Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,022
4,441
113
I thinks me Savior would disapprove..........:)
Ooh I'm sure if you used it to his glory he would approve.

There is a guy over here called Stormzy.
He is a grime and hip hop artist.

He hit the charts with his music, not Christan focus to start with.

But now his songs hitting the charts are Christan focused.
And millions in the UK are hearing it.
It's played in the radio, played at football grounds, in shops and so on.

Here is one[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HPuj6UISMhs[/video]

Jesus may we all know your grace.
 
Last edited:

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Amen Cee......good to see another sword of truth with all the working for sinless perfectionists in here who flat deny Jesus by their self help guru psuedo salvation....
BTW, you have not responded to my post #58083. Would you mind?

The question is do you deny Jesus if you deny his words in the bible?
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
113
Yes I thought it was.

What confuses me is why you think these verses to you mean that you have committed murder in your heart when you get angry.

What is interesting is if you look at the following headings for the verses from the NKJV, NIV and NLT

Murder Begins in the Heart - NKJV

Murder - NIV

Teaching about Anger - NLT

I do not think Jesus is saying here that being angry is the same as committing murder.

From Mathew 5:17 Jesus is teaching about the law and how the Pharisees distorted the true intent and added to it.

Matthew 5:21


21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’

The expression refers to the traditional interpretation of the teachers of religious law and Pharisees. Though their traditions prohibited murder, they did not prohibit hatred. The surpassing righteousness of Jesus demands reconciliation (5:23-24); merely refraining from committing murder is not sufficient (NKJV study notes)

Matthew 5:22
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.


5:22 The scribes and Pharisees said that a person who referred to another as Raca, meaning “empty head,” was in danger of being sued for libel before the council (or the Sanhedrin). On the other hand, Jesus said that whoever calls another a fool will have to answer to God. That is not to say that calling someone a fool will condemn a believer to eternal punishment in hell. Rather Jesus was saying that to utter such words is to place oneself in a worse condition at the time of judgment (see 1 Cor. 3:12–15). NKJV study notes.

So as I said, I think Jesus is not saying being angry in your heart is committing murder.
He is correcting what the Pharisees were saying and teaching the true intent of the law.

Furthermore the reason I think this is because

Matthew 5:43-44
Love Your Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

The Pharisees taught "Love your neighbour and hate your enemy"
Jesus said "Love your enemy as well"

Exodus 23:4


4 “If you meet your enemy's ox or his donkey going astray, you shall surely bring it back to him again.

Leviticus 19:18
18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

19:18 love your neighbor as yourself. See v. 34; quoted by Christ (Mt 22:39; Mk 12:31; Lk 10:27), Paul (Ro 13:9; Gal 5:14) and James (2:8). The stricter Pharisees (school of Shammai) added to this command what they thought it implied: “Hate your enemy” (Mt 5:43; see note there). Jesus’ reaction, “Love your enemies,” was in line with true OT teaching (see vv. 17, 34) and was more in agreement with the middle-of-the-road Pharisees. Rabbi Nahmanides (thirteenth century) caught their sentiments: “One should place no limitations upon the love for the neighbor, but instead a person should love to do an abundance of good for his fellow being as he does for himself.” “Neighbor” does not merely mean one who lives nearby, but anyone with whom one comes in contact (see Lk 10:25–36 and notes). NIV Study notes.

Sorry for the long post.

Jesus a little more to go.

Matthew 5:27-28
Adultery in the Heart
27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Notice lust in the heart is equal to adultery.
You've thought is therefore have done it.

He did not say that about anger.

Finally Paul says

Ephesians 4:26-27
26 And “don’t sin by letting anger control you.” Don’t let the sun go down while you are still angry,27 for anger gives a foothold to the devil.

He does not say "Anger is akin to murder"

He says it gives satan a foothold.[already




I believe the main thrust of that teaching was that the law was spiritual, not by the mere letter as they had been taught.

That it isn't what a man does on his outside that has defiled him, but that he defiles himself within first by what comes out of his heart. That the act of murder has happened already inside and the act of adultery has happened already inside. This is regardless of whether or not you keep the outside clean looking by not committing the outward act.

This is my understanding of the teaching. It would seem odd to me for Him to say having thoughts and fantasies about someone other than your spouse is to have already committed adultery but that to have thoughts and fantasies about revengeful anger and bitter turmoil is not to commit murder already.

He took the whole teaching straight to a mans heart and what his heart is doing and thinking.

And we know it is what comes out of a mans heart that defiles him.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,022
4,441
113
Yes I thought it was.

What confuses me is why you think these verses to you mean that you have committed murder in your heart when you get angry.

What is interesting is if you look at the following headings for the verses from the NKJV, NIV and NLT

Murder Begins in the Heart - NKJV

Murder - NIV

Teaching about Anger - NLT

I do not think Jesus is saying here that being angry is the same as committing murder.

From Mathew 5:17 Jesus is teaching about the law and how the Pharisees distorted the true intent and added to it.

Matthew 5:21


21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’

The expression refers to the traditional interpretation of the teachers of religious law and Pharisees. Though their traditions prohibited murder, they did not prohibit hatred. The surpassing righteousness of Jesus demands reconciliation (5:23-24); merely refraining from committing murder is not sufficient (NKJV study notes)

Matthew 5:22
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.


5:22 The scribes and Pharisees said that a person who referred to another as Raca, meaning “empty head,” was in danger of being sued for libel before the council (or the Sanhedrin). On the other hand, Jesus said that whoever calls another a fool will have to answer to God. That is not to say that calling someone a fool will condemn a believer to eternal punishment in hell. Rather Jesus was saying that to utter such words is to place oneself in a worse condition at the time of judgment (see 1 Cor. 3:12–15). NKJV study notes.

So as I said, I think Jesus is not saying being angry in your heart is committing murder.
He is correcting what the Pharisees were saying and teaching the true intent of the law.

Furthermore the reason I think this is because

Matthew 5:43-44
Love Your Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

The Pharisees taught "Love your neighbour and hate your enemy"
Jesus said "Love your enemy as well"

Exodus 23:4


4 “If you meet your enemy's ox or his donkey going astray, you shall surely bring it back to him again.

Leviticus 19:18
18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

19:18 love your neighbor as yourself. See v. 34; quoted by Christ (Mt 22:39; Mk 12:31; Lk 10:27), Paul (Ro 13:9; Gal 5:14) and James (2:8). The stricter Pharisees (school of Shammai) added to this command what they thought it implied: “Hate your enemy” (Mt 5:43; see note there). Jesus’ reaction, “Love your enemies,” was in line with true OT teaching (see vv. 17, 34) and was more in agreement with the middle-of-the-road Pharisees. Rabbi Nahmanides (thirteenth century) caught their sentiments: “One should place no limitations upon the love for the neighbor, but instead a person should love to do an abundance of good for his fellow being as he does for himself.” “Neighbor” does not merely mean one who lives nearby, but anyone with whom one comes in contact (see Lk 10:25–36 and notes). NIV Study notes.

Sorry for the long post.

Jesus a little more to go.

Matthew 5:27-28
Adultery in the Heart
27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Notice lust in the heart is equal to adultery.
You've thought is therefore have done it.

He did not say that about anger.

Finally Paul says

Ephesians 4:26-27
26 And “don’t sin by letting anger control you.” Don’t let the sun go down while you are still angry,27 for anger gives a foothold to the devil.

He does not say "Anger is akin to murder"

He says it gives satan a foothold.[already




I believe the main thrust of that teaching was that the law was spiritual, not by the mere letter as they had been taught.

That it isn't what a man does on his outside that has defiled him, but that he defiles himself within first by what comes out of his heart. That the act of murder has happened already inside and the act of adultery has happened already inside. This is regardless of whether or not you keep the outside clean looking by not committing the outward act.

This is my understanding of the teaching. It would seem odd to me for Him to say having thoughts and fantasies about someone other than your spouse is to have already committed adultery but that to have thoughts and fantasies about revengeful anger and bitter turmoil is not to commit murder already.

He took the whole teaching straight to a mans heart and what his heart is doing and thinking.

And we know it is what comes out of a mans heart that defiles him.
Can you not separate the two?

Can you quote a verse where Jesus said 'Anger in the heart is the same as committing murder"
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
113
Can you not separate the two?

Can you quote a verse where Jesus said 'Anger in the heart is the same as committing murder"
Mmm...no, I can't really separate the two. I sort of see the whole teaching together. It would seem funny to me to say a man can commit adultery in his heart but it is impossible for him to murder in his heart...I mean, we even have phrases like...in her look I saw murderous rage or...if looks could kill. And we all have known bitter anger that wants revenge in ourselves.society even teaches us socially acceptable ways to "get even" but in a passive aggressive manner.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,022
4,441
113
Mmm...no, I can't really separate the two. I sort of see the whole teaching together. It would seem funny to me to say a man can commit adultery in his heart but it is impossible for him to murder in his heart...I mean, we even have phrases like...in her look I saw murderous rage or...if looks could kill. And we all have known bitter anger that wants revenge in ourselves.society even teaches us socially acceptable ways to "get even" but in a passive aggressive manner.
Jesus seemed to separate the two.

Jesus as far as I know never said "Anger in your heart is the same as murdering someone"

They the phrases we here today that people say.
Jesus never said them.

Your say and it's true "Bitter anger wants revenge"

That's what Jesus was saying. Anger will want revenge, therefore let it go. Release it to God.
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
113
Jesus seemed to separate the two.

Jesus as far as I know never said "Anger in your heart is the same as murdering someone"

They the phrases we here today that people say.
Jesus never said them.

Your say and it's true "Bitter anger wants revenge"

That's what Jesus was saying. Anger will want revenge, therefore let it go. Release it to God.
Yes. He was addressing the bitter anger at the root of the problem, in a mans heart. And if the heart (the inside of the cup) is clean, then the outside just will be as well.

And I have other verses that tell me about anger and what it will lead to if I give into the temptation to be angry with a brother. As you said, it gives satan a foothold and I can be swept under.

But now is the time to get rid of anger, rage, malicious behavior, slander, and dirty language.

In Colossians 3

Ephesians 4:26 [Full Chapter]
And “don’t sin by letting anger control you.” Don’t let the sun go down while you are still angry,

Sin is crouching at the door waiting to devour you, but you must be its master. Genesis.

The ephesians verse tells me not even to go to bed angry (my paraphrase). To take care of the matter. To not let it fester and swell. And the only way I know to do that is to take it directly to God who will give me, along with the temptation, a way out.
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
113
Jesus seemed to separate the two.

Jesus as far as I know never said "Anger in your heart is the same as murdering someone"

They the phrases we here today that people say.
Jesus never said them.

Your say and it's true "Bitter anger wants revenge"

That's what Jesus was saying. Anger will want revenge, therefore let it go. Release it to God.
Does it seem fair to you that Jesus would be saying, if you murder you will be subject to the fires of hell. and if you are angry at your brother you will be subject to the fires of hell. Surely murder is worse than anger, isn't it? So why is the penalty for murder the same as the penalty for anger? Can you really not see that He was equating the two? It's okay if you can't. Its just so clear to me.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,022
4,441
113
Does it seem fair to you that Jesus would be saying, if you murder you will be subject to the fires of hell. and if you are angry at your brother you will be subject to the fires of hell. Surely murder is worse than anger, isn't it? So why is the penalty for murder the same as the penalty for anger? Can you really not see that He was equating the two? It's okay if you can't. Its just so clear to me.
Sorry but I can't.

Because I cannot see where Jesus is saying "Being angry is the same as committing murder"

He is addressing

Matthew 5:22
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

But I cannot see him saying "Call some Raca or a fool then you have committed murder"

Anyway precious sister.

Much love and grace to you.

Your brother in Jesus.

Bill
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
113
Sorry but I can't.

Because I cannot see where Jesus is saying "Being angry is the same as committing murder"

He is addressing

Matthew 5:22
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

But I cannot see him saying "Call some Raca or a fool then you have committed murder"

Anyway precious sister.

Much love and grace to you.

Your brother in Jesus.

Bill

Okay. :)
Why do you think the penalty for murder is the same penalty for anger? What are your thoughts on why?
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
113
Bill you said earlier that Jesus was teaching here that the Pharisees had added to the law.
But it seems to me that JESUS is the one adding to their understanding of the law.

THEY said if you murder you're in danger of the judgement.
JESUS said, if your even angry with you brother you're in danger of the judgement.