their idol.
So imagine if some of them get saved, or pretend to be saved, and came into a church, and start domineering and doing all kinds of cultic things. Well, I agree these women should not be in control. They should not be exercising authority over anyone. They need to unlearn a LOT of things!
So Paul was right to tell Timothy in a private letter, to kindly keep these women under control in Ephesus. Does this one verse apply to ALL women for ALL time? Well, I think it is best that neither men nor women dominate. So in that sense, it is universal.
But because Paul picked this word - the ONLY time he used it in all his letters, he was not talking about any kind of authority given by God. That would be exousia. Instead, he was giving instructions for Timothy to take these new women converts in hand, and get them to listen and learn. Maybe later, some of them could be preachers and evangelists. Prisca was certainly a teacher of the word. Why would Paul commend her, if he wanted her to be permanently silent? It makes absolutely no sense!
"Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus." Romans 16:3
Note that Prisca or Priscilla is listed first, and in 6 other passages. (Acts 18:18, 19, 26, Romans 16:3, and 1 Tim. 4:19) Aquila is only listed first once in 1 Cor. 16:19. The person that was mentioned first, in Roman and Greek tradition, is the stronger partner or the one in charge. Prisca must have been a very knowledge woman concerning the Word of God, including the New Testament and spreading the gospel.
Another copy and paste by me, from me!
"And as far as the qualifications for deacons, the passage in 1 Tim. 3 has also been very poorly translated. For one thing, the word "autos" (αὐτὸς) which is a close to the pronoun, HE, as you can get in Greek, does NOT appear at all in verses 1-7. In addition, it talks about "deacons" in" verses like 1 Tim 3:8, 10, 12 and 13. The word in Greek is Διακόνους, or diakonous, which means servant in the plural. It is also inclusive, so it could well be talking about women and men deacons. Verse 11 is most telling. Τhe ESV translates it as thus:
"Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11 ESV
But this is in no way true to the Greek. The word used is γυναίκας, or gunaikas which in the UBS interlinear, actually has the word "deaconnesses" next to it. There is no "THEIR" in the passage in Greek. It is not in any way the "wives of the deacons" or "their wives." So it does give the qualifications for a woman - the same as a man!
The NIV comes much closer with:
"In the same way, the women(deaconesses?) are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything." 1 Tim. 3:11 NIV
As for 1 Tim. 3:2 "husband of one wife" is an admonition to the men who want to help out in ministry to NOT have more than one wife. It is simply not a prohibition that only men are allowed to be deacons.
If anyone is interested, I can parse the above verse in Greek, and explain what it means. And other verses!
As far as the office of pastor, I have yet to see anyone post a qualification for that office.
The big reference is Eph. 4:11:
"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." Eph. 4:11-13
There is no place in the entire chapter that Paul says only men can hold these positions. In fact, the Greek uses the word "Some" or τοϋς, which definitely includes both genders!! In addition, the word "pastor" does not actually appear in this verse. The word is ποιμένας or poimenas in this case. It means "shepherd."
So that is the low down. Once again, the Greek has nothing against women being pastors. The biases of translators has created this absolutely false doctrine that women cannot be preachers, leaders or in authority (exousia) in the church.
Really, what it really comes back to, is looking closely at who really has "pasa exousia" ALL AUTHORITY - and that is Christ!
"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt. 28:18
As for me, I will continue to serve God however he calls me. He has given me gifts, called me and used me in so many ways. Why would I care what bad translations, and certain men who cling to wrong translations think? I am answerable to Christ, and I pray that he will use me, an obedient servant till the day I die."
"And as far as the qualifications for deacons, the passage in 1 Tim. 3 has also been very poorly translated. For one thing, the word "autos" (αὐτὸς) which is a close to the pronoun, HE, as you can get in Greek, does NOT appear at all in verses 1-7. In addition, it talks about "deacons" in" verses like 1 Tim 3:8, 10, 12 and 13. The word in Greek is Διακόνους, or diakonous, which means servant in the plural. It is also inclusive, so it could well be talking about women and men deacons. Verse 11 is most telling. Τhe ESV translates it as thus:
"Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11 ESV
But this is in no way true to the Greek. The word used is γυναίκας, or gunaikas which in the UBS interlinear, actually has the word "deaconnesses" next to it. There is no "THEIR" in the passage in Greek. It is not in any way the "wives of the deacons" or "their wives." So it does give the qualifications for a woman - the same as a man!
The NIV comes much closer with:
"In the same way, the women(deaconesses?) are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything." 1 Tim. 3:11 NIV
As for 1 Tim. 3:2 "husband of one wife" is an admonition to the men who want to help out in ministry to NOT have more than one wife. It is simply not a prohibition that only men are allowed to be deacons.
If anyone is interested, I can parse the above verse in Greek, and explain what it means. And other verses!
As far as the office of pastor, I have yet to see anyone post a qualification for that office.
The big reference is Eph. 4:11:
"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." Eph. 4:11-13
There is no place in the entire chapter that Paul says only men can hold these positions. In fact, the Greek uses the word "Some" or τοϋς, which definitely includes both genders!! In addition, the word "pastor" does not actually appear in this verse. The word is ποιμένας or poimenas in this case. It means "shepherd."
So that is the low down. Once again, the Greek has nothing against women being pastors. The biases of translators has created this absolutely false doctrine that women cannot be preachers, leaders or in authority (exousia) in the church.
Really, what it really comes back to, is looking closely at who really has "pasa exousia" ALL AUTHORITY - and that is Christ!
"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt. 28:18
As for me, I will continue to serve God however he calls me. He has given me gifts, called me and used me in so many ways. Why would I care what bad translations, and certain men who cling to wrong translations think? I am answerable to Christ, and I pray that he will use me, an obedient servant till the day I die."
While I argue for strict interpretation of Scripture; I acknowledge that limitations on women preaching or being given authority do only occur in letters to Corinth, Ephesis, and Crete. This could indeed be a local issue since all three places had problems with cult prostitutes to various goddesses.
The court of the women was the outer forecourt of the Temples in Jerusalem into which women were permitted to enter. The time of reformation developed the head covering uncovering doctrine . The unconverted Jew today are still waiting to install the separation.
The head teaching parable applies to both as did the commandment in the garden... not to eat of the will of another as that seen..
If the man refuses to uncover his head the whole ordinance as a ceremonial law is made to no effect .Likewise if a woman as representable glory of man does not cover up her own representative glory, her hair, the whole law is made to no effect. He did not leave woman with no representative glory . She is not the one to crawl and gravel as if he she did not have a leg to stand on. It was the serpent
The only glory that should be present when men and woman gather together is the unseen veiled glory of our husband Christ. It will be unveiled when the wedding is consummated in the new heavens and incorruptible earth
That ceremonial law has been all but in a few cases made to no effect , as some pass it off as a sign of the times a fashion statement.
The woman counseling teaching with other men, or men consoling with other woman, should be done at home giving their husband the honor or giving the wife the honor. .Making it into a meat market was not the intent I believe. The new ordinance where men and woman are not separate protects against sexual immorality while it protects the unseen glory of God. .
You could say whenever a new person entered the congregation she was humbled taking away all the glory that shows she was of this world.
I think in that parable below we are given a picture of the bride of Christ, and our husband Christ.
And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;And she shall put the raiment (glory) of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. Deu 21:11
It’s not the length of hair.. man hair is usually shorter unless they take on a temporal vow of a Nazarene..which in the end does typify the bride of Christ, the whole church.
But like today the confusion that comes with the LGBT darkness where the word marriage is rendered useless.
We are given a vision of the father of lies coming in full false glory .
And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their "faces" were as the "faces" of men.And they had "hair" as the "hair" of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. Rev 9:7
Is it too late to reestablish meaning to words ?
Only if you overlook the entire history of Israel and God establishing the man as the head of the household and head of family. God made the man responsible for the teaching of His word to his family first then to his neighbors.
This order was indoctrinated into the Jewish family and Judaism.
There are always consequences when we stray off into our own thinking.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
This order was indoctrinated into the Jewish family and Judaism.
There are always consequences when we stray off into our own thinking.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Genesis 3:6
Adam was present when she ate, and according to what we are told, did nothing to stop her. Did he hear the conversation? Why would that be an issue? He knew the commandment of God, but chose instead to support Eve's decision.
Adam was present when she ate, and according to what we are told, did nothing to stop her. Did he hear the conversation? Why would that be an issue? He knew the commandment of God, but chose instead to support Eve's decision.
Women Instructed
9Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 10but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 11A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.
This is the whole section about the women.
Where's the part about ministry at?
Why does it say only woman & man?
What's V13-15 about?
There is no context about ministry anywhere. What we have here is eisegesis, that is when people inject their opinion into what is written.
It's simply not there.
This whole thing talks about a woman's personal role as an individual & a wife.
9Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 10but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 11A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.
This is the whole section about the women.
Where's the part about ministry at?
Why does it say only woman & man?
What's V13-15 about?
There is no context about ministry anywhere. What we have here is eisegesis, that is when people inject their opinion into what is written.
It's simply not there.
This whole thing talks about a woman's personal role as an individual & a wife.
Genesis 3:1-6... particularly verse 6:
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? [SUP]2 [/SUP]And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? [SUP]2 [/SUP]And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
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