Not By Works

[Stunnedbygrace]

For me trust is believing Jesus and actually obeying Him.

Yes...BUT, if anger is murder in your heart, how can you expect to obey Him? You yourself have said it is impossible for you to never be angry or resent in your heart. So by your own admission, it is impossible for you, despite all your best efforts, to obey and keep the command. So the answer is not to then say: well then, it's not true that anger in my heart is murder, because that would make me disobedient and sinful - a murderer.

Jesus came to show us the truth about who we are and what we need to
do. If we find a problem it is us who are the problem and not what He
has said.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Working it through our hearts, spending time with Him, in praise, in worship,
in His word, will make it plain.

I wholeheartedly agree.

As soon as you start denying His words you have missed it, and are listening
to sin and impurity within ones own heart.

I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Ralph-]

There was a time when I would have wondered at how believers could react like this,
but then, in the reformation how many murdered each other in the name of Christ?

I've learned to discern whether or not to consider a person a real believer by how they act, not by the correctness of their doctrine. And I don't mean how they act in isolated circumstances and under various provocations, but what characterizes them overall. Some people are very consistent in their abuse of others in this forum and that tells me to not consider them born again. There are others who I consider to not have accurate doctrine but by the way they treat others I feel safe in considering them a true fellow believer.

The interesting thing is that is the one thing that fake believers can't fake. In the end, they can't be good people. They are the opposite of believers. Generally speaking, believers are characterized as being good natured but can get caught up in the moment and act badly, while unbelievers act badly but occasionally get caught up in the moment and act good. And genuine believers are good at receiving rebuke and correction. Unbelievers, hardly ever. This is how I discern who to trust as a brother and who not to.

Knowing Christ is not about having doctrinal excellence and accuracy. We show we know Christ, and he knows us, by how we treat people.......especially our enemies, those who oppose us.

 

[benhur]

The reason that you do not need to explain anything to me is because I will never buy your errors....especially your cake taking false losable salvation...I suggest you actually trust Jesus biblically before your time under the sun is up!

Very well, if you do not need to be taught, then teach us.

Analogy of the parable of the merciful king (Matthew 18:23-35)

The King = Jesus
The debtor = all mortals, who believe in Jesus
The debt = sin
The forgiving of debt = the grace of Jesus given as a gift to all mortals that believe in Jesus, to wash away there sins, that saves and justifies.

Ok, with the analogy complete, teach us what happened to the debtor (whose sins had been washed away and was saved and justified), once he was found out by his merciful master that he had been unforgiving to another far less debtor?

And BTW, especially help us understand the last verse (Matthew 18:35)

Thank you.

 

[gb9]

I've learned to discern whether or not to consider a person a real believer by how they act, not by the correctness of their doctrine. And I don't mean how they act in isolated circumstances and under various provocations, but what characterizes them overall. Some people are very consistent in their abuse of others in this forum and that tells me to not consider them born again. There are others who I consider to not have accurate doctrine but by the way they treat others I feel safe in considering them a true fellow believer.

The interesting thing is that is the one thing that fake believers can't fake. In the end, they can't be good people. They are the opposite of believers. Generally speaking, believers are characterized as being good natured but can get caught up in the moment and act badly, while unbelievers act badly but occasionally get caught up in the moment and act good. And genuine believers are good at receiving rebuke and correction. Unbelievers, hardly ever. This is how I discern who to trust as a brother and who not to.

Knowing Christ is not about having doctrinal excellence and accuracy. We show we know Christ, and he knows us, by how we treat people.......especially our enemies, those who oppose us.

it is not up to you, nor anyone, to judge if someone is saved or not. try to cover it by claiming " discernment ", but is just being judgemental . which we were told not to do.

 

[LightLoveHope]

That is in fact what leads to the real truth. Not many people will do this though. They choose to hunker down in a hardened position in the un-rightly divided verse or passage of scripture they are using to push their beliefs. It seems to be the primary mark of false doctrine-a verse or passage that is being un-rightly divided out from the whole context of the Bible.

Once you see the truth of families emotional history, you know that one family
set up is going to repeat itself in the next generation. It is inevitable.
Until Jesus comes in with transforming love, that helps believers become mature
loving, caring, hopeful, peaceable, mature members of society.

Much of what Jesus shares until it changes ones view, you can interpret it
whatever way you like to make you happy. I have seen this time upon time,
because sinful behavior is excused and repentance not enacted, so the distortions
and echoes remain stopping healing and growth. I even saw this in a mature gifted
used man of God, who lost the plot, but came back.

It is why we need the body, we need the word, we need ministry, we need fellowship,
we need everything Jesus provides and after all we might stand.

There is no magic wand, it is God leading us to grow in love and the Kingdom, to choose
to stand for it and eternity despite what man might say. This is what speaks before the
throne, each and every day. Praise the Lord for His mercy and grace.

Until you face the arguments and problems the apostles were answering, their words appear
sometimes out of context. Here on cc, I learnt that context against the many heresies and
false teachers being followed. It is also why I have come more alive and assertive, because
I see what my brothers and sisters were fighting for. Amen.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Stunned,

You see what you want to see.
Anger has not been an issue for me.

Anger has been an issue for every living man. If it wasn't, no one would need to forgive others.

I am not resentful about others. So please try not to project your issues on
to me.

By your own admission to me sometime back, you said it was impossible to never have anger and resentment at anyone ever. You said just being married and having children made it impossible to never have anger or resentment.

So please, what you feel is impossible is not impossible with Christ in your heart.

Yes. That's trusting Him to make you law abiding even though you know it is impossible for men - all things are possible with God.

 

[gb9]

Stunned,

You see what you want to see.
Anger has not been an issue for me. But it appears to be an issue for you.
I am not resentful about others. So please try not to project your issues on
to me. You think you have rights, things to defend, to stand up for.
Look at my contributions just on cc. I do not have an anger issue, rather for
some the opposite, they want me to get riled up. Praise the Lord He brings me
peace and love to share.

So please, what you feel is impossible is not impossible with Christ in your heart.
Listen to Jesus,

Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
John 14:27

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:22-23

I have reason to be angry with many for their false accusations and slander.
But Jesus tells me, this is what the gospel does in the heart of man.
He tells us this is what people will do.

They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.
John 16:2

I have spoken to people who would happily kill me. I have had people attempt
this very thing, yet I think for many they find it hard to conceive hatred that deep.

For a believer to claim I blaspheme God by obeying Him and listening to Him is a
step on this very road.

If you want to know where you are on the spiritual scale, just preach His word and
walk in His ways. Only the Lords people will be your friends.

There was a time when I would have wondered at how believers could react like this,
but then, in the reformation how many murdered each other in the name of Christ?

so, when someone disagrees with you, it is because you are preaching the Gospel, and it angering our hearts.

so, I gave you the Biblical definition of grace, free grace , and you rejected it, then you claim to speak the Gospel, with grace being a centerpiece of it.

since you do not like Biblical definitions, try this one - congnitive dissidence .

 

[Endoscopy]

Yes! I have seen the biases.

One man insists that if eternal security is true, (and the bible does say it) then it cannot be true that if I don't forgive I won't be forgiven.

Another man says that if it is true I will not be forgiven if I don't forgive (and the bible does say it,) then it cannot be true that there is eternal security.

BOTH men have a bias. BOTH men are solving the apparent contradiction by doing away with some of the word of God. That will never work.

This is the reason to have all verses on the subject in context. There is a truism that you can prove anything by using verses of the Bible. This goes away by putting verses in context and associated with sections of the Bible on the same topic. Many times a verse is meant for a person in a particular situation and might need to be modified depending on the circumstances.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

so, when someone disagrees with you, it is because you are preaching the Gospel, and it angering our hearts.

so, I gave you the Biblical definition of grace, free grace , and you rejected it, then you claim to speak the Gospel, with grace being a centerpiece of it.

since you do not like Biblical definitions, try this one - congnitive dissidence .

The word would be "dissonance" not "dissidence."

 

[LightLoveHope]

Yes...BUT, if anger is murder in your heart, how can you expect to obey Him? You yourself have said it is impossible for you to never be angry or resent in your heart. So by your own admission, it is impossible for you, despite all your best efforts, to obey and keep the command. So the answer is not to then say: well then, it's not true that anger in my heart is murder, because that would make me disobedient and sinful - a murderer.

I am sorry. I have not said it is impossible to not be angry at people.
I have said anger is an appropriate response in certain circumstances.
And Jesus is saying we have no justification to be angry against a fellow brother or sister in Christ.

And to be honest, I am not sure I have ever been angry at anyone in Christ.
Now if you are saying all anger is a sin, then I do not agree with you. Jesus did not say this.

I think you are extending legalism into emotional flare-ups?
And as I do not have anger or resentment as an issue where is you point?

Is it a sin for a parent to be angry with their child?
Is it a sin for a teacher to be angry with a pupil?
Is it a sin for a husband to be angry with their wife or the wife with their husband?

You appear to be claiming this is murder? Please help me understand you reference points.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Much of what Jesus shares until it changes ones view, you can interpret it
whatever way you like to make you happy. I have seen this time upon time,
because sinful behavior is excused and repentance not enacted, so the distortions
and echoes remain stopping healing and growth.

Yes. Like interpreting that anger and resentment are NOT murder. This excuses sinful behavior and leads to no repentance for murder.

 

[Ralph-]

it is not up to you, nor anyone, to judge if someone is saved or not. try to cover it by claiming " discernment ", but is just being judgemental . which we were told not to do.

Jesus told us we can consider someone saved or not-Matthew 18:17.

 

[Ralph-]

Yes. Like interpreting that anger and resentment are NOT murder. This excuses sinful behavior and leads to no repentance for murder.

John said hatred is as murder. And Paul, quoting the Psalmist, said to be angry but sin not. Be careful to not isolate what Jesus said from the whole counsel of the Bible.

I've been angry enough at my own family to start throwing things around, but that does not automatically have to mean I hate them.

 

[LightLoveHope]

so, when someone disagrees with you, it is because you are preaching the Gospel, and it angering our hearts.

so, I gave you the Biblical definition of grace, free grace , and you rejected it, then you claim to speak the Gospel, with grace being a centerpiece of it.

since you do not like Biblical definitions, try this one - congnitive dissidence .

Hi gb9,

My friend, the gospel is about changing us within through the love on the cross.
Are you in denial about this, and it has had no effect on you?

And you say I reject something, but you do not say what. That is meaningless and
not helpful to anyone. Jesus is grace to us, the door to life the path to eternity.
But to you it appears you reject the path and the walk, and say this is irrelevant.

If Jesus is the way, and the way is obedience, what are you objecting to and if you
are not objecting to this why are you posting as if you are????

 

[Endoscopy]

so, when someone disagrees with you, it is because you are preaching the Gospel, and it angering our hearts.

so, I gave you the Biblical definition of grace, free grace , and you rejected it, then you claim to speak the Gospel, with grace being a centerpiece of it.

since you do not like Biblical definitions, try this one - congnitive dissidence .

Disagreements about scripture happened in the early church. The elders got together and created the Apostles Creed to define who is and isn't a Christian. Anything outside this is considered that we agree to disagree. This came about with an early version known as the Roman Creed dates to the second century. The current version dates to 341 AD. And a commentary on it is dated to 390 AD. Anything outside this creed is OK to disagree about. Most of the comments on this board fall into that category.

 

[benhur]

I've learned to discern whether or not to consider a person a real believer by how they act, not by the correctness of their doctrine. And I don't mean how they act in isolated circumstances and under various provocations, but what characterizes them overall. Some people are very consistent in their abuse of others in this forum and that tells me to not consider them born again. There are others who I consider to not have accurate doctrine but by the way they treat others I feel safe in considering them a true fellow believer.

The interesting thing is that is the one thing that fake believers can't fake. In the end, they can't be good people. They are the opposite of believers. Generally speaking, believers are characterized as being good natured but can get caught up in the moment and act badly, while unbelievers act badly but occasionally get caught up in the moment and act good. And genuine believers are good at receiving rebuke and correction. Unbelievers, hardly ever. This is how I discern who to trust as a brother and who not to.

Knowing Christ is not about having doctrinal excellence and accuracy. We show we know Christ, and he knows us, by how we treat people.......especially our enemies, those who oppose us.

Thank you for these wise words.

 

[gb9]

Hi gb9,

My friend, the gospel is about changing us within through the love on the cross.
Are you in denial about this, and it has had no effect on you?

And you say I reject something, but you do not say what. That is meaningless and
not helpful to anyone. Jesus is grace to us, the door to life the path to eternity.
But to you it appears you reject the path and the walk, and say this is irrelevant.

If Jesus is the way, and the way is obedience, what are you objecting to and if you
are not objecting to this why are you posting as if you are????

this thread- page 2899, post #57977, I gave you the definition of grace.

page 2900, post # 57994, you rejected that definition.

so there, in case you forgot. I did not.

 

[Magenta]

Thank you for these wise words.

The interesting thing about all that was said is that the person who said it is one of the most consistent abusers of members here Applying what they have said to them, then, we can ascertain that they are not a true believer.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Yes. Like interpreting that anger and resentment are NOT murder. This excuses sinful behavior and leads to no repentance for murder.

So you believer anger in any context is murder.
To you is getting angry murder. So you are hit accidently by someone and your get angry.
Opps you just murdered them. Or you resent the way someone greets you at the door,
opps you just murdered them. You seem to be a mass murderer, who cannot distinguish
between natural reactions and choosing to focus anger on individuals.

And you are not listening to Jesus. He specifically said brother, not neighbor and it is only
mentioned in the gospel of Matthew, once, so not a big teaching.

Something about me you need to know. In school growing up a particular boy liked starting
fights. I was not bothered and mainly ignored him. Once I got irritated and got into a fight
but even then I quickly stopped. I have always loved people, and wanted to find a way of
understanding and resolving situations. So to talk about anger and resentment so much
is not something I have a problem with, rather maybe the opposite, not reacting enough over
situations.

 

[VCO]

Amen, all believers are sinners saved by grace that we have nothing to boast about.



Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.
Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Galatians 6:1-3

Jesus talks of the seed and the sower some springing up quickly but when
trouble comes they fall away.

I can just reflect this in some people I know. It is not for me to judge or
make conclusions. Strangely my love in not judging others or closing the door
saying they must not be a believers or know the Lord.

And how can believers reject so strongly walking in Jesus's ways and those who
encourage such a thing? This is the only "sin" I am guilty of, yet from the reaction
you would think I am the worst person ever, evil beyond description or someone said
a blasphemer. It makes you wonder what some actually believe and do they know
their own hearts and others, because this language is the most discouraging judgemental
and damaging a believer could ever receive unless they were truly grounded in Christ.

I have found sometimes when people find God in a real way, they then judge everyone as
lost who they think is like them before, not seeing they can only speak for their own walk
and not others.

Now a loving heart, knows how to draw people to the loving King. Praise the Lord He found
you and has ministered to you over the years, Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus, Amen.

<><.t.><>

I got News For You. Those that FELL AWAY were NEVER truly Christians in the First Place. The Parable of the Sower is talking about only ONE type of TRUE CHRISTIANS, and One Type of Unbeliever, PLUS two types of PRETEND so-called Christians.


1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.


What part of NONE do you not understand?

They are the same BUNCH as HE mentioned here, as He called them MANY.


Matthew 7:13-23 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'


"I never knew you" is a reference to the lack of that Inner Personal LOVE Relationship that we call Born Again.