Not By Works

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Dec 4, 2017
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Have a look at what DC is saying.

"We are saved by faith alone, at that point we are placed in the vine"

So is that true or not?
Are we saved by faith or not?

Then DC states that having been saved by faith and in the vine then we grow, mature and are transforming.
Effectively sanctification.
He is saying if you're in the vine you will grow as a result of your faith in Jesus.

But he is not saying if there is no evidence of growth that its of little concern.
I'm sure he would be concerned.
I'm also sure that if he was concerned with a believer he would pull them aside, talk to them and walk with them.

I'm sure he will correct me if I have got his thoughts wrong.

If we think about it.

Did any works save us before we came to Jesus?

Jesus said

John 6:29


29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

John 16:8-9
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

So the work of God is to believe in Jesus, so Jesus after he rose again goes back to the Father, the Holy Spirit then comes to convict us of the sin of unbelief in Jesus.

So we see that this is the work of God.

We repent of that unbelief then we are placed in the vine.
Placing our faith in Jesus is not a work.
That's changing from disobedience to obedience.

When we place faith in Jesus it's the start of a new season, a new walk, being a new man.

You raise an interesting point when you say "If I choose to be obedient"

Bear with me on this one, it may not make sense but I hope you get my intent.

We know that the works we do are either good are bad.

A simple example to look at is adultery.

Paul said adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Now a married person may never commit adultery. They may never physically sleep with another person and would never consider doing so. Great work.

The reverse.

Jesus said "Even if you look at a woman lustfully you have committed adultery"

If you do so its a bad work.
Therefore we have to choose to be obedient and not go down that route.
When we do then we are doing good works as such.

As Jesus increases in us, we decrease.

Obedience to works are not just the physical but also the spiritual.
No,
I disagree with your statement that the Ruach Haqodosh will convict a believer of unbelief.
Huh?

That is exactly what is going on here by fruitless conversation.

You ignored what Yeshua plainly Say's.

The world is convicted.

Kinda like in the world not of it.
Or keep yourself pure and undefiled by the world.

I could go on.
But I know the reading Believers are shaking their head.

You cannot justify dcon's actions here.

If the Word is choked out by the world?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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You are the one that put my character in a bad light in your post #57584. Here is what you said:
You should be more concerned with the lovers of self who use Jesus to justify their hypocrisy.

So I responded by saying is my faith and trust in Jesus compromised by my doing good works? Because you obviously think that because I talk about good works I am somehow a lover of myself and even use Jesus to justify my hypocrisy. You want to talk about an odd statement from one bible-reading Christian to another bible-reading Christian.

What that statement says to me, loud and clear is: if I do not believe the way you believe 100%, then I am a lover of myself and I use Jesus to justify my hypocrisy.

And BTW, what hypocrisy do I justify?
Well, you are responsible for what you read into what I say. You were scolding David saying HE should be concerned for his image as a believer in Christ, while you seemingly ignore those whose hypocrisy is glaring, those who are constantly focusing on the supposed sins of others while they pat themselves on the back, constantly saying works are a necessity but they need not do anything aside from resting in the grace of God. They will go on and on about how you must be sinless or you are not saved, while giving themselves permission to fail and fall into sin at times, and still be saved. You seem to count yourself among the hypocrites? I accused you of nothing. You did that yourself.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 13:35, “By this shall all know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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Leviticus 19

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]9, "‘And when you reap the harvest of your land, do not completely reap the corners of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]10, "‘And do not glean your vineyard or gather every grape of your vineyard, leave them for the poor and the stranger. I am [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]your Strength."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]11, "‘Do not steal, do not lie, do not deceive one another."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]12, "‘And do not swear falsely by My Name and so profane the Name of your Strength. I am [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]13, "‘Do not oppress your neighbor or rob him. The wages of him who is hired is not to remain with you all night until morning."[/FONT]
 

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Walk trough the valley
In the last year have changed clothing and believe in a rapture of the saints: those who have pure hearts, who Love the Lord with the whole heart; meaning they are filled with the Holy Spirit. This is available to all: those who believe in "Work while it is yet today, for the night comes when no man can work, and those who believe the same thing differently, "This is the work of God that you believe (follow) the one whom He has sent." Whether you believe Grace is work (of God) or you believe it effortless is not relevant as we don't know God in our understanding, but in Love of the Truth that is in Jesus.
Earlier yesterday evening was pondering my need to seek the Lord first, as He told me in December and to take time alone in the wilderness again to wait on the Lord and the Lord told me: You don't have much time left. coincidently later watched this video: This link is from a 2 year old describing a vision of the return of the Lord and of the rap.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...9&&FORM=VDRVRV
Am really not trying to change anyone, from experience, not something I could do. Neither does God appear intent on changing our beliefs, He appears to Love us as we are hoping it's mutual.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 32:8 “I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will counsel you with my eye upon you”[/FONT]
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Another post with a lot of hot air ^^^^^, no substance and nothing more than opinion from a working for sinless perfectionist.....and your cited scripture has nothing to do with gaining eternal salvation/life.....context alludes you once again!
Again you mock, and call names. Not a good way to discuss the issue.

We 'workers' cannot do enough good works to become sinless perfectionists. We must believe in Jesus Christ and have faith in him and trust that he will sanctify us and finally justify our entrance into his Kingdom. We know that and you know that we know that. So why do you continue to say those mocking words?
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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not outright with admitted writing from the O.p.
no, of course not.
it is only subtly insinuated in order to cause strife.

There is no edification in this thread, zero.
A fruitless fig tree.

Has anyone even sat down and listened to the Ruach of Life and taken into account where they are going to store treasures?

If not, what kind of tent is the person who is left only with a foundation.

Well, i will encourage everyone to build, and if not they will be sharply rebuked by our Lord when he gets here.

“The Kingdom of Heaven at that time will be like ten bridesmaids who took their lamps and went out to meet the groom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were sensible. 3 The foolish ones took lamps with them but no oil, 4 whereas the others took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 Now the bridegroom was late, so they all went to sleep. 6 It was the middle of the night when the cry rang out, ‘The bridegroom is here! Go out to meet him!’ 7 The girls all woke up and prepared their lamps for lighting. 8 The foolish ones said to the sensible ones, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’ 9 ‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both you and us. Go to the oil dealers and buy some for yourselves.’ 10 But as they were going off to buy, the bridegroom came. Those who were ready went with him to the wedding feast, and the door was shut. 11 Later, the other bridesmaids came. ‘Sir! Sir!’ they cried, ‘Let us in!’ 12 But he answered, ‘Indeed! I tell you, I don’t know you!’ 13 So stay alert, because you know neither the day nor the hour.
14 “For it will be like a man about to leave home for awhile, who entrusted his possessions to his servants. 15 To one he gave five talents [equivalent to a hundred years’ wages]; to another, two talents; and to another, one talent — to each according to his ability. Then he left. 16 The one who had received five talents immediately went out, invested it and earned another five. 17 Similarly, the one given two earned another two. 18 But the one given one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.
19 “After a long time, the master of those servants returned to settle accounts with them. 20 The one who had received five talents came forward bringing the other five and said, ‘Sir, you gave me five talents; here, I have made five more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Excellent! You are a good and trustworthy servant. You have been faithful with a small amount, so I will put you in charge of a large amount. Come and join in your master’s happiness!’ 22 Also the one who had received two came forward and said, ‘Sir, you gave me two talents; here, I have made two more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Excellent! you are a good and trustworthy servant. You have been faithful with a small amount, so I will put you in charge of a large amount. Come and join in your master’s happiness!’
24 “Now the one who had received one talent came forward and said, ‘I knew you were a hard man. You harvest where you didn’t plant and gather where you didn’t sow seed. 25 I was afraid, so I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here! Take what belongs to you!’ 26 ‘You wicked, lazy servant!’ said his master, ‘So you knew, did you, that I harvest where I haven’t planted? and that I gather where I didn’t sow seed? 27 Then you should have deposited my money with the bankers, so that when I returned, I would at least have gotten back interest with my capital! 28 Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has ten. 29 For everyone who has something will be given more, so that he will have more than enough; but from anyone who has nothing, even what he does have will be taken away. 30 As for this worthless servant, throw him out in the dark, where people will wail and grind their teeth!’
31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, accompanied by all the angels, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be assembled before him,
Pin, this thread isn't about building on the foundation. It's getting the foundation laid right. And that is only Jesus Christ, the Righteous. No other foundation stone can we, His body, place our feet solidly on.

That's the problem. Christians trying to add to the foundation, and this thread has most certainly been fruitful to those who hear and see this truth.

To build, we must be taking care that we build rightly...and that has to be another thread until all comes into the unity of this truth.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Well, you are responsible for what you read into what I say. You were scolding David saying HE should be concerned for his image as a believer in Christ, while you seemingly ignore those whose hypocrisy is glaring, those who are constantly focusing on the supposed sins of others while they pat themselves on the back, constantly saying works are a necessity but they need not do anything aside from resting in the grace of God. They will go on and on about how you must be sinless or you are not saved, while giving themselves permission to fail and fall into sin at times, and still be saved. You seem to count yourself among the hypocrites? I accused you of nothing. You did that yourself.
I truly was admonishing David to watch his Christian image. He is mocking and laughing and using words that are inappropriate of a Christian brother.

You responded by telling me to be concerned with myself and then accusing me of using Jesus to justify my hypocrisy. You said it, not me.

So tell me what you mean that I used Jesus to justify my hypocrisy? Did I actually use the words of Jesus straight from the bible to justify my hypocrisy? Is that a bad thing to use scripture straight out of the bible to support a doctrinal position?

Was I using Jesus's words like, "forgive a man his trespasses against you, or your God will not forgive your trespasses agains Him" to justify my hypocrisy? Jesus's words are plain and simple, they are not difficult to understand, until you try to reconcile them with the words of Paul, when he says "it is by grace we are saved, not of works least we boast".

Now it becomes difficult to reconcile the words of Jesus with the words of Paul, and the bible becomes a battleground.

Are you using the words of Paul to justify your hypocrisy? And ignoring the words of Jesus to forgive?
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Correction, the blood of lambs, or bulls Covered Sins, but JESUS BLOOD, Paid in Full for our sins.
And His blood purges us from the old man, to the new man created in Christ Jesus...Another nature. :)
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Again you mock, and call names. Not a good way to discuss the issue.

We 'workers' cannot do enough good works to become sinless perfectionists. We must believe in Jesus Christ and have faith in him and trust that he will sanctify us and finally justify our entrance into his Kingdom. We know that and you know that we know that. So why do you continue to say those mocking words?
You can know with assurance that we are sanctified by Jesus, and granted entrance into His Kingdom.

~1Co 1:28  God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
 

1Co 1:29  so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
 

1Co 1:30  And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 


1Co 1:31  so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord." 
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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The Gospel-->Faith alone by grace saves a man eternally, seals them by the Holy Spirit, justifies them before God and sanctifies them positionally in Christ forever.

Your gospel-->faith embellished with immersion and works, must be maintained and is losable

No power in your false gospel...read GALATIANS, Romans etc......
I would only like to comment on the concept of 'they are sealed by the HS of promise.
This sounds like once they are sealed, one is saved forever, no matter what.

Because you may think that you are sealed, therefore no matter what you do, God will never break this seal and you are in, no matter what, since you believed in Jesus. Let me show you how this seal can be broken:

Paul was talking to the Ephesians, right? He taught them his gospel and he wrote letters to them and they believed and had a good church at Ephesus. And those that believe were sealed by the HS of promise.

Now lets go to Revelations 2:1-7 and see what happened to the church at Ephesus:
Revelation 2 King James Version (KJV)

2 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

So how did that seal get broken? It is because they had fallen, and unless they repent and start doing the first works, I will come quickly and remove you from your place (in the KOG).

Where does repentence and removal have a place in your gospel?

Where does overcoming and enduring to the end have a place in your gospel?
 
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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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I did mention that I believe and have faith and trust Jesus, and I am saved. If I decide to keep the commandments of Jesus it is of little concern because I am saved. Is that how it works? If not, tell me where I am wrong?

><>.t.<><


You are certainly WRONG about what we BELIEVE. You are on a witch hunt, and there are no witches here. If you want to know what we Believe, just reread all of my posts again, with open ears this time.


John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] If you love Me, you will keep My commands."


That means that WE will WANT TO KEEP HIS COMMANDS.

IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE HAVE TO KEEP HIS COMMANDS TO BE SAVED.


1 John 2:4-6 (CSBBible)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The one who says, "I have come to know him," and yet doesn't keep his commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But whoever keeps his word, truly in him the love of God is made complete. This is how we know we are in him:
[SUP]6 [/SUP] The one who says he remains in him should walk just as he walked.


That means that WE are the ONES that WANT TO KEEP HIS COMMANDS, NOT AS AN ADD ON TO SALVATION, it is part of the NEW NATURE, when HE, the Holy Spirit, birthed our human spirit into ETERNAL LIFE. And when we fail, WE ARE THE ONES WHO GO BACK TO 1 John 1:9, and CONFESS IT.

That "COMING TO KNOW HIM" is a reference to being Born Again, and KNOWING IT.
 
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Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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I truly was admonishing David to watch his Christian image. He is mocking and laughing and using words that are inappropriate of a Christian brother.

You responded by telling me to be concerned with myself and then accusing me of using Jesus to justify my hypocrisy. You said it, not me.

So tell me what you mean that I used Jesus to justify my hypocrisy? Did I actually use the words of Jesus straight from the bible to justify my hypocrisy? Is that a bad thing to use scripture straight out of the bible to support a doctrinal position?

Was I using Jesus's words like, "forgive a man his trespasses against you, or your God will not forgive your trespasses agains Him" to justify my hypocrisy? Jesus's words are plain and simple, they are not difficult to understand, until you try to reconcile them with the words of Paul, when he says "it is by grace we are saved, not of works least we boast".

Now it becomes difficult to reconcile the words of Jesus with the words of Paul, and the bible becomes a battleground.

Are you using the words of Paul to justify your hypocrisy? And ignoring the words of Jesus to forgive?
My brother in Christ , may I just say to you , I love your simple heart , I have a simple heart that God has given me also , your words do touch me , regardless off what is going on in this thread , your love for our LORD shines...In Jesus name Amen...xox...
 
Dec 4, 2017
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My brother in Christ , may I just say to you , I love your simple heart , I have a simple heart that God has given me also , your words do touch me , regardless off what is going on in this thread , your love for our LORD shines...In Jesus name Amen...xox...
I didn't think of benhu as simple or even common. He has mighty friends in the Spirit.
To be honest I'm glad he is here to help.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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><>.t.<><


You are certainly WRONG about what we BELIEVE. You are on a witch hunt, and there are no witches here. If you want to know what we Believe, just reread all of my posts again, with open ears this time.


John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] If you love Me, you will keep My commands."


That means that WE will WANT TO KEEP HIS COMMANDS.

IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE HAVE TO KEEP HIS COMMANDS TO BE SAVED.


1 John 2:4-6 (CSBBible)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The one who says, "I have come to know him," and yet doesn't keep his commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But whoever keeps his word, truly in him the love of God is made complete. This is how we know we are in him:
[SUP]6 [/SUP] The one who says he remains in him should walk just as he walked.


That means that WE are the ONES that WANT TO KEEP HIS COMMANDS, NOT AS AN ADD ON TO SALVATION, it is part of the NEW NATURE, when HE, the Holy Spirit, birthed our human spirit into ETERNAL LIFE. And when we fail, WE ARE THE ONES WHO GO BACK TO 1 John 1:9, and CONFESS IT.

That "COMING TO KNOW HIM" is a reference to being Born Again, and KNOWING IT.
You are making my point. A person must 'want' to keep the commandments or that person wasn't really saved in the first place. So it easy to know the true Christian.

We do know that there will be some that use their Christianity for gain and popularity, and earthly power. These will come to Jesus and Jesus will not know them and declare their works were evil.

These are not those that 'want' to keep the commandments for the glory of God and for the building up of the KOG and to help the poor and the innocent, to relieve them of their torments, as Jesus taught.

So really no witch hunt, just asking.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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I didn't think of benhu as simple or even common. He has mighty friends in the Spirit.
To be honest I'm glad he is here to help.
I like his simpleness in the LORD , his gentle spirit, for God loves a gentle spirit...1 Peter 3:4 Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight...That is what [FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]attracts[/FONT][FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] me to Bben...xox...A same thing that attracts me to BillG , they both have a gentle spirit [/FONT]:)...xox...
 
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Pin, this thread isn't about building on the foundation. It's getting the foundation laid right. And that is only Jesus Christ, the Righteous. No other foundation stone can we, His body, place our feet solidly on.

That's the problem. Christians trying to add to the foundation, and this thread has most certainly been fruitful to those who hear and see this truth.

To build, we must be taking care that we build rightly...and that has to be another thread until all comes into the unity of this truth.
Step back for a moment and distance yourself, And listen to the Ruach haqodosh,

This thread is fruitless and there is no edification here.


Clarity,
Imagine for a moment what a visitor or outsider might see,read, perceive in this thread.
Then imagine a new believer walking into a congregation for the first time in their life.
And they walk in to witnesd a crowd arguing with one another in an inordinate fashion. Meaning non comprehensive


New believers thought.
"Hostile environment, no thanks, yeah I knew that Jesus guy was a lie"
 
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stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Step back for a moment and distance yourself, And listen to the Ruach haqodosh,

This thread is fruitless and there is no edification here.


Clarity,
Imagine for a moment what a visitor or outsider might see,read, perceive in this thread.
Then imagine a new believer walking into a congregation for the first time in their life.
And they walk in to witnesd a crowd arguing with one another.


New believers thought.
"Hostile environment, no thanks, yeah I knew that Jesus guy was a lie"
Just don't argue, but give truth...those who are seeking will find. :)