The Rapture

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louis

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Nov 1, 2017
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Zec 5 is not in focus here in Rev 17. First century Jerusalem was the focus as I pointed out. Rev is describing Jerusalem and relating her to Babylon of the 6th century BC. What happened in Babylon? They were forced into man worship:

I recognize the woman (wickedness) in Zechariah 5 as the whore in Revelation.
The Lord describes her as set to appear in the future.
This is correlation of the Word.


Zechariah 5:7 And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah.
8 And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.
 
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Roadkill

Senior Member
Dec 19, 2017
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Wow, this idea of disembodied souls has to stop. The "resurrection" was not about a reconstitution of a body, rather it was about the ascension of the dead spirits from Hades, the spiritual realm of the dead. It was about captives being "set free." All souls located in the spiritual realm have spiritual bodies. "They are sown in corruption" means the body goes into the ground, decays and is no more. They are raised in incorruption meaning during the resurrection, they raise out of Hades in spiritual form(bodies). This is what Paul was saying in 1 Cor 15.

This from Ecc 3:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]I said in my heart, “Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals.”
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.​

Our physical bodies have the same fate as animal bodies - all return to dust - never to be seen again!! Not one earthly, physical molecule of our current body will be part of our spiritual body PERIOD.

It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.​

These are two separate bodies with absolutely no connection to each other!!

Paul is using the analogy of a seed going into the ground, decaying, disappearing but sprouting up a plant or tree. Yes, our bodies go into the ground and when the resurrection happened in 70 AD, those who died, were raised up out of Hades and set free. They already had a spiritual body because they were in the spiritual realm. A soul is invisible yet dead people were recognizable in the Parable of the Rich Man, Poor Man.

The Sadducees who didn't believe in the resurrection as they thought once you are dead, its over, no afterlife asked Jesus,
"
Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”


They weren't thinking about when a dead person is in a new body whose wife she would be. Rather, they wanted to know in the afterlife, or spiritual realm, whose wife she would be. Jesus in His response tells them that in the resurrection they "are like angels of God in heaven." Jesus goes on to say, "But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Having a spiritual body is a given. Everyone has a spiritual body when they enter the spiritual realm, just as everyone has a physical body when we are born to this physical earth (realm). Having a spiritual body isn't the point. Having a spiritual body isn't what separates us from them. Being with God is the very definition of being spiritually alive. Being absent from God is the very definition of being spiritually dead. So, in the resurrection, those spiritually alive go to be with God while those who are spiritually dead - don't. THIS, is the "restoration of all things!" This is what was lost in the Garden and restored by Christ.


God the LORD our God is fully capable of raising a body from the Grave. Old testament points to this. God is the one who created all creation simply from his will in that he spoke it into being. Surely raising a body from the grave, no matter the state of decomposition, is within his abilities. Jesus demonstrated this several times Including his own resurrection. You plainly contradict the Bible sir. Also the point of Revelation being written in 95 AD and points to a future events means it can NOT point to the past event of the 70 AD Destruction of Jerusalem.
 
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Roadkill

Senior Member
Dec 19, 2017
237
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Actually, Revelation was not written in the 90s AD, rather it was written sometime between the death of Nero in 68 and the arrival of Titus in 70 AD. The idea of a mid-90s dating for the writing of Revelation comes from one, and only one source, that being St. Irenaeus in the late 100s BC, around 170. In his work, "Against Heresies" is one phrase where Irenaeus is recounting a meeting he had with Polycarp some 35 years earlier in which it might appear that John was given the Revelation during the reign of Domitian. However, the topic was about the identity of the antichrist which John still had not revealed at that time because he was still under Roman rule. So we have a 2nd hand account being recalled 35 years later with the topic in question. All other sources cite back to this one.

The context of Revelation is pre-wrath (70 AD) destruction of Jerusalem. The temple is still standing (Ch-11). The 7 churches were active churches in Asia Minor. Today, all are gone. The image of the Beast with the 7 heads and 10 horns perfectly fits Rome. The Harlot perfectly fits Jerusalem as she was also called a harlot before going into Babylonian captivity.

The seals, trumpets and bowls are all perfectly recorded by Josephus, including the return of Christ to destroy Jerusalem.
Not True. This is well documented within the Church.
 

Roadkill

Senior Member
Dec 19, 2017
237
3
18
Wow, this idea of disembodied souls has to stop. The "resurrection" was not about a reconstitution of a body, rather it was about the ascension of the dead spirits from Hades, the spiritual realm of the dead. It was about captives being "set free." All souls located in the spiritual realm have spiritual bodies. "They are sown in corruption" means the body goes into the ground, decays and is no more. They are raised in incorruption meaning during the resurrection, they raise out of Hades in spiritual form(bodies). This is what Paul was saying in 1 Cor 15.

This from Ecc 3:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]I said in my heart, “Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals.”
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.​

Our physical bodies have the same fate as animal bodies - all return to dust - never to be seen again!! Not one earthly, physical molecule of our current body will be part of our spiritual body PERIOD.

It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.​

These are two separate bodies with absolutely no connection to each other!!

Paul is using the analogy of a seed going into the ground, decaying, disappearing but sprouting up a plant or tree. Yes, our bodies go into the ground and when the resurrection happened in 70 AD, those who died, were raised up out of Hades and set free. They already had a spiritual body because they were in the spiritual realm. A soul is invisible yet dead people were recognizable in the Parable of the Rich Man, Poor Man.

The Sadducees who didn't believe in the resurrection as they thought once you are dead, its over, no afterlife asked Jesus,
"
Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”


They weren't thinking about when a dead person is in a new body whose wife she would be. Rather, they wanted to know in the afterlife, or spiritual realm, whose wife she would be. Jesus in His response tells them that in the resurrection they "are like angels of God in heaven." Jesus goes on to say, "But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Having a spiritual body is a given. Everyone has a spiritual body when they enter the spiritual realm, just as everyone has a physical body when we are born to this physical earth (realm). Having a spiritual body isn't the point. Having a spiritual body isn't what separates us from them. Being with God is the very definition of being spiritually alive. Being absent from God is the very definition of being spiritually dead. So, in the resurrection, those spiritually alive go to be with God while those who are spiritually dead - don't. THIS, is the "restoration of all things!" This is what was lost in the Garden and restored by Christ.


Maybe to you, but those of us who have had near death experiences outside of our bodies know better.
I myself had one that led me on to dig more diligently into the Word of God and brought me much closer to him. I told my wife every thing that went on in a ER room from a perspective of being just below that ceiling when my heart was stopped and then restarted. I heard every word and saw every action in that room while observing my own body on the bed. A spiritual awakening that set me on the journey I am on to this day. Paul and John and several Prophets had the experiences too but were not near death experiences. Their experiences were while in a Spiritual Trance, they were none the less Out of Body experiences. If they had seen the things they recorded in their physical bodies the curse of sin would have killed them. There are visions and dreams of course but out of body experiences have and do happen.
 

Roadkill

Senior Member
Dec 19, 2017
237
3
18
Actually, Revelation was not written in the 90s AD, rather it was written sometime between the death of Nero in 68 and the arrival of Titus in 70 AD. The idea of a mid-90s dating for the writing of Revelation comes from one, and only one source, that being St. Irenaeus in the late 100s BC, around 170. In his work, "Against Heresies" is one phrase where Irenaeus is recounting a meeting he had with Polycarp some 35 years earlier in which it might appear that John was given the Revelation during the reign of Domitian. However, the topic was about the identity of the antichrist which John still had not revealed at that time because he was still under Roman rule. So we have a 2nd hand account being recalled 35 years later with the topic in question. All other sources cite back to this one.

The context of Revelation is pre-wrath (70 AD) destruction of Jerusalem. The temple is still standing (Ch-11). The 7 churches were active churches in Asia Minor. Today, all are gone. The image of the Beast with the 7 heads and 10 horns perfectly fits Rome. The Harlot perfectly fits Jerusalem as she was also called a harlot before going into Babylonian captivity.

The seals, trumpets and bowls are all perfectly recorded by Josephus, including the return of Christ to destroy Jerusalem.
The Roman Emperor Domitian was the one to exile John to Patmos. His reign was from 81AD to 96AD.
 

Roadkill

Senior Member
Dec 19, 2017
237
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A liar lies!! Period!!
Therefore anything you say comes from that angel I will assume to be a lie!!
I'm still waiting for a response from you. I think I'm entitled to know why you accuse me this way?
A Biblical response would be acceptable but not one of your interpretations of what it says. It must be clear cut and to the point. I don't think you took up my challenge yet and found someone who deals in demonic warfare to verify what I have relayed to you. A third party would clear this up for you. Or do you think all demonic warfare is a bunch of mumbo-jumbo?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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God the LORD our God is fully capable of raising a body from the Grave. Old testament points to this. God is the one who created all creation simply from his will in that he spoke it into being. Surely raising a body from the grave, no matter the state of decomposition, is within his abilities. Jesus demonstrated this several times Including his own resurrection. You plainly contradict the Bible sir. Also the point of Revelation being written in 95 AD and points to a future events means it can NOT point to the past event of the 70 AD Destruction of Jerusalem.
No, I do not contradict the Bible sir, I explain it. Being raised from the dead is NOT being resurrected. Lazarus was raised from the dead (after 4 days), he was not resurrected from the dead at that time. Jesus was both raised from the dead and resurrected, having gone down to Hades and returned. In both cases as in other cases where Jesus brought the dead back to life, they were not dead long and had not yet seen corruption.

Revelation was not written in 95 AD. This is a false assumption based on one ancient writing which wasn't even a direct writing from a person with no first hand knowledge. Revelation is 99% over, Jerusalem was destroyed.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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The Roman Emperor Domitian was the one to exile John to Patmos. His reign was from 81AD to 96AD.
Wrong. There is nothing that states this other than a vague fragmented writing credited to Irenaeus where what he stated was unclear. Instead, we have the
Syriac translation of the Apocalypse has this superscription: "The Revelation which was made by God to John the Evangelist in the Island of Patmos to which he was banished by Nero the Emperor." Most of the Syriac New Testament (known as the "Peshito"), i. e., all the unquestioned books, are supposed to have been translated late in the first century or very early in the second. This actual states who banished John, which Irenaeus doesn't.
[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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[h=1]Why Historians Date the Revelation to the Reign of Nero[/h]The Revelation of John
p. 23-26, Henry Cowles D.D. (1882)
The Revelation of John: With Notes, Critical, Explanatory, and Practical ... - Henry Cowles - Google Books


It remains to speak of the external evidence—that of the early Christian fathers. This is far from being uniform, clear and direct. Unfortunately the earliest fathers (Barnabas, Clement of Rome, Papias, Polycarp and Justin Martyr)—the very men whose testimony would have been most valuable—fail us altogether. They either omitted all allusion to this point as being well enough understood without their testimony, or what they wrote has perished. The earliest of the fathers whose testimony has been relied on is Ireneus, who wrote his book "Against Heresies," A. D. 175-180. His youth was spent in Asia Minor, but all his manhood and Christian work lay in Ancient Gaul [France]. From the dim light that reaches us it would seem that his statements as they were understood shaped the opinions of Eusebius and Jerome on this question, and that they naturally controlled the views of subsequent authors. Hence it becomes important to examine carefully what Ireneus said—the more so because it is at least supposable (I think even probable) that his testimony as to the date of the Apocalypse has been misunderstood.

The only passage appealed to as giving his testimony occurs in some remarks upon "the number of the beast" (Rev. 13: 18), which stand in our received text 066. The original Greek is this.

[. . .]

It may be translated thus :—

'' Therefore we do not imperil [the churches] by announcing the name of the Antichrist plainly, for if it were safe and wise at the present time to proclaim his name, it would have been done by him who saw the visions of the Apocalypse, for it is not a very long time since he was still to be seen, but almost in our own age. near the close of the reign of Domitian." ​

This passage has been generally understood to say that the vision of the Apocalypse was seen in the age of Domitian, and it seems to have been the standard authority for that opinion with the Christian authors of the third and fourth centuries and onward. His testimony turns on the single point whether in the last clause it is he (John) who was still seen among the churches in the age of Domitian, or it (the vision) which was then first seen. The logic of the passage, the course of thought, should be mainly relied on to decide this question.

I understand the logic of Ireneus thus :— Obviously it was not prudent to give Nero's name during his life. But John lived down to the time of Domitian when Nero was thirty years dead. So far forth therefore the circumstances had materially changed. Now, says Ireneus, if the necessity for divulging the real name of Nero is so great and the danger from doing it so small that we ought to have the name brought out now, then the same was true in the time of Domitian, and John would have disclosed the name himself. Ho did not do it, for though Nero was dead, yet Rome still lived, a persecuting power. The danger from Nero's personal vengeance was long since passed away, but other Neros might arise on the same Roman throne; therefore John remained silent: so let us. Hence the logic of the passage requires that the thing seen in the last clause of this passage should be John yet living in his extreme old age, and not the vision itself. The supposition that it was the vision nullifies the argument of the passage. - Or thus: The argument assumes that it would have been dangerous and therefore unwise to give Nero's name openly during his life; also, that John lived a long time after Nero's death, so that if it were proper to give Nero's name when Ireneus wrote, it was equally so in the last years of John, and he would have given the name to the churches then himself. - Origen seems to take the same view of the case, and perhaps the same view of this passage from Ireneua when he says, "The king of the Romans as tradition teaches condemned John to the Isle of Patmos for his testimony to the word of truth; and John taught many things about his testimony, yet did not say who condemned him in all that he has written in his Apocalypse."

Several fathers of the third century and the fourth speak of John's writing this book in connection with his banishment to Patmos, which they locate in Domitian's reign. Yet some of them are not explicit as between Nero and Domitian. Clement of Alexandria says John was banished by "the tyrant"—a name appropriate enough to either, yet in usage applied less to Domitian and more to Nero.

A very ancient Latin fragment [quoted in Stuart's Apocalypse, 1: 266] comes down to us, probably of the second century, saying, "Paul, following; the order of his own predecessor John, wrote in the same way to only seven churches by name." This assumes that John wrote the Apocalypse before Paul wrote the last of his seven letters to as many churches by name. The latest date of Paul's seven was about A. D. 64. He died under Nero's persecution. Eusebius [bishop of Cesarca, A. D. 314-340] in his history (book 3; chap. 18, and bk. 5: 8) speaks of John as being banished to Patmos and of seeing his visions there in the reign of Domitian, but quotes Ireneus (the very passage above cited) as his specific authority. Did he not misunderstand Ireneus? He also refers to a current tradition to the same effect, which however may have grown out of mistaking the sense of Ireneus.

Jerome [born A. D. 331; died A. D. 420] held the same opinion, apparently on the authority of Ireneus as above and of Eusebius. Victorinus of Petavio [died A. D. 303] in a Latin commentary on the Apocalypse, says that "John saw this vision while in Patmos, condemned to the mines by Domitian Caesar." Many others of a later age might be cited to the same purport, witnessing however only to a current tradition which so far as appears may have Come from the language of Ireneus, under a misunderstanding of his meaning.

On the other hand the Syriac translation of the Apocalypse has tins superscription: "The Revelation which was made by God to John the Evangelist in the Island of Patmos to which he was banished by Nero the Emperor." Most of the Syriac New Testament (known as the "Peshito"), i. e., all the unquestioned books, are supposed to have been translated late in the first century or very early in the second; but the Syriac version of the Apocalypse is not so old. Yet Ephraim the Syrian of Nisibis [died A. D. 378] wrote commentaries on nearly the whole Bible; often appeals to the Apocalypse; but wrote only in Syriac and probably was unacquainted with Greek and therefore must have had this book in the Syriac tongue. This superscription seems to testify to a current tradition in Syria at least as far back as his day, assigning the date of the book to the age of Nero.

Of later witnesses, Andreas of Cappadocia [flourished about A. D. 500], in a commentary on this book, favors the Neronian date. Arethas also, His successor [about A. D. 540], yet more decisively. He assumes the book to have been written before the destruction of Jerusalem, for he explains chapters 6 and 7 as predictions of that event.

Plainly then the traditions of the early ages and the testimony of the fathers were not all in favor of the Domitian date. Some incidental circumstances strongly favor the earlier date; e. g., tbs account given in much detail by Eusebius [Ec. His. 3: 23], who quotes Clement to the effect that John after his return from this banishment in Patmos, mounted his horse and pushed away into the fastnesses of the mountains to reach a robber chief who had apostatized from the Christian faith. But Jerome represents John in the last years of his life (i. e., at the time of Domitian's persecution) as being so weak and infirm that he was carried by other hands with difficulty to his church-meetings to say in tremulous tones: "My little children, love one another." These traditions of the aged apostle, compared with each other and with the probabilities of the case, seem to forbid us to assign the date of the Apocalypse to the reign of Domitian. The conclusion to which I am brought after much investigation is that the historic testimony for the Domitian date is largely founded on a misconception of the passage from Ireneus, and as a whole is by no means so harmonious, so ancient, and so decisive, as to overrule and set aside the strong internal evidence for the earlier date.

I am compelled to accept the age of Nero as the true date of this writing.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Maybe to you, but those of us who have had near death experiences outside of our bodies know better.
I myself had one that led me on to dig more diligently into the Word of God and brought me much closer to him. I told my wife every thing that went on in a ER room from a perspective of being just below that ceiling when my heart was stopped and then restarted. I heard every word and saw every action in that room while observing my own body on the bed. A spiritual awakening that set me on the journey I am on to this day. Paul and John and several Prophets had the experiences too but were not near death experiences. Their experiences were while in a Spiritual Trance, they were none the less Out of Body experiences. If they had seen the things they recorded in their physical bodies the curse of sin would have killed them. There are visions and dreams of course but out of body experiences have and do happen.

If you were out of your physical body and were able to see it laying there, then you had to be in your spiritual body. By your own testimony, you saw, thus you had eyes. Do disembodied souls have eyes? You simply do not understand the nature of a spirit. When you stepped (floated) out of your body you were already in your spiritual body and in the process of transitioning to the spiritual realm. When you were revived, you re-entered your physical body.

You obviously had a very unique experience. I would be interested to hear more of what you saw and felt.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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God the LORD our God is fully capable of raising a body from the Grave. Old testament points to this. God is the one who created all creation simply from his will in that he spoke it into being. Surely raising a body from the grave, no matter the state of decomposition, is within his abilities. Jesus demonstrated this several times Including his own resurrection. You plainly contradict the Bible sir. Also the point of Revelation being written in 95 AD and points to a future events means it can NOT point to the past event of the 70 AD Destruction of Jerusalem.
Not reincarnation.

Flesh and blood as rudiments of this corrupted world will have no part in the new incorruptible heavens and earth . Two different creations or Genesis' both created at the foundation when God was working out his work of faith .

Different kinds of flesh for different kind of creations We who have passed from death to eternal life are typified as a new creation we known no man ather the flesh even that of Christ's temporal flesh as the Son of man typified as sinful.The demonstration is over. Corrupted Flesh and blood could never enter the new order.

its our new born again spirit and soul, not seen, that does rise .

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.1Co 15:35

I think Job confirms we will have new flesh seeing the corrupted has been eaten by worms and also confirms the timing.. the last day .

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:Job 19:25
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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True I do not agree with DiscipleDave in many things. I.E. Reincarnation it B.S! But somethings he is on the money. Am I to contradict the Truth? I think not no matter how imperfect the vessel.

True DiscipleDave does not always agree with me. I always defer to scripture when it is plainly stated.

Where does it say in Revelations that the Anti-Christ puts his seal of approval on the Temple being Built? Doesn't does it? He make a treaty with Israel for peace but breaks this in the midst of the 7 final years of Israel as a nation.

I said that this would be started in May of 2018 but that it would take 40 years to complete due to the Extreme Prejudice of the Region, as you can well imagine, this event will cause an upheaval in the Middle East that's going to last for a long time preventing them from completing it until the appointed time. When the Last brick of the Temple Mount is laid God is going to start his stop watch on Israel's 70th week as told to Daniel.

Yes they have everything for the temple already built, we all know this. But one thing they lack. That is the Ark of the Covenant. They can not build this again. Yes, they will find it again. It is still here on earth.

Do you think the Devil wants this info out yet? No he does not. He is doing everything to confuse and hide this from mankind upto and including burying the info deep in this forum where it will be very hard for an outsider to find for himself.
Years ago I read that a select group of rabbis had found the Ark of the Covenant in a cave under the temple mount. An oil made from an extinct tree is required for the dedication of the temple. It is supposed to have been found. Another rumor is the journey the Ark took and now is resting in a location in Ethiopia guarded and behind a fence guarded by a sect. No one is allowed in. What is the truth?? The location in Ethiopia is real but what is there? No one is talking about it that has anything to do with it. Lots or rumors but no verifiable facts. Also there are negroes on the east coast of Africa that are followers of Judaism and have the Levitical markers in their DNA. There is some evidence that the Ark made it's way through that area. There is also an sacrificial alter there. Confusion reigns supreme!!
 
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Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Not reincarnation.

Flesh and blood as rudiments of this corrupted world will have no part in the new incorruptible heavens and earth . Two different creations or Genesis' both created at the foundation when God was working out his work of faith .

Different kinds of flesh for different kind of creations We who have passed from death to eternal life are typified as a new creation we known no man ather the flesh even that of Christ's temporal flesh as the Son of man typified as sinful.The demonstration is over. Corrupted Flesh and blood could never enter the new order.

its our new born again spirit and soul, not seen, that does rise .

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.1Co 15:35

I think Job confirms we will have new flesh seeing the corrupted has been eaten by worms and also confirms the timing.. the last day .

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:Job 19:25
This is an area outside of the Apostles Creed so it is open to debate and we just agree to disagree. The Creed is not open to debate. It defines who is and isn't a Christian!!!
 
Mar 28, 2016
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This is an area outside of the Apostles Creed so it is open to debate and we just agree to disagree. The Creed is not open to debate. It defines who is and isn't a Christian!!!
Hi Thanks

So then we cannot disagree with creeds . Which ones?

With all due respect I would offer..The apostles creed is a private interpretation of men .We do not seek the approval of men. Its what the Catholic use to make the word of God without effect as a way of seeking the approval of the venerable ones.(law of the fathers) I think we should be careful on how we hear the voice of God who is not a man as us. He has no form (imposible to have a form as a beginning. Its why we worship him by His faith that works in us as His unseen signature or seal of approval .

The word of God defines the us in Christ not the private interpretations of men.(creeds) In that way there must be heresies (private interpretations)among us so that we can seek after his approval.just as he lovingly commands us to.

1Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Living sacrifice defines the suffering of hell . The dead feel no pain. The dead cannot cry out in prayer and supplication and hope for something? The dead have no living hope

From the same twinkling of the eye their temporal corrupted spirit returns to the father of spirits and the continuing process of decay return the corrupted, spiritless, lifeless dust it was taken from .

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

A body of death needs an eternal spirit in order to work out something . The dead will not rise to new incorruptible spirit life .

Jam 2:26 For as the body "without" the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Our living hope comes from a imputed righteousness as it works in us to both will and do His good pleasure we will rise on the last day.All die not receiving the promise of our new incorruptible bodies of a different flesh .

Corrupted flesh and blood will not enter the new incorruptible heavens and earth.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:phi 2:12

Twice he informs us he was heard . The dead have no ears to hear what the Spirit says to the churches

Jon 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
 
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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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With all due respect I would offer..The apostles creed is a private interpretation of men.
In all fairness, the Apostles Creed is a summation of Christian doctrine which no Christian can object to (even those who do not have liturgical worship). It is NOT a private interpretation of men, as you suggest (in order to downgrade what it states). The only point which could be interpreted in different ways is "the holy Catholic Church". For genuine Christians this would be the Church, the Body of Christ. For Roman Catholics, it would be the RCC. And "hell" there means Hades.

The Apostles’ Creed
From the Book of Common Prayer, 1662

I believe in God the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth:
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, dead, and buried:
He descended into hell;
The third day he rose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost;
The holy Catholick Church;
The Communion of Saints;
The Forgiveness of sins;
The Resurrection of the body,
And the Life everlasting.
Amen.
 
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Mar 28, 2016
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In all fairness, the Apostles Creed is a summation of Christian doctrine which no Christian can object to (even those who do not have liturgical worship). It is NOT a private interpretation of men, as you suggest (in order to downgrade what it states). The only point which could be interpreted in different ways is "the holy Catholic Church". For genuine Christians this would be the Church, the Body of Christ. For Roman Catholics, it would be the RCC. And "hell" there means Hades.

The Apostles’ Creed
From the Book of Common Prayer, 1662

I believe in God the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth:
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, dead, and buried:
He descended into hell;
The third day he rose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost;
The holy Catholick Church;
The Communion of Saints;
The Forgiveness of sins;
The Resurrection of the body,
And the Life everlasting.
Amen.
Creeds as private interpretations do not define scripture.Scripture defines creeds .Its alway first things first. The word of God has no equal

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.2Pe 1:21

The Catholics love the apostles creed and raise it above that which is written. Their private interpretation as personal commentaries falsy aids to there idea of a succession of apostles. (men following men), comparing themselves to and by themselves .Not comparing themselves to the word of God as the final authority in matter of faith the unseen)

Therefore making the whole word of God without effect by their private interpretations as oral traditions of men .

You could say every man has his own creed like fingerprints .

Its what private revelations as interpretations do give a person a philosophical win win ideology .This is even if they are proven wrong the queen of heavens they call Mary will love them for opening up the air ways to give the illusion God is still adding to His word, as scripture.

Pope Urban VIII on Private Revelations/interpretations

His Holiness, Pope Urban VIII stated: "In cases which concern "private revelations, as interpretations , it is better to believe than not to believe, for, if you believe, and it is proven true, you will be happy that you have believed, because our
Holy Mother asked it. If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings as ifit had been true, "because you believed it to be true."(Pope Urban VIII, 1623-44)
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Years ago I read that a select group of rabbis had found the Ark of the Covenant in a cave under the temple mount. An oil made from an extinct tree is required for the dedication of the temple. It is supposed to have been found. Another rumor is the journey the Ark took and now is resting in a location in Ethiopia guarded and behind a fence guarded by a sect. No one is allowed in. What is the truth?? The location in Ethiopia is real but what is there? No one is talking about it that has anything to do with it. Lots or rumors but no verifiable facts. Also there are negroes on the east coast of Africa that are followers of Judaism and have the Levitical markers in their DNA. There is some evidence that the Ark made it's way through that area. There is also an sacrificial alter there. Confusion reigns supreme!!

Rev 11: [SUP]19 [/SUP]Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.


As of 70 AD, the ark of His covenant was in Heaven. God took it. He broke His covenant with apostate Israel, He ended the Law and as such, the apostate Children of Israel would no longer need, or have, His ark. Sorry, so much for your theory.

 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
Hi Thanks

So then we cannot disagree with creeds . Which ones?

With all due respect I would offer..The apostles creed is a private interpretation of men .We do not seek the approval of men. Its what the Catholic use to make the word of God without effect as a way of seeking the approval of the venerable ones.(law of the fathers) I think we should be careful on how we hear the voice of God who is not a man as us. He has no form (imposible to have a form as a beginning. Its why we worship him by His faith that works in us as His unseen signature or seal of approval .

The word of God defines the us in Christ not the private interpretations of men.(creeds) In that way there must be heresies (private interpretations)among us so that we can seek after his approval.just as he lovingly commands us to.

1Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Living sacrifice defines the suffering of hell . The dead feel no pain. The dead cannot cry out in prayer and supplication and hope for something? The dead have no living hope

From the same twinkling of the eye their temporal corrupted spirit returns to the father of spirits and the continuing process of decay return the corrupted, spiritless, lifeless dust it was taken from .

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

A body of death needs an eternal spirit in order to work out something . The dead will not rise to new incorruptible spirit life .

Jam 2:26 For as the body "without" the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Our living hope comes from a imputed righteousness as it works in us to both will and do His good pleasure we will rise on the last day.All die not receiving the promise of our new incorruptible bodies of a different flesh .

Corrupted flesh and blood will not enter the new incorruptible heavens and earth.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:phi 2:12

Twice he informs us he was heard . The dead have no ears to hear what the Spirit says to the churches

Jon 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
Read the Apostles Creed and try to find an error in it. Elders labored on it from the time of the Roman Creed to the final writing of it. You blithely ignore the purpose of it. Defining who is and isn't a Christian. It was created in response to heresies creeping into Christian circles. An example of using it today is the Mormon Church. Mormons believe Jesus was just a good man. They also have a strange view of God. 2 things the Creed has statements about.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83

Rev 11: [SUP]19 [/SUP]Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.


As of 70 AD, the ark of His covenant was in Heaven. God took it. He broke His covenant with apostate Israel, He ended the Law and as such, the apostate Children of Israel would no longer need, or have, His ark. Sorry, so much for your theory.

ROFL
Where is it written that God took the Ark of the Covenant into heaven?? Keep in mind this is a Christian web site so the Bible is the only religious document Christians use.

Here is a quote of Jesus about the law. So much for your assertion about the law.

Matthew 5:17 to 20 NIV

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
 
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Roadkill

Senior Member
Dec 19, 2017
237
3
18
No, I do not contradict the Bible sir, I explain it. Being raised from the dead is NOT being resurrected. Lazarus was raised from the dead (after 4 days), he was not resurrected from the dead at that time. Jesus was both raised from the dead and resurrected, having gone down to Hades and returned. In both cases as in other cases where Jesus brought the dead back to life, they were not dead long and had not yet seen corruption.

Revelation was not written in 95 AD. This is a false assumption based on one ancient writing which wasn't even a direct writing from a person with no first hand knowledge. Revelation is 99% over, Jerusalem was destroyed.
Lazarus was in the grave for 4 days in the middle east. You can bet there was decomposition going on. Ever been around a body after 4 days without it being embalmed? It's not a pretty sight.

Jerusalem is still on the map. The Temple was destroyed and Jerusalem went through a siege but the city was never renamed and was rebuilt and still there to this day. Revelation is a time period that is just around the corner................