Lets talk about Paul

Rainrider · Mar 21, 2018

One that included Paul also following the Torah? At lest the parts that are relevant after the death, and resurrection. Like say the vow of a Nazirite that is clearly the vow he had taken in,
Act 18:18 And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow.
When one lets the Bible explain the reason for cutting his hair, there is only one vow in the whole of the Word that calls for this.
Num. 6:5 ‘All the days of the vow of his separation no razor shall come upon his head; until the days are fulfilled for which he separated himself to the LORD, he shall be holy. Then he shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow.
If you read the full chapter you find what vow, as well as everything that goes with it.
Or do you wish to speak of a reformation that finds Paul keeping the feast?
Act 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.
Though we are not told what feast this is, we can be sure it one of the pilgrimage feast. Passover, Booths, or the day of of atonement.

Deade · Mar 21, 2018

You spoke earlier of whether Paul's epistles were God's word or Paul's. Paul let us know when the Lord wasn't directly speaking: 1 Cor. 7:12: "But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away." I think we can assume that Paul was giving us God's instructions, the rest of the time.

Rainrider · Mar 22, 2018

Deade said:

One of the things that many people over look with Paul is that at times, he seems to say first one thing then turns around and says the exact opposite. As we must keep in mind that at times like that, we must find what seems to be in opposition. Once found, we are left the task of reconciling this seeming contradiction. In doing so, we must not let our own thoughts interfere, rather look at both his actions, and what he has to say on that topic in other places.
Take what I posted above. If we say Paul teaches that we have no need of the feast, yet he himself follows them. Do we not run the risk of changing Paul's teachings to fit our own doctrine? The Bible should be the only means by which we interpret the Bible.

Rainrider · Mar 28, 2018

Colossians 3
1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

Once more we find Paul speaking of Torah, and how it should fit into the lives of all true followers. One does good to note that sacrifices are never given as a point of faith, or in anyway said to hold any hope of salvation. Yet at the same time, Paul and every writer in the NT seems to remind us of the action that are sinful, and we should keep our selves from. Paul however more than any other, also reminds of the things we should be doing.

8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth.
9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,
10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,
11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.
12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;
13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.

One of the things that is so hard for many in the world to do is to forgive. Yet even what many call the LORDS prayer, it ask that we be forgiven as we forgive others. So do we think that we will be forgiven if even if we don't forgive others?

14 But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection.
15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful.
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

It safe to say that some of us simply can't sing. At lest not in a way that we might call a joyful sound. I know if I was go out in the sand and try to sing, the coyotes will start to cry for me to stop. Yet even in all that, the song dose ring joy, and peace, at lest in my heart. Yet with that, it is not the way we or the coyotes hear it. HaShem may put on ear muffs when I sing, yet He knows that in my heart is the joy, love, and peace He has placed there that lead to that sound I make.

17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.
18 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them.
20 Children, obey your parents in all things, for this is well pleasing to the Lord.
21 Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged.
22 Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God.
23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men,
24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ.
25 But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality.

I know that at one time I was the boss a lot of people said, there was no making me happy. Needless to say the ones with that mind set didn't last long. Yet the ones that didn't care if I was happy or not, so long as they know in their heart they did the best they could, always stayed around. They never faced any form of condemnation, or rebuke. True they were told better ways to do something, or given a shorter rout. Yet in the end, both them and my-self would learn something. Just because a person is over someone, doesn't mean that person is always right. It also doesn't mean they have to run the show with an iron fist. If does mean, that you must be true to your word, and always do your best to walk in faith, obedience, and love. Things went so well for me as production foremen, that our last day of work every week seen everything done, with 1/2 a day to have a BBQ, and just enjoy talking. Ok so we did plain out the next weeks works as best we could, and if something came up up that we couldn't plain for, like a well going down, everything was planed in a way that we never failed to get it all done. One of the hands always said tat it was not us, rather HaShem working in us, that open the door to this willingness, and ability to get done what we set out to do. Even when it looked as though we had no hope of getting it done.

Rainrider · Apr 5, 2018

Colossians 4
1 Masters, give your bondservants what is just and fair, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.
2 Continue earnestly in prayer, being vigilant in it with thanksgiving;
3 meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains,
4 that I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak.
5 Walk in wisdom toward those who are outside, redeeming the time.
6 Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.

As one teacher said, "If we answer one another with words that can seen as hurtful, or degrading, we do the devils work for him." Yet when we look at one other teacher we find, "Though we intend our words for good, many times they do more harm to true words of Yeshua than good." In both we find that we must temper our words with wisdom, and kindness. though at the same time, we must also put forth the truth. This at times mandates that we say what we have to say in a pointed, and some what forceful manner. This can be done with both love, and encouragement, though it at times hard to find a balance that isn't to passive or aggressive.

7 Tychicus, a beloved brother, faithful minister, and fellow servant in the Lord, will tell you all the news about me.
8 I am sending him to you for this very purpose, that he may know your circumstances and comfort your hearts,
9 with Onesimus, a faithful and beloved brother, who is one of you. They will make known to you all things which are happening here.
10 Aristarchus my fellow prisoner greets you, with Mark the cousin of Barnabas (about whom you received instructions: if he comes to you, welcome him),
11 and Jesus who is called Justus. These are my only fellow workers for the kingdom of God who are of the circumcision; they have proved to be a comfort to me.

The name Yeshua shows up in the New testament as the name of 2 other people beside Yeshua Ha Messiah. (Though I disagree with this teaching) One is said to Y'hoshua bin-Nun. (Joshua son of Nun.) this is the one I disagree with, though they hold the same root, it is my understanding they don't hold the same meaning. Then we have this one.
As to meaning, Yeshua means HaShem is Salvation. Y'hoshua on the hand, (though it is said to be the same) mean HaShem is with us.

12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ, greets you, always laboring fervently for you in prayers, that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.
13 For I bear him witness that he has a great zeal for you, and those who are in Laodicea, and those in Hierapolis.
14 Luke the beloved physician and Demas greet you.
15 Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea, and Nymphas and the church that is in his house.
16 Now when this epistle is read among you, see that it is read also in the church of the Laodiceans, and that you likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.
17 And say to Archippus, "Take heed to the ministry which you have received in the Lord, that you may fulfill it."
18 This salutation by my own hand--Paul. Remember my chains. Grace be with you. Amen.

There is some speculation that some Messianic Jew didn't understand subscribe to Paul's understanding of Torah. There fore they tune against him. This is as noted only speculation. Yet in the word today, Paul has been used, (successfully I might add) to disprove the Bible as truth. In a discussion, with the student that used Paul in this manner, it came to light that his paper was misunderstood as being how he felt. When in fact, his paper was on target with the lecture that week. You see that lecture was on how Paul can be misused to make points that don't fit with the whole of the Bible, and how if we find any one part of the Word in contrast with any other part, it must be we that are mistaken it's meaning. Though the class was asked to write a paper on the dangers of this form of teaching, said student went a steep further. He not only showed in his paper the danger, he also showed how one can remove all truth. Yet stay inside the words, not the meaning of scripture.
My question to us all is this. Do we study the whole of the Word, and seek truth, or do we seek out only what we wish to find?

Rainrider · Apr 7, 2018

1Thessalonians 1
1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers,
3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,
4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
6 And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit,
7 so that you became examples to all in Macedonia and Achaia who believe.
8 For from you the word of the Lord has sounded forth, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place. Your faith toward God has gone out, so that we do not need to say anything.
9 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God,
10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

For an opening to a letter, this like most is self explanatory.

Lucy-Pevensie · Apr 8, 2018

Deade said:

It's very common for preachers to quote NT scripture saying "Paul says". I hear it a lot. Sometimes I wonder if there is too much of a fixation on the man, Paul. I rarely hear "Luke says", "John says" "Moses says".

"Jesus says" is used often but that's to be expected.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Apr 8, 2018

Rainrider said:

It would be best to take Paul at his word that feasts are not important and that he did all things to not offend whatever culture he was immersed. So the logical conclusion is that he kept feasts while in Jerusalem in order to be a Jew to the Jews so that he might win some to Christ.

Rainrider · Apr 8, 2018

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

I would find it hard to trust anyone that would try to change their character to fit in. That (at lest by some) is deceptive, and misleading. 3 things that I would hope we would try to place on any true follower. The idea that Paul becomes like the people he is teaching, as in 1Cor. 9:19-22, Paul isn't trying to say he changes who he is. Rather he tries to walk in their shoes, or to put it another way, he does his best to understand the culture of the people he is with.
If how ever you are right that would tell me that Paul doesn't stand fast in his teaching, and would render both his actions, and teaching suspect to say the lest.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Apr 8, 2018

Rainrider said:

I don't think it's that deep or complicated. Paul's freedom in Christ rendered things that were important to other people irrelevant to him. Going through the motions, so to speak, to avoid offending people is what wisdom teaches sometimes.

Magenta · Apr 8, 2018

Rainrider said:

Scripture tells us to behave according to those who are around us that we do not cause them to stumble. If someone likes to have a glass of wine or two with dinner but they are hosting recovering alcoholics, they would then not serve wine with dinner out of respect for their guest's sobriety. Or you are eating at a friend's house and they serve something you don't particularly care for, you eat it anyway and without complaint so as to not offend your host. Saying these sorts of things makes a person untrustworthy, deceptive, and misleading is the wrong attitude to take towards it.

Rainrider · Apr 8, 2018

Lucy-Pevensie said:

It was a wonder of mine as well. Until I sat through a class on Biblical History. There it became clear that when we read any translation of the the Word, we are reading the ideas that one doing the translation holds dear to his own heart. Even when the order of the books was changed from how it is in the Tanakh to the how they are in the western Bible, can tell us a bit about the people that placed them in that order. That however is a topic filled with pit falls.
What we should also work to do, is make sure that what we understand from say Paul fits with every word in the whole of the Bible. Any study of the Bible should be about the whole of the word, and not about a word.

Rainrider · Apr 8, 2018

Magenta said:

Amen. We can change little things at anytime, yet to try and change who we are, (as has been ascribed to Paul) would render any form of testimony null.

Rainrider · Apr 8, 2018

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Yes, so long as you don't compromise truth.
As for my last post, to you. That last line in it was a wrong assumption on my part. I am sorry. After rereading it, I found that I placed something on you that shouldn't have been.

Magenta · Apr 8, 2018

Rainrider said:

It could be said that putting on Christ is all about changing who we are.

Rainrider · Apr 9, 2018

Magenta said:

If we don't change our lives at that time, then we really didn't turn our life over to Yeshua. Though it was my understanding we were speaking of Paul after his conversion.

oldethennew · Apr 9, 2018

Paul = hero among many others for Christ!!!

Rainrider · Apr 10, 2018

1Thessalonians 2
1 For you yourselves know, brethren, that our coming to you was not in vain.
2 But even after we had suffered before and were spitefully treated at Philippi, as you know, we were bold in our God to speak to you the gospel of God in much conflict.

This conflict came not from war, rather from some that wished to stop the spread of the Good News. One teacher tells us, "We as humans are flowed in many ways. The strongest flow we hold is in our hearts. Having been told something for years, some will stop at noting to stall, stop, or discredit any thing that is not in line with what we teach, even if that teaching is no0t in line with what we do."

3 For our exhortation did not come from error or uncleanness, nor was it in deceit.
4 But as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, even so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who tests our hearts.
5 For neither at any time did we use flattering words, as you know, nor a cloak for covetousness--God is witness.
6 Nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we might have made demands as apostles of Christ.
7 But we were gentle among you, just as a nursing mother cherishes her own children.

Paul list off ten things we should be wiry of. Many times the world has, is, and will face the words of people with good intent. Though it sounds good, and seems to be in line with the Word, we can't always trust others to lead us on the right path. That is why I always ask that you study out what is placed before you.

8 So, affectionately longing for you, we were well pleased to impart to you not only the gospel of God, but also our own lives, because you had become dear to us.
9 For you remember, brethren, our labor and toil; for laboring night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, we preached to you the gospel of God.
10 You are witnesses, and God also, how devoutly and justly and blamelessly we behaved ourselves among you who believe;
11 as you know how we exhorted, and comforted, and charged every one of you, as a father does his own children,
12 that you would walk worthy of God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory.
13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.

As was noted in post#456 our lives will change when we truly turn it over to Yeshua. The Word works through the Spirit to transform us into what HaShem wills in our lives. Though a word of warning may in be order here. When one prayers that this or that change in their lives, many times this change comes from us being placed in things will only work out if we place into practice that change we pray for.

14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans,
15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men,
16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.
17 But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavored more eagerly to see your face with great desire.
18 Therefore we wanted to come to you--even I, Paul, time and again--but Satan hindered us.
19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?
20 For you are our glory and joy.

Do we not find it strange that we are asked by Paul to look at the church in Judea as a guide to our walk? There are some churches that wish only teach how HaShem has rejected His chosen people, and picked up their church as His new Spiritual Israel. Others have done all they can to remove any sing of the root from their faith. Not many still think of their faith as being Judaeo-Christain. Even less it seems understand what that means. It seems that what this world needs is a return to the faith once followed.

Rainrider · Apr 18, 2018

1Thessalonians 3
1 Therefore, when we could no longer endure it, we thought it good to be left in Athens alone,
2 and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith,
3 that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this.

Yeshua told us in Mat. 24:9 that we would be hated because of Him. In fact if one reads Mat.24:4-13, we find many things about the end times. Many of them can seen in the world today.

4 For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.
5 For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.
6 But now that Timothy has come to us from you, and brought us good news of your faith and love, and that you always have good remembrance of us, greatly desiring to see us, as we also to see you--
7 therefore, brethren, in all our affliction and distress we were comforted concerning you by your faith.
8 For now we live, if you stand fast in the Lord.
9 For what thanks can we render to God for you, for all the joy with which we rejoice for your sake before our God,
10 night and day praying exceedingly that we may see your face and perfect what is lacking in your faith?
11 Now may our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way to you.
12 And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you,
13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Paul like any true follower, prays for any that under his charge.

Rainrider · Apr 21, 2018

1Thessalonians 4
1 Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God;
2 for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;
4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.
7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.
8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.

Though Paul quotes in his own way Exe.36:27, this does point to the New covenant. Even though as one reads Eze 36:25-26 it doesn't use the phrase new covenant, the promise is the same.

9 But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another;
10 and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more;

To love one another is a teaching that can be found throughout the Word, from the Torah on. A concept so important that HaShem not only speaks of it, He showed us what it was in the sacrifice of His only Son. Yeshua lived it in many ways, and it is in account of every healing, every promise made, and His willingness to give His own life so freely.

11 that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you,
12 that you may walk properly toward those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing.
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

As these passages lead to a debate that has no true end, there is little point in entering into that. If one follows a pre., post, or mid tribe really doesn't matter. What matters is that we remain ready at all times, for the day nor the hour of His return are not know to any of us. We can discern the season if we keep a watchful eye on what is going on around us. Just don't expect me to jump up and say it will be next year.

Lets talk about Paul

Senior Member

Called of God

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member