Not By Works

[benhur]

No., Because the Bible says no faith no eternal life. I would rather stick to what the Bible says, not what you say, because people can have works and STILL not have eternal life.

I understand that you have to have faith to have eternal life, seriously, do you think I don't read the scriptures. My problem is when I read the scriptures I also read that I must forgive all men their trespasses against me or God will not forgive my trespasses against Him.

IOW it seems like I can believe in Jesus Christ, and I can have all the faith in the world, but if I don't forgive men who trespass against me, my sins will not be forgiven, and if my sins are not forgiven, I will not be in heaven with God and Jesus. And I can show you 20 scriptures besides the forgiveness scripture.

Did Paul wipe away the importance of those scriptures and replace those scriptures with grace? Or is that a misinterpretation of grace?

Thats where your wrong. Not all who do morally good works are saved. Jesus said there will be people in that day who have many great works, yet he said he NEVER KNEW THEM, if works was proof of salvation, and they all are saved, then Jesus could not tell these people who did these works they were never saved,

Now we have a real problem. People believe whole heartedly in Jesus, and think they have faith abundantly, go out and do many mighty works, even prophecy in the name of Jesus, yet when it gets to the end, Jesus tells them he does not know them, and that they are evil.

You say, oh that's easy, they were never saved in the first place. Well, how comforting to know that I am going through the motions of being a good and faithful Christian, thinking I have faith in Jesus, only to find out my faith was fake and no good, and Jesus has rejected my faith and my works.
Is there something else at work, something that we are ignorant to, or how can we tell we have not the real faith, but a fake faith?

 

[LightLoveHope]

Let us get real.
The comparison between the self righteous pharisee and the tax collector is the comparison between
awareness of Gods holiness and our unworthiness.

What is blind is the desire by these free gracers to suggest by showing God calls us to live
a pure blameless life, that makes us hypocrites rather than acknowledgers of Gods holiness
and our calling. They sincerely believe God does not purify them, which is why they think
as sinners they are saved, rather than as sinners they condemn themselves in rebellion against
God.

For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.
1 Thess 4:7-8

What Paul is writing here, is if you resist the pure holy life, you are rejecting God and not man.
These foolish believers, somehow hold on to the notion God will forgive their sin which they refuse
to repent of or feel sorrow about, because they believe He died on the cross for them. But the
crass stupidity, is though He died on the cross for them, continuing to sin is not a denial of this
very belief. And He who can heal of the deepest wounds, rather than communing with Him and
working through the hurts and pain, they would rather ignore this and shut God out of their hearts,
as witnessed identifying with the sinful tax collector even when they have been forgiven and
redeemed.

So for them redemption is pointless and does nothing, other than cover their lives with Jesus, so
God does not notice they have not changed at all.

 

[LightLoveHope]

What would it be like to be in a free gracer church and know Gods holiness?

It would be like you were in hell with a bunch of demons condemning you as
a hypocrite to experience Gods life flowing through you, because only hypocrites
believe it is possible, so you must be deluded to think you actually are experiencing
it.

Now God encourages us to be open, to shine like a light, to love, to be at peace, not
judgmental, caring, serving and helpful. So you would hope your brothers and sisters
in Christ would know the growing grace and glory they are walking in, except this would
be cursed like the "legalists" that are condemned for their hypocrisy.

One would have to leave such a fellowship, because it would become obvious the hatred
that was preached constantly against the pharisee teachers ( true believers in the gospel).
And if one testified as to the victory Christ was bringing one into and the revelation of scripture
the call would be liar, deceiver, manipulator. Such divides will become more obvious, because
you cannot condemn followers of Jesus and then have them in ones midst.

So know these people and their fruit and what such fellowships will encourage in their midst.

 

[gb9]

What would it be like to be in a free gracer church and know Gods holiness?

It would be like you were in hell with a bunch of demons condemning you as
a hypocrite to experience Gods life flowing through you, because only hypocrites
believe it is possible, so you must be deluded to think you actually are experiencing
it.

Now God encourages us to be open, to shine like a light, to love, to be at peace, not
judgmental, caring, serving and helpful. So you would hope your brothers and sisters
in Christ would know the growing grace and glory they are walking in, except this would
be cursed like the "legalists" that are condemned for their hypocrisy.

One would have to leave such a fellowship, because it would become obvious the hatred
that was preached constantly against the pharisee teachers ( true believers in the gospel).
And if one testified as to the victory Christ was bringing one into and the revelation of scripture
the call would be liar, deceiver, manipulator. Such divides will become more obvious, because
you cannot condemn followers of Jesus and then have them in ones midst.

So know these people and their fruit and what such fellowships will encourage in their midst.

greek word for grace-charis- first definition - a GIFT or blessing brought to man by Jesus.

if you have to earn or pay for something, it is not a gift. a gift is something another does for you. that makes gifts free. so ity seems their was a lot of free gracer talk in the N.T.

in one paragraph, you say God does not want us to judge, then in the others, you judge what you think it would be like to be in a grace - based church. wow.

 

[gb9]

What would it be like to be in a free gracer church and know Gods holiness?

It would be like you were in hell with a bunch of demons condemning you as
a hypocrite to experience Gods life flowing through you, because only hypocrites
believe it is possible, so you must be deluded to think you actually are experiencing
it.

Now God encourages us to be open, to shine like a light, to love, to be at peace, not
judgmental, caring, serving and helpful. So you would hope your brothers and sisters
in Christ would know the growing grace and glory they are walking in, except this would
be cursed like the "legalists" that are condemned for their hypocrisy.

One would have to leave such a fellowship, because it would become obvious the hatred
that was preached constantly against the pharisee teachers ( true believers in the gospel).
And if one testified as to the victory Christ was bringing one into and the revelation of scripture
the call would be liar, deceiver, manipulator. Such divides will become more obvious, because
you cannot condemn followers of Jesus and then have them in ones midst.

So know these people and their fruit and what such fellowships will encourage in their midst.

I hear often at my church young people coming to Christ, with stories about stuff they have done in the past making them feel unworthy of God's forgiveness. so, lets see, telling someone who already feels unworthy to be forgiven that grace is not free, they have to qualify, how do you think that is going to make them feel?


and you see, us free garcers care about other people. we want them to come to Christ, by however they get there.

I'm sure in your church, ya'll just tell each other how holy and righteous you are, how others should be like you ( that is what you say here ), but i'll take a church that understands grace and forgiveness is a gift to be received, not a favor to earn.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I understand that you have to have faith to have eternal life, seriously, do you think I don't read the scriptures. My problem is when I read the scriptures I also read that I must forgive all men their trespasses against me or God will not forgive my trespasses against Him.

IOW it seems like I can believe in Jesus Christ, and I can have all the faith in the world, but if I don't forgive men who trespass against me, my sins will not be forgiven, and if my sins are not forgiven, I will not be in heaven with God and Jesus. And I can show you 20 scriptures besides the forgiveness scripture.

Did Paul wipe away the importance of those scriptures and replace those scriptures with grace? Or is that a misinterpretation of grace?

Do you think God holds the fact that a person for some reason can nto find it in his heasrt to forgive someone against him MORE than a person who commits other types of sins? I do not. I think paul is talkign abotu a state of mind, about people who never forgive anyone, who are proud, who would take their supposed brother to court, and try to take him for everything they have, these same people would also show a lack of love in other areas, And that is the point Paul is trying to make.

If you think I can earn salvation by making sure I forgive my brother or sister 100 % of the time, I have serious issues with that

Did you have a response to those who have works yet have no faith?

Now we have a real problem. People believe whole heartedly in Jesus, and think they have faith abundantly, go out and do many mighty works, even prophecy in the name of Jesus, yet when it gets to the end, Jesus tells them he does not know them, and that they are evil.

Who said they believe wholeheartedly in Jesus? The text does not say that? They may think they believe wholeheartedly, but do they really?

Your right, we have a problem, The problem is people are not focused on Christ, They may say they believe, But God knows our true heart. Saying or claiming you believe does nto make it a reality.

You say, oh that's easy, they were never saved in the first place. Well, how comforting to know that I am going through the motions of being a good and faithful Christian, thinking I have faith in Jesus, only to find out my faith was fake and no good, and Jesus has rejected my faith and my works.

Well no, I would not say they were never saved, JESUS DID

“Then I will say to them, Depart from me, FOR I NEVER KNEW YOU”

Can you honestly say to yourself that if God never knew them intimately, they they were actually saved at one time? I can’t. If God said he never knew them, then I take him at his word.

He also told them they practiced sin, (unrighteousness) which gives us a twofold problem.

1. It says they did all these works, how can these works be sin?
2. John said in his epislte a child of God can not practice sin, so if they were practicing sin, how could they have ever been a child of God

Is there something else at work, something that we are ignorant to, or how can we tell we have not the real faith, but a fake faith?

What is your faith in? I think that is how you can tell. Do you believe in the promises of God? Do you trust him with your verty life? are you going around boasting of your work, judging other people for sin and being a modern day pharisee? Are you doing things expecting NOTHIN in return? Is you focus for th emost part other people? Or is yoru focus usually on yourself?

Do we see affliction as momentary? Or do we see aflliction and flee. Do we see works as an outpouring of love, or do we see them as a means to an end (salvation)

I think we can know..

What I can not know., is I can not look at a person, and see a person who does what i consider mighty things for God. And know for sure he is saved. Whcih was the point I was tryign to make earlier, I can do works, yet not have an ounce of faith in the gospel, What good are my works then?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I hear often at my church young people coming to Christ, with stories about stuff they have done in the past making them feel unworthy of God's forgiveness. so, lets see, telling someone who already feels unworthy to be forgiven that grace is not free, they have to qualify, how do you think that is going to make them feel?


and you see, us free garcers care about other people. we want them to come to Christ, by however they get there.

I'm sure in your church, ya'll just tell each other how holy and righteous you are, how others should be like you ( that is what you say here ), but i'll take a church that understands grace and forgiveness is a gift to be received, not a favor to earn.

God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of a sound mind, and a spirit of adoption, whereby we can go to God and cry out Abba (daddy)

these people do not know who God is, they think he is a dictator who si going to beat you into submission or kick you out. He has no love..

I do not know that God.

 

[dcontroversal]

I believe the fig tree was a symbol of the Jewish system of religion and temple/animal sacrifice. If you recall, Jesus cursed the fig tree as He was approaching Jerusalem during what is referred to as Holy Week, coming up to His resurrection. He was signaling that their system (under the law) bore no fruit, and that a new way was to be ushered in, what we know as the new covenant, instituted with the shedding of His righteous blood for the forgiveness of sins.

Amen...when the Lawyers, Pharisees and workers for figure out that the words and ministry of Jesus must be viewed in light of the fact that he was born, lived and died UNDER THE LAW which ratified the New Covenant.....then their eyes will begin to be opened

 

[Magenta]

This interpretation unfortunately has God judging His own law and institutions.
This is not Gods way or His meaning.

God does judge the law to be insufficient to attain salvation.
Unless you want to discredit all the Scriptures that state otherwise?
I am not surprised you do not understand this.

It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Hebrews 10:4

“Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.”Acts 13:38-39

“Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.”Galatians 3:25-25

“To Him give all the prophets witness, that through His name
whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins.” Acts 10:43
​

 

[BillG]

What would it be like to be in a free gracer church and know Gods holiness?

It would be like you were in hell with a bunch of demons condemning you as
a hypocrite to experience Gods life flowing through you, because only hypocrites
believe it is possible, so you must be deluded to think you actually are experiencing
it.

Now God encourages us to be open, to shine like a light, to love, to be at peace, not
judgmental, caring, serving and helpful. So you would hope your brothers and sisters
in Christ would know the growing grace and glory they are walking in, except this would
be cursed like the "legalists" that are condemned for their hypocrisy.

One would have to leave such a fellowship, because it would become obvious the hatred
that was preached constantly against the pharisee teachers ( true believers in the gospel).
And if one testified as to the victory Christ was bringing one into and the revelation of scripture
the call would be liar, deceiver, manipulator. Such divides will become more obvious, because
you cannot condemn followers of Jesus and then have them in ones midst.

So know these people and their fruit and what such fellowships will encourage in their midst.

I suppose that depends on what a free gracer is and what a person believes that grace is free.

Maybe you should use the term "greasy gracer" one who believes that we can sin all we want and do not have to obedient.

That's different from the one who believes that grace is free, and does not want to sin, and seeks obedience in Jesus.

See the difference?

Greasy gracer has no intention to walk in Gods holiness, free gracer does.

Greasy gracer does not have Jesus in then, free gracer does.

Those who aspire to be like Jesus are not legalists.

Those who think their works will save them are legalists.

Those who push works to save us are legalists.

I myself believe grace is free.
I myself would never say grace is a license to sin.
I myself would would say that it's Gods grace that sets us free, to want to walk like him.
That's not legalism, that's freedom to be the kids he wants us to be.

Any people on here who LLH has accused as free gracers, are you?
Are you a greasy gracer or a person who believes in free grace?

Seems to me he believes those who believe in free grace are greasy gracers.

Oh well I'm a free gracer but I'm not a greasy one. Unless of course I haven't bathed.
Then I would be very greasy and smelly.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

I suppose that depends on what a free gracer is and what a person believes that grace is free.

Maybe you should use the term "greasy gracer" one who believes that we can sin all we want and do not have to obedient.

That's different from the one who believes that grace is free, and does not want to sin, and seeks obedience in Jesus.

See the difference?

Greasy gracer has no intention to walk in Gods holiness, free gracer does.

Greasy gracer does not have Jesus in then, free gracer does.

Those who aspire to be like Jesus are not legalists.

Those who think their works will save them are legalists.

Those who push works to save us are legalists.

I myself believe grace is free.
I myself would never say grace is a license to sin.
I myself would would say that it's Gods grace that sets us free, to want to walk like him.
That's not legalism, that's freedom to be the kids he wants us to be.

Any people on here who LLH has accused as free gracers, are you?
Are you a greasy gracer or a person who believes in free grace?

Seems to me he believes those who believe in free grace are greasy gracers.

Oh well I'm a free gracer but I'm not a greasy one. Unless of course I haven't bathed.
Then I would be very greasy and smelly.

well said brother

 

[MichaelOwen]

I suppose that depends on what a free gracer is and what a person believes that grace is free.

Maybe you should use the term "greasy gracer" one who believes that we can sin all we want and do not have to obedient.

That's different from the one who believes that grace is free, and does not want to sin, and seeks obedience in Jesus.

See the difference?

Greasy gracer has no intention to walk in Gods holiness, free gracer does.

Greasy gracer does not have Jesus in then, free gracer does.

Those who aspire to be like Jesus are not legalists.

Those who think their works will save them are legalists.

Those who push works to save us are legalists.

I myself believe grace is free.
I myself would never say grace is a license to sin.
I myself would would say that it's Gods grace that sets us free, to want to walk like him.
That's not legalism, that's freedom to be the kids he wants us to be.

Any people on here who LLH has accused as free gracers, are you?
Are you a greasy gracer or a person who believes in free grace?

Seems to me he believes those who believe in free grace are greasy gracers.

Oh well I'm a free gracer but I'm not a greasy one. Unless of course I haven't bathed.
Then I would be very greasy and smelly.

I believe the grace that Jesus showed to me was free. When He came to Earth to die for me on that cross, I didn't do anything to earn that, I sure didn't deserve it. It's a gift that is given to us by our Lord, and it's our decision whether to reject the gift, or accept it. Doesn't mean we will be perfect, but we weren't perfect to receive such a blessed gift to start with.

 

[BillG]

I believe the grace that Jesus showed to me was free. When He came to Earth to die for me on that cross, I didn't do anything to earn that, I sure didn't deserve it. It's a gift that is given to us by our Lord, and it's our decision whether to reject the gift, or accept it. Doesn't mean we will be perfect, but we weren't perfect to receive such a blessed gift to start with.

None of us deserved it, none of can earn it.
But those who accept it will realise that we will not be perfect but we will seek Jesus and his ways.
When we get it wrong we fess up and say "Jesus help me"

Brother you mentioned on another thread about posting your testimony, but was worried people may think less of you.

Have you posted it yet. I've been looking for it but not seen it.
I'm looking forward to hearing it.

 

[MichaelOwen]

None of us deserved it, none of can earn it.
But those who accept it will realise that we will not be perfect but we will seek Jesus and his ways.
When we get it wrong we fess up and say "Jesus help me"

Brother you mentioned on another thread about posting your testimony, but was worried people may think less of you.

Have you posted it yet. I've been looking for it but not seen it.
I'm looking forward to hearing it.

I have my friend, it's under Testimonies, named My Testimony, it's kind of lengthy, but I put it into paragraphs as best I could

 

[BillG]

I have my friend, it's under Testimonies, named My Testimony, it's kind of lengthy, but I put it into paragraphs as best I could

I will read it.
Not tonight as it's bedtime for me.
Will read it tomorrow.

God bless you my friend and brother in Christ

 

[benhur]

Do you think God holds the fact that a person for some reason can nto find it in his heasrt to forgive someone against him MORE than a person who commits other types of sins? I do not.

That is the difference between you and me and your theology and my theology. When Jesus says forgive or my Father will not forgive you, (Matthew 6:15) I take that seriously. Any words of Jesus I take seriously. I would never read the words of Jesus and then rationalize that, Do you think God holds the fact that a person..... I do not. I believe you will have to stand before Jesus and let him know why you did not believe his words.
Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 that we are the temple of God and if any man defiles that temple, God will destroy him.
I take those words as seriously as I take, by grace are we saved not of works lest we boast, because they are both in the bible.

IOW I have incorporated the grace words of Paul, and words of Jesus in the bible into my theology. I don't think it is wise to say "I do not" to Jesus, as you have said. Don't be calling me a liar and a slanderer. Those are your own words in the above quote.

That is why I say, you seem to be willing to ignore all but the grace words of Paul. I do not mean to slander you, but that is how it comes across. The scriptures tell me that there is more to salvation than believing and having faith.
For instance:
1 Corinthians 13:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

So Paul, in this scripture says that charity is greater than faith. How can he do that? If I told you that you would call me a blasphemer, or worse.

So bottom line, my theology incorporates all the words of the bible.

 

[benhur]

Amen.....one true gospel message not two, three or fifty....Jesus plus faith by grace is the message.....anything added....especially works by men = false gospel

How bout Jesus plus faith, hope, and charity (charity being greater than faith) by grace is the message? See 1 Corinthians 13:13

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is the difference between you and me and your theology and my theology. When Jesus says forgive or my Father will not forgive you, (Matthew 6:15) I take that seriously. Any words of Jesus I take seriously. I would never read the words of Jesus and then rationalize that, Do you think God holds the fact that a person..... I do not. I believe you will have to stand before Jesus and let him know why you did not believe his words.
Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 that we are the temple of God and if any man defiles that temple, God will destroy him.
I take those words as seriously as I take, by grace are we saved not of works lest we boast, because they are both in the bible.

IOW I have incorporated the grace words of Paul, and words of Jesus in the bible into my theology. I don't think it is wise to say "I do not" to Jesus, as you have said. Don't be calling me a liar and a slanderer. Those are your own words in the above quote.

That is why I say, you seem to be willing to ignore all but the grace words of Paul. I do not mean to slander you, but that is how it comes across. The scriptures tell me that there is more to salvation than believing and having faith.
For instance:
1 Corinthians 13:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

So Paul, in this scripture says that charity is greater than faith. How can he do that? If I told you that you would call me a blasphemer, or worse.

So bottom line, my theology incorporates all the words of the bible.

the difference between your theology and mins is prety simple.

I believe like the tax collector. He went home justified because he repented. And out of his bankrupt heart called out to God, because he knew he was without hope (he could not even look up to heaven he was so unworthy)

He did what jesus said in the sermon on the mount, he became poor in spirit (literally bankrupt or devoid of all hope) and because of it, he was blessed.

You believe like the religious person. He went home not justified because he refused to repent, and his faith was in his works.

 

[benhur]

lets see.

The baptism of God

The baptism of our pastor.

yeah, Not to hard to figure out. Who are you trusting, God or man? That will give you the answer.

God got water baptized by a man. I am trusting God and man, like God did.

 

[ljs]

Amen...when the Lawyers, Pharisees and workers for figure out that the words and ministry of Jesus must be viewed in light of the fact that he was born, lived and died UNDER THE LAW which ratified the New Covenant.....then their eyes will begin to be opened

Amen , and that is at the core of alot of the confusion , they just dont get it !!