Not By Works

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Jan 25, 2018
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Dude get off your high horse, and stop lieing about what people believe. I am so sick of you people who think you can come in here and lie about other people. Because they happen to disagree with you.

I have NO aversion to good works in the christian life period. What your doing is telling people a lie because you do not want to listen to anyone

I have an aversion to trying to go to God on judgement day and when he asks why he should let me in, I tell him because of my hard work.

Maybe you are secure in telling God he should let you in because of your hard work (the pharisee) But I will go like the tax collector. I will be on my knees, Because I KNOW I am unworthy for anything God may give me, in this life or the next.
What does the above tell me? That still this believer has not seen Christ.
There is no question of us being good enough. If you see the cross, and
Jesus and how He works, and He has shown you how little one does in comparison,
our works are merely an offering of praise.

This is not a doctrine, or belief system, it is a reality in our hearts.
It is about sorrow, pain, suffering, loss, failure, repentance, confession and faith.

Now contributors share to the limit of their own walk. Paul put it like this

Do everything without complaining or arguing,
so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe
as you hold out the word of life--in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing.
Philippians 2:14-15

I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
Philippians 3:10-14


We are working to walk in the way of Jesus, to follow and obey, to have the life
He has planted within and to run with abandon.

Paul and Silas in prison, what did they do?

They brought them before the magistrates and said, "These men are Jews, and are throwing our city into an uproar
by advocating customs unlawful for us Romans to accept or practice."
The crowd joined in the attack against Paul and Silas, and the magistrates ordered them to be stripped and beaten.
After they had been severely flogged, they were thrown into prison, and the jailer was commanded to guard them carefully.
Upon receiving such orders, he put them in the inner cell and fastened their feet in the stocks.
About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the other prisoners were listening to them.
Acts 16:20-25

This is the power of Gods Holy Spirit in men of power and resurrection. Humble vessels, accepting
the suffering given to them by man, and lifting up Gods Holy name in praise and thanks, Praise the Lord.
 
Jan 25, 2018
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Eternal life => a pure heart.

Paul wanted believers to be presented to Christ as

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight,
so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ,
filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ--to the glory and praise of God.
Philippians 1:9-12

Do everything without complaining or arguing,
so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe
as you hold out the word of life--in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing.
Philippians 2:14-15

So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.
2 Peter 3:14
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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eternal life= belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Mobiosity

Junior Member
Mar 3, 2018
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Our works come from a gratefulness for what God has done for us. It is to share His love with others, not to achieve anything.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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Our works come from a gratefulness for what God has done for us. It is to share His love with others, not to achieve anything.
Amen.

The "works" people love to call what we believe a "cheap gospel" or "cheap grace", yet actually it is they who make salvation cheap. The Jesus they advocate is one whose blood wasn't enough to blot out every sin. That's why it's now "up to them" to work to keep their salvation valid.

They love to heap guilt and condemnation on us because we don't live up to their standards of holiness - even though they themselves don't live up to those standards. If we don't adhere to their model of works, they condemn us as unsaved.
They have such a twisted idea of justification, they have no concept of what the Judgment Seat of Christ, treasures in heaven, and rewards are really about.

Even though they give lip-service to Jesus. to them, works are the means, and the proof, of salvation.

They love to tell us works are needed, but can't tell you just how many. They give vague answers about a "pattern" of behavior, or a "lifestyle" - but if such a pattern is different for everyone, then God is judging on a sliding scale and would be blatantly unfair. If they deny that, it would mean there is a definite formula, but have no answer as to what it precisely is.

They judge by appearance, and would be completely fooled by those such as the lost ones in Matthew 7:22 who could even prophesy, cast out demons, and perform many other miracles.

They are obsessed with sin and seem unable to grasp the fact that the sin issue was dealt with over 2,000 years ago. Christians have no sins to pay for - none attributed to us. We are as sinless, holy, righteous, and blameless as Jesus is.

And we will remain so, as long as Jesus lives.
 
Jun 26, 2014
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I just wanted to throw these two things out there:

First of all, I've seen several post make this statement: "When you get to heaven and God asks, "Why should I let you in...." " I just want you to know, He is not going to ask you why he should let you in. When you get to the Judgement seat, he already knows whether you are gettin in or not! lol

Secondly, I haven't seen anyone deal with this scripture:

Revelation 20:13 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Would someone who doesn't believe in doing anything to be saved please explain how these "works" play into judgement since they aren't necessary? Please keep in mind that the context of this scripture is not rewards for those who are saved. It is a determination of whether or not these people get into heaven or go to hell.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I just wanted to throw these two things out there:

First of all, I've seen several post make this statement: "When you get to heaven and God asks, "Why should I let you in...." " I just want you to know, He is not going to ask you why he should let you in. When you get to the Judgement seat, he already knows whether you are gettin in or not! lol

Secondly, I haven't seen anyone deal with this scripture:

Revelation 20:13 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Would someone who doesn't believe in doing anything to be saved please explain how these "works" play into judgement since they aren't necessary? Please keep in mind that the context of this scripture is not rewards for those who are saved. It is a determination of whether or not these people get into heaven or go to hell.
Who will be delivered to Christ? THE DEAD.

Who will be resurrected BY CHRIST? THE LIVING (those born again)

Children of God will NOT partake of the great white throne judgment, we will participate in the BEMA set judgement of 1 cor 3, where our works are tried and we will recieve reward, or see our reward burtn, but even then, we will be saved even though as through fire.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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I just wanted to throw these two things out there:

First of all, I've seen several post make this statement: "When you get to heaven and God asks, "Why should I let you in...." " I just want you to know, He is not going to ask you why he should let you in. When you get to the Judgement seat, he already knows whether you are gettin in or not! lol

Secondly, I haven't seen anyone deal with this scripture:

Revelation 20:13 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Would someone who doesn't believe in doing anything to be saved please explain how these "works" play into judgement since they aren't necessary? Please keep in mind that the context of this scripture is not rewards for those who are saved. It is a determination of whether or not these people get into heaven or go to hell.
The dead do not have works of righteousness accounted to them through faith, since they have no faith, and they will be judged by their works, which are as filthy rags without the covering of the blood of Jesus. Our works will be judged, but there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. If our works are unacceptable, they will be burned up, but we will not lose salvation.

See 1 Cor 3:11-15


For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.​
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Tennessee
Secondly, I haven't seen anyone deal with this scripture:

Revelation 20:13 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

.
This entire thread is discussing the topic of works.
 
Jan 25, 2018
673
10
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Eternal life => a pure heart.

Paul wanted believers to be presented to Christ as

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight,
so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ,
filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ--to the glory and praise of God.
Philippians 1:9-12

Do everything without complaining or arguing,
so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe
as you hold out the word of life--in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing.
Philippians 2:14-15

So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.
2 Peter 3:14
To the free gracers, if you cannot answer Pauls obvious aspirations for believers
how can you claim to follow the gospel Paul preached, or Peter or Jesus and ignore
these principles.

Make every effort, does not sound like, have faith is Christ and do not care about
defiling behavior, rather the opposite. Now to be honest, to a legalist the idea
defining behavior matters causes an OCD attack because they went miles too
far and missed love and grace altogether. Defiling behaviour is quite specific,
and obvious, but they want a mind that never thinks of evil things, or proposes
behavior that is evil. But we know good and evil, and knowing evil means we
think about it, to know it. But it does not defile us if we choose not to dwell
on it and to do good uplifting things and dwell on good things like prayer, praise
and love.

The fact they cannot answer these points shows where their hearts are and
how defiled they constantly dwell in and refuse to resolve unforgiveness, envy,
jealousy, greed, self indulgence, gluttony, selfish ambition, anger, hatred, bitterness.

It is these things that cause our failure and sinful behavior, but praise the Lord
Jesus delivers us from them through repentance confession and faith.
 
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Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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So you are going to be judge jury and executioner? Are you her descipler? Are you her pastor? What gives you the right to judge anyone?
Avoiding the issue raised in the great commission.

Mathew 28:16 to 20 (great commission) AMPC (Amplified Classic)

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed and made appointment with them.
17 And when they saw Him, they fell down and worshiped Him; but some doubted.
18 Jesus approached and, breaking the silence, said to them, All authority (all power of rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
19 Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 Teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days (perpetually, uniformly, and on every occasion), to the [very] close and consummation of the age. Amen (so let it be).
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Of course baptism brings 2 issues.
1. Is baptism required for salvation?
2. What mode of baptism is acceptable?
There are three modes (or methods) of water baptism used in Christian churches today: immersion (in which the person is completely submerged), affusion (that is, pouring), and aspersion (sprinkling).

Both issues are controversial. Different denominations have varied views on the subject. From required and immersion only to might not be required but stands for publicly proclaiming the persons belief in Jesus and mode doesn't matter.
 
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benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Yet keeping his commands is not why we are saved. If one says it is, they are teaching law. And thats the problem. Because they do not understand law. If they did understand law. They would never claim obedience is required to be saved, because they would KNOW and UNDERSTAND no amount of obedience will ever put us over the standard required by God. And then they will truly understand the cross.
So God has a standard? I agree. So are you saying that if we believe in Jesus and the message of the cross, that we do not have to be obedient to the commandments of God because the cross covers us. We do nothing, and the cross covers us. In fact we sin, but the cross covers us. We never have to repent of our sins and try to move forward because the cross covers us. So God says: only believe on Jesus and I will lift you over the standard because of the cross.

My message is that we believe in Jesus and by faith we obey the commandments of God and live a life that is full of good works, and of course you can never have enough good works to reach the standard that God has set, but that is where we have trust that Jesus will make up our shortfall and by the cross will finally lift us up over the standard and to eternal life.

Your theology seems to focus on the cross does everything, and we do not have to obey or live the commandments, or repent, or even be baptized. We don't have to have zeal, or endure to the end or anything. These are all prominent words in the bible that it seems like you are ignoring because you believe the cross has done away with them.

For instance, why should I repent of my sins, the cross has me covered? But yet the bible is full of the verbiage to repent. I understand that sometimes Jesus and the apostles are talking to persons who are not Christians, but let me give you this example in the scriptures:
Revelation 2:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.


Explain to me why Jesus was telling the believers of Ephesus that they needed to repent, if the cross covered them, why threaten them that their candlestick will be removed out of his place except they repent? Kind of confusing, don't you think?


You talk with authority about the law? Do you understand the law of Christ?

Galatians 6:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.


The law of Christ is not the same as the law of Moses. The law of Christ supercedes the law of Moses. So tell me:
1) what do you know of the law of Christ?
2) must we fulfil the law of Christ in order to be saved?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
So God has a standard? I agree.
Yes he did

Gal 3: [SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

Have you met this standard? Can you meet this standard?

So are you saying that if we believe in Jesus and the message of the cross, that we do not have to be obedient to the commandments of God because the cross covers us. We do nothing, and the cross covers us. In fact we sin, but the cross covers us. We never have to repent of our sins and try to move forward because the cross covers us. So God says: only believe on Jesus and I will lift you over the standard because of the cross.
There you go again, I refuse from this point to respond to continued nonsense such as this, It is not true (I did not say this) and I never have.

can you answer the first question? Can you or have you lived up to Gods standard? Lets start here, then maybe we can move forward with our discussions.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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It is easy.

1. Paul wrote to people ADDING works to the gospel of grace, In his argument, he showed the truth. Abraham was saved before he did one work. He was saved by his faith, IF he was saved by his works, he would be able to boast. Because he EARNED his salvation.

2. James spoke to people who CLAIMED to have faith (He never said they had faith) He called them hearers of the word only, not doers. He told them to test their faith. If YOU CLAIM TO HAVE FAITH but you have not the works that ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE SAVED have/. How can you say your faiht will save you (you may believe, but even demons believe, what good did it do them)

If you claim to have faith but have NO WORKS (zero Zip Nada) Your faith is dead. Are you saved? No. Have you ever been saved? No. Will you be saved if you continue to just believe, and not repent and come to faith? No!

ie. Paul spoke to people like you. Who wants to add works to the gospel

James spoke to people who think they can say a sinners prayer and they are saved, and can continue to live however they wish (Jude called them out as turning the grace of God to licentiousness)

Bot legalism, and liscentiousness are evil and false gospels not given by God. Both will keep people from heaven, both will lead people directly to hell.

SINCE one was arguing against one type. And the other was arguing against the other type. They APPEAR to be saying different things, when in reality, they do not.

Paul said in Eph 2: 8-10 that those saved by GRACE through FAITH apart from works, WILL do the works they were created to do.


Again, this post echos your post #57325, and I agree. No works or little works = never saved. Works = saved. If you believe in Jesus and the HG has immersed you into the body of Christ you will be saved and by faith, you will do good works. If you do not good works, then we know you have little or no fatih, and were never saved in the beginning, and you will not enter into the KOG. We agree.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Salvation by grace alone or by grace plus works is a heated subject that has been carried on through the centuries. All Christians are on assignment to fulfill the "Great Commission", there is no acceptable reason to sit at home while the world around us passes away. It is everyone's responsibility let their light shine and preach the wonderful Good News, that Jesus died for our sins and He brings eternal life to all who believe and eternal hell for anyone who rejects the Savior. Repent and believe the Good News and you will be saved.

Quote:

"Being a Christian means following an invitation. Being a disciple means forsaking all. To confuse these two aspects of the Christian life is to confound the grace of God and the works of man, to ignore the difference between salvation and sanctification. The gospel of grace is Scriptural. The Gospel that adds the works of man to salvation is a counterfeit Gospel."
Written by: Manfred Kober
 
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