The Rapture

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Tanakh,

God protects us from his wrath by the shed blood of Christ.Those who are appointed for it are unbelievers

As I continue to say, you an others who believe the above, do not understand the severity of God's coming wrath, or you wouldn't be saying that believers are going to be protected in the midst of it. This time of God's coming wrath is not going to be like anything the world has experienced. The main reason for this belief, is because you and others who believe this do so with only partial scriptural information. My advise is to go to my blogs and go through the detailed description of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Then you will get the full understanding as to why the church can't be here on the earth during the time of God's wrath. As an example, with just the 4th seal and the 6 trumpet, a fourth and a third, respectively, over half the earths population will be killed within just the first 3 1/2 years, and that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the fatalities from the bowl judgments.

Gods wrath is not limited to seven years, three and a half years or any fixed length of time but forever in other parts of the Bible its called Hell.

Well, the lake of fire is the final place of punishment. But make no mistake, God's wrath is coming upon this earth and the Lord is going to gather his church prior to that wrath. For He says that he will keep us "out of" that time of trial, not through it, or during, but "out of."

Do some study on the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and it should give you understanding as to the severity and why the church cannot be here.

 

[louis]

End,



This Jerusalem?

Gal 4: [SUP]26 [/SUP]but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Exactly!! He reigns from Heaven but also in the hearts and minds of all of us on earth who follow Him. This reigning on Earth is in our hearts and minds, not in some man-made future temple.


Who is the Bride of Christ? Continue in the passage you are quoting. I noticed you stopped at verse 8. Read on to verse 9:

"...“Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem.

What condition or state is John in here? He is in the spiritual state meaning he is literally in the spiritual realm. When you are "in the spirit" you are no longer in the physical realm. This new Jerusalem, located in the spiritual realm is massive. This sucker is 1500 cubic miles in size!!! No city of that magnitude could be located on our physical planet, Earth. It is so tall that it would reach past most of our satellites.

The below is the new Jerusalem also found in a book written by John:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you.

Guess what is missing in the new Jerusalem?

But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

The above verse blows the whole theory many have about Christ reigning in some literal temple. He doesn't and never will!! Let's skip to the end of the chapter:

[SUP]27 [/SUP]But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Where do you expect to find those who are written in the Lamb's Book? They have passed on to the spiritual realm. In the spiritual realm, there is no sun, no day and night as God and the Lamb are the light.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

So cool. Too bad you don't seem to get it, but these are the conditions which await all of us who follow and believe in Christ. The disciples are already there as are all of our brothers and sisters who have gone ahead of us these past 2,000 years.

I pretty much agree with your whole perspective, except for the part at the end where the Lords disciples, along with our brothers and sisters being now in heaven with the Lord.
According to Revelation 6:9-11, the saints who have been martyred for the Word have to wait for their fellow brethren who are to be murdered as they have been, before their being spiritually caught up to God and His throne.

Revelation 6:9 [FONT=&quot]And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.[/FONT]

 

[garee]

I agree with you on Matthew 16:22 but I'm not sure as to the State of Peter's mind when he denied knowing Jesus before the Cock crowed twice. He may have just been plain scared and trying to save his own skin. If this was indeed of Satan or of his own fear is unknown to me at this point and time.

Ultimately if the fear comes from any other source that trusting God not seen the fear is mingled with unbelief, no faith

The father of all lies is the author of Peter's mistrust just as in the Matthew 16:22 account.. We fear him because with him there is forgiveness. He forgave Peter each time in the same way.Violating even the least of one commandment a person will be found guilty of violating the whole and the expectation of the eternal wage is what can be expected if a person does not have the Spirit of Christ .The redeeming Spirit of forgiveness. he forgives all our sins and cast them as far as east is from the west, never again to come to His mind.

If he would take even one sin into account who could stand before his throne of grace and receive mercy?

If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, "who shall stand"?But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.Psa 130:3

 

[garee]

As I continue to say, you an others who believe the above, do not understand the severity of God's coming wrath, or you wouldn't be saying that believers are going to be protected in the midst of it. This time of God's coming wrath is not going to be like anything the world has experienced.

Of course we understand the severity of God's wrath it is being revealed every day men experience it every day whenever they sin . Men are still living in a body of death. No one has received the promise of their new incorruptible bodies that will be neither Jew nor gentile, male or female in the new heaven and earth .We are still under the Sun and moon the two time keepers . The final wrath will be on the last day, The same day that in the twinkling of the eye ....all born again men will receive the promise. Both those sleeping and those that remain reigning with Him by faith on this corrupted earth . The second and final resurrection. Remember God is not a man as us .....never was, never could be .A Creation has a beginning .our supernatural (without nature a beginning) God has none.

 

[Roadkill]

Not only does God bring His revelation as his interpretation but he also according to his poetic language give us the spiritual meaning hid in those parable like the parable chapter 20.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
according to the signified in terpretation of God used in parables ,

W hat does the literal word key represent spiritually if not the gospel not seen ? What does the literal word thousand represent spiritually as that hid form natural man that walks after the literal meanings? What is the signified meaning of a bottomless pit , or a chain . Can a literal chain bind a spirit of lies?

The parable in mind... below. Remember the prescription for seeing the unseen spiritual understanding found in that parable that uses the temporal thing seen

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

I will highlight the temporal .

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. Rev 20:1

First, the KJV of Revelation 1:1 does not have the sentence you have after John's name. Better Read the Last verse of Revelation 22:18 brother. That is a Dire Warning.

Second, these things are not Parables but Similes. Big difference, check your dictionary. Similes are there so we can have something to compare in this world to the next that our minds can not possibly understand as most of us have not any experiences with the Spiritual world. Parables are simple stories used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson as taught by Jesus.

The Language is not Poetic but in Spiritual Symbolism. Big difference again.

Revelation is NEVER to be taken out of context. To do this twists the Word of God.

I would by no means equate the Key to the Bottomless pit with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Chains of darkness is a Spiritual Simile for Some one being placed into a place much like Solitary Confinement in Prison. They can't escape and have no contact with anyone or anything while there, not even light or sound. Whether or not this involves an Actual Spiritual chain I do not know. But these Spiritual things that are Bound this way are not concepts or actions but Actual Beings. They are not Binding up Evil or Lies but the Beings that do these things.

A thousand years is not a Spiritual concept but an Actual Time Frame. Whether our time or God's time remains to be seen but I would assume that being this is Revelation towards Mankind it would be on our timeframe.

 

[Roadkill]

Ultimately if the fear comes from any other source that trusting God not seen the fear is mingled with unbelief, no faith

The father of all lies is the author of Peter's mistrust just as in the Matthew 16:22 account.. We fear him because with him there is forgiveness. He forgave Peter each time in the same way.Violating even the least of one commandment a person will be found guilty of violating the whole and the expectation of the eternal wage is what can be expected if a person does not have the Spirit of Christ .The redeeming Spirit of forgiveness. he forgives all our sins and cast them as far as east is from the west, never again to come to His mind.

If he would take even one sin into account who could stand before his throne of grace and receive mercy?

If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, "who shall stand"?But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.Psa 130:3

Yes and No on this. Man has the full capability to do evil on his own without the devil interfering in his choices. True he does influence us in a lot of things that are wrong but to say "The Devil Made Me Do It" all the time for a defense will not fly with God when he judges us.

 

[Roadkill]

I pretty much agree with your whole perspective, except for the part at the end where the Lords disciples, along with our brothers and sisters being now in heaven with the Lord.
According to Revelation 6:9-11, the saints who have been martyred for the Word have to wait for their fellow brethren who are to be murdered as they have been, before their being spiritually caught up to God and His throne.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The fact that they are given Robes signifies that they have bodies to be covered does it not? But this is not their permanent Resurrected bodies as they do wait on this as all of us do.

 

[Endoscopy]

Is Rapture even in the Bible?

Definition of rapture. 1 : an expression or manifestation of ecstasy or passion. 2 a : a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion. b : a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things.

We will be extremely happy when Jesus comes but how is it that this word is so common today when it isn't even in the Bible.

You are using the secular definition. In the Bible rapture is Jesus bringing the Christians to him. The word isn't used but is a theological term for what will happen. (There are other theological words that are used to refer to concepts in the Bible.) The dead will be raised and the living will be brought to him. Leaving the world with no Christians. At that point the tribulation is to start and be so devastating that if a limit of time isn't put on it all will be killed.

 

[Roadkill]

Hello Roadkill,

First, I'm not saying this to be contentious. But what is your conclusion going to be regarding this so-called angel if the ground breaking doesn't take place in May? Though Israel won the six day war, Moshe Dayan relinquished control of the temple mount to Islamic religious authorities, the Waqf, otherwise, Israel would have already built her temple. I believe that this was God's doing in order to keep Israel from building the temple before the proper time in order that Daniel 9:27 would be fulfilled.

It is that ruler/antichrist who will make it possible for Israel to build her temple on the temple mount and don't believe that it will take forty years, but will be erected wrath quickly, for the treaty that he makes with Israel is what will allow them to build the temple. And since they already have the blue prints for the temple and all of the furniture, the priestly garments and other items related to the temple ready to go, I believe that it will take them no time to build it and begin to present sacrifices and offerings. In short, it is the covenant that the antichrist makes with Israel which allows them to finally build their temple and begin to sacrifice and that in the beginning of the first 3 1/2 years. In addition, the church must be gathered prior to the making of this covenant.

One thing that can be concluded from this is that, if the ground breaking for the temple doesn't take place in May as this so-called angel told you, then He cannot be from God and that because God does not lie and what He says happens. I have to say that, I am extremely skeptical regarding your claim of receiving information from a so-called angel. Even more so when you have two people stating that God is communicating with them directly such as you and DiscipleDave, yet you are not in agreement with each other. God is not a God of confusion and anyone who is speaking on behalf of God should be in agreement regarding God's word.

True I do not agree with DiscipleDave in many things. I.E. Reincarnation it B.S! But somethings he is on the money. Am I to contradict the Truth? I think not no matter how imperfect the vessel.

True DiscipleDave does not always agree with me. I always defer to scripture when it is plainly stated.

Where does it say in Revelations that the Anti-Christ puts his seal of approval on the Temple being Built? Doesn't does it? He make a treaty with Israel for peace but breaks this in the midst of the 7 final years of Israel as a nation.

I said that this would be started in May of 2018 but that it would take 40 years to complete due to the Extreme Prejudice of the Region, as you can well imagine, this event will cause an upheaval in the Middle East that's going to last for a long time preventing them from completing it until the appointed time. When the Last brick of the Temple Mount is laid God is going to start his stop watch on Israel's 70th week as told to Daniel.

Yes they have everything for the temple already built, we all know this. But one thing they lack. That is the Ark of the Covenant. They can not build this again. Yes, they will find it again. It is still here on earth.

Do you think the Devil wants this info out yet? No he does not. He is doing everything to confuse and hide this from mankind upto and including burying the info deep in this forum where it will be very hard for an outsider to find for himself.

 

[louis]

The fact that they are given Robes signifies that they have bodies to be covered does it not? But this is not their permanent Resurrected bodies as they do wait on this as all of us do.

I think the white robes is an analogy that they are cleansed. The following chapter in Revelation 7 elaborates further on who these saints are and how they have washed their robes to make them white in the blood of the lamb.

Revelation 7:13 [FONT=&quot]And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.[/FONT]

 

[Roadkill]

A liar lies!! Period!!
Therefore anything you say comes from that angel I will assume to be a lie!!

May will prove or disprove this angel.

Where is the proof of your accusation that I lie? What have I directly contradicted in the Bible? I fully recognize it's authority.
What harm is in waiting until May to see for yourself being you know nothing of me or my work?
I am an imperfect vessel used by God to test your faith.
I am no one special or of any Significance, just a fellow brother. So why the attacks?

 

[Roadkill]

I think the white robes is an analogy that they are cleansed. The following chapter in Revelation 7 elaborates further on who these saints are and how they have washed their robes to make them white in the blood of the lamb.

Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

They wouldn't be where they were if they were not already clean. They wouldn't be anywhere near that place if otherwise.

 

[PlainWord]

One of the main reasons people believe in the rapture is the comment by Paul about Christians not being appointed for wrath,this of course is correct. What isnt correct is the interpretation of it. God protects us from his wrath by the shed blood of Christ.Those who are appointed for it are unbelievers. Gods wrath is not limited to seven years, three and a half years or any fixed length of time but forever in other parts of the Bible its called Hell.

There was the wrath against apostate Israel of the first century as found in Mt 3:7, Lk 21:23, Rom 4:15, Eph 2:3, Col 3:6, 1 Th 1:10, 2:16, Heb 3:11, Rev 6:16, 11:18, 14:10, 19, 15:7, and 16:19, etc. Where do you find God's wrath in our future? Obviously there will be judgment when each of us dies, but where do you find a group of people in the future being subjected to God's wrath?

 

[PlainWord]

I pretty much agree with your whole perspective, except for the part at the end where the Lords disciples, along with our brothers and sisters being now in heaven with the Lord.
According to Revelation 6:9-11, the saints who have been martyred for the Word have to wait for their fellow brethren who are to be murdered as they have been, before their being spiritually caught up to God and His throne.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Thanks for your kinds words. Daniel was told to "seal the book" (or scroll) in Dan 12:4 and that the book would remain sealed until the time of the end (of Israel) which happened in 70 AD. Christ was the only one found able to unseal the book or scroll in Rev 5:5. John begins Revelation with this:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, ​

[SUP]2 [/SUP]who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.​

​

The "servants" that Revelation went out to refers to the 7 churches of Asia Minor of the 0060s AD. The things Jesus reveals through John includes things "which must shortly take place, for the time is near." John was sent to Patmos by Nero after Nero was unsuccessful in killing John in a vat of boiling oil. Thus the visions John was given dealt with events of the first century, up to and including the destruction of Israel from 67-73 AD.
​

In Rev 18:24 we see the Harlot "Babylon" (first century Jerusalem) was to be punished for a very specific reason:

And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”

She had be found guilty of killing the prophets and saints. It is these same prophets and saints found under the alter (still in Hades) at the opening of the 5th seal. Jerusalem had been accused of being the Mother of all Harlots since she was betrothed to God as His Bride but instead entered into an adulterous affair with Rome. Jerusalem was guilty of shedding Christ's blood and those who did it said these terrifying and soon to be fulfilled words from Mt 27:

[SUP]25 [/SUP]And all the people answered and said, “His (Jesus') blood be on us and on our children.”

​

Indeed, they and their literal children were to soon pay for that. In Acts 26, Paul recounts his actions against the earlier church in Jerusalem like this:
​

[SUP]10 [/SUP]This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. ​

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And I punished them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities.​

​

Yes, the saints of the 5th seal were waiting for vengeance but they would not have to wait much longer because the Presence of the Lord returned to execute His wrath upon that faithless and perverse generation, the worst generation ever known to mankind (according to Titus and Jesus actually).​

Before all of this, Peter at Pentecost in Acts 3, citing Moses, makes this very bold (and accurate) prediction.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet (Jesus) shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ ​

​

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.​

​

​

They were in "those days" foretold by all the prophets from Samuel on down to Christ. Before Samuel even, Moses predicted the end of Israel in Deu 28 in an incredibly accurate and detailed way.​

It is time my brothers and sisters in Christ wake up and realize who God was mad at and that they were punished.
​

​

 

[louis]

Thanks for your kinds words. Daniel was told to "seal the book" (or scroll) in Dan 12:4 and that the book would remain sealed until the time of the end (of Israel) which happened in 70 AD. Christ was the only one found able to unseal the book or scroll in Rev 5:5. John begins Revelation with this:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, ​

[SUP]2 [/SUP]who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.​

The "servants" that Revelation went out to refers to the 7 churches of Asia Minor of the 0060s AD. The things Jesus reveals through John includes things "which must shortly take place, for the time is near." John was sent to Patmos by Nero after Nero was unsuccessful in killing John in a vat of boiling oil. Thus the visions John was given dealt with events of the first century, up to and including the destruction of Israel from 67-73 AD.
​

In Rev 18:24 we see the Harlot "Babylon" (first century Jerusalem) was to be punished for a very specific reason:

And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”

She had be found guilty of killing the prophets and saints. It is these same prophets and saints found under the alter (still in Hades) at the opening of the 5th seal. Jerusalem had been accused of being the Mother of all Harlots since she was betrothed to God as His Bride but instead entered into an adulterous affair with Rome. Jerusalem was guilty of shedding Christ's blood and those who did it said these terrifying and soon to be fulfilled words from Mt 27:

[SUP]25 [/SUP]And all the people answered and said, “His (Jesus') blood be on us and on our children.”

​

Indeed, they and their literal children were to soon pay for that. In Acts 26, Paul recounts his actions against the earlier church in Jerusalem like this:
​

[SUP]10 [/SUP]This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. ​

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And I punished them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities.​

​

Yes, the saints of the 5th seal were waiting for vengeance but they would not have to wait much longer because the Presence of the Lord returned to execute His wrath upon that faithless and perverse generation, the worst generation ever known to mankind (according to Titus and Jesus actually).​

Before all of this, Peter at Pentecost in Acts 3, citing Moses, makes this very bold (and accurate) prediction.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet (Jesus) shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ ​

​

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.​

​

​

They were in "those days" foretold by all the prophets from Samuel on down to Christ. Before Samuel even, Moses predicted the end of Israel in Deu 28 in an incredibly accurate and detailed way.​

It is time my brothers and sisters in Christ wake up and realize who God was mad at and that they were punished.
​

​

Hello PlainWord,
The book of Revelation was written circa 95 AD; and in Revelation 4:1, John is called up to heaven to be shown events that regard the hereafter, thereby indicating everything in following chapters of Revelation occurring after the 1st century AD.
In regards to whom you refer to as Israel of 70 AD; according to the Word in Romans 9:6, these individuals who did not believe the Lord in regards to truth, justice, and mercy, were no longer regarded as true Israel, and were displeasing to God, and thus the Lord eliminated them (1 Thessalonians 2:15-16).



Revelation 4:1 [FONT=&quot]After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Romans 9:[/FONT]6 [FONT=&quot]Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]1 Thessalonians 2:15 [FONT=&quot]Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.[/FONT]

 

[louis]

And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”

​

I recognize the great city Babylon who rules over all the worlds kingdoms (Revelation 17:18), representing a certain city's economic polices (the curse in Zechariah 5), which are adopted and go throughout the world, which are the cause for all the murders, thefts, and other abominations, throughout the world.

Revelation 17:18 [FONT=&quot]And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

[/FONT]Zechariah 5:2 [FONT=&quot]And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.[/FONT]

 

[PlainWord]

The fact that they are given Robes signifies that they have bodies to be covered does it not? But this is not their permanent Resurrected bodies as they do wait on this as all of us do.

Wow, this idea of disembodied souls has to stop. The "resurrection" was not about a reconstitution of a body, rather it was about the ascension of the dead spirits from Hades, the spiritual realm of the dead. It was about captives being "set free." All souls located in the spiritual realm have spiritual bodies. "They are sown in corruption" means the body goes into the ground, decays and is no more. They are raised in incorruption meaning during the resurrection, they raise out of Hades in spiritual form(bodies). This is what Paul was saying in 1 Cor 15.

This from Ecc 3:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]I said in my heart, “Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals.” ​

[SUP]19 [/SUP]For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. ​

[SUP]20 [/SUP]All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.​

Our physical bodies have the same fate as animal bodies - all return to dust - never to be seen again!! Not one earthly, physical molecule of our current body will be part of our spiritual body PERIOD.

​

It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.​

These are two separate bodies with absolutely no connection to each other!!

Paul is using the analogy of a seed going into the ground, decaying, disappearing but sprouting up a plant or tree. Yes, our bodies go into the ground and when the resurrection happened in 70 AD, those who died, were raised up out of Hades and set free. They already had a spiritual body because they were in the spiritual realm. A soul is invisible yet dead people were recognizable in the Parable of the Rich Man, Poor Man.

The Sadducees who didn't believe in the resurrection as they thought once you are dead, its over, no afterlife asked Jesus, "Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”

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They weren't thinking about when a dead person is in a new body whose wife she would be. Rather, they wanted to know in the afterlife, or spiritual realm, whose wife she would be. Jesus in His response tells them that in the resurrection they "are like angels of God in heaven." Jesus goes on to say, "But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
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Having a spiritual body is a given. Everyone has a spiritual body when they enter the spiritual realm, just as everyone has a physical body when we are born to this physical earth (realm). Having a spiritual body isn't the point. Having a spiritual body isn't what separates us from them. Being with God is the very definition of being spiritually alive. Being absent from God is the very definition of being spiritually dead. So, in the resurrection, those spiritually alive go to be with God while those who are spiritually dead - don't. THIS, is the "restoration of all things!" This is what was lost in the Garden and restored by Christ.​

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[PlainWord]

I recognize the great city Babylon who rules over all the worlds kingdoms (Revelation 17:18), representing a certain city's economic polices (the curse in Zechariah 5), which are adopted and go throughout the world, which are the cause for all the murders, thefts, and other abominations, throughout the world.

Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Zechariah 5:2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.

Zec 5 is not in focus here in Rev 17. First century Jerusalem was the focus as I pointed out. Rev is describing Jerusalem and relating her to Babylon of the 6th century BC. What happened in Babylon? They were forced into man worship:

“To you it is commanded, O peoples, nations, and languages, [SUP]5 [/SUP]that at the time you hear the sound of the horn, flute, harp, lyre, and psaltery, in symphony with all kinds of music, you shall fall down and worship the gold image that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up; [SUP]6 [/SUP]and whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast immediately into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.”​

[SUP]7 [/SUP]So at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the horn, flute, harp, and lyre, in symphony with all kinds of music, all the people, nations, and languages fell down and worshiped the gold image which King Nebuchadnezzar had set up.

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So, what was happening in the first century AD? Same thing, rejection of God in favor of man worship.

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John 19:15: But they cried out, “Away with Him, away with Him! Crucify Him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar!”​

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[PlainWord]

I recognize the great city Babylon who rules over all the worlds kingdoms (Revelation 17:18), representing a certain city's economic polices (the curse in Zechariah 5), which are adopted and go throughout the world, which are the cause for all the murders, thefts, and other abominations, throughout the world.

Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Zechariah 5:2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.

Actually, Revelation was not written in the 90s AD, rather it was written sometime between the death of Nero in 68 and the arrival of Titus in 70 AD. The idea of a mid-90s dating for the writing of Revelation comes from one, and only one source, that being St. Irenaeus in the late 100s BC, around 170. In his work, "Against Heresies" is one phrase where Irenaeus is recounting a meeting he had with Polycarp some 35 years earlier in which it might appear that John was given the Revelation during the reign of Domitian. However, the topic was about the identity of the antichrist which John still had not revealed at that time because he was still under Roman rule. So we have a 2nd hand account being recalled 35 years later with the topic in question. All other sources cite back to this one.

The context of Revelation is pre-wrath (70 AD) destruction of Jerusalem. The temple is still standing (Ch-11). The 7 churches were active churches in Asia Minor. Today, all are gone. The image of the Beast with the 7 heads and 10 horns perfectly fits Rome. The Harlot perfectly fits Jerusalem as she was also called a harlot before going into Babylonian captivity.

The seals, trumpets and bowls are all perfectly recorded by Josephus, including the return of Christ to destroy Jerusalem.

 

[louis]

Zec 5 is not in focus here in Rev 17. First century Jerusalem was the focus as I pointed out. Rev is describing Jerusalem and relating her to Babylon of the 6th century BC. What happened in Babylon? They were forced into man worship:

Where then do the two olive trees (the two witnesses) in Revelation 11, who prophesy for 1,260 days in Jerusalem, come into play during the first century; which by the way correlates with Zechariah 4.
In Zechariah 4:3 & 14 we have the description of the two olive trees who stand before the Lord. These are the same two olive trees (the two witnesses) in Revelation 11:4.

Zechariah 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
Zechariah 4:14 [FONT=&quot]Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot]of the whole earth.[/FONT]

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.