Not By Works

[benhur]

Our eternal salvation cannot be earned, however believe in the Lord Jesus and His sacrifice for our sins and you will be saved. Believe in God's Son "plus" keeping the law is a false gospel. Even a child can understand saved by grace and not by works. If you are proclaiming a gospel of grace plus works you have fallen from grace. You are teaching a false gospel and need to repent.

John3:16-18 ​- True Gospel
16) For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17) For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Is this saying a false doctrine: Believe in God's son, plus love God and keep his commandments?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Good scritpure. Now reconcile this scripture with the above, and we will be closer together.
James 2:21-24 King James Version (KJV)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

By the way, Can you reconcile the two passages which appear to clearly contradict each other? (Without using the law as an excuse, the law was not in context of Romans 4.)

 

[TruthTalk]

Is this saying a false doctrine: Believe in God's son, plus love God and keep his commandments?

So you cannot understand the difference between God's (free) gift of eternal salvation and our daily walk. "Freely freely you have received, freely freely give.", as the gospel song implies you cannot earn your eternal salvation but of course you will find a way.

 

[benhur]

This is what I posted earlier in this thread. Are YOU going to fully trust in Jesus and HIS FULFILLMENT of the Law, or is YOUR righteousness going to EXCEED that of the Pharisees?

I believe it is key to understanding the sermon on the Mount:

This is the ABSOLUTE key to what lies at the heart of this thread.

Jesus offers 2 ways in Matthew 5 to get to the Kingdom of Heaven.

The 1st is by YOUR righteousness EXCEEDING the righteousness of the Pharisees. We tend to see the Pharisees as bad guys. The truth is that many EARNESTLY attempted with GREAT zeal to keep ALL the Law. NOBODY ever got closer to keeping ALL the Law than them. They were PROFESSIONAL Law keepers!

Jesus is saying that you must EXCEED how they kept the Law, then He goes to GREAT lengths to show the impossibility of keeping ALL the Law, by saying that mere thought, like momentary anger equating to murder, or a glance with desire as adultery. And If you fail, then you better pluck out your eye or cut off your arm. That is option ONE to attain eternal life. Living a perfect, sinless life.

Option 2 is this:Matthew 5:Christ Fulfills the Law17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to FULFILL.

I believe Jesus uses this juxtaposition of the "2" ways to Salvation several others times in Scripture.
Notably here:
Luke 18:9-14 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 Also He spoke this parable to some who TRUSTED IN THEMSELVES that THEY were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

And again with the rich young ruler who claimed to have followed ALL the Law since childhood.

You CANNOT fill a cup that is already full. So many people THINK they have the answer. They cannot be born again til their cup is emptied out. THEN the LORD can fill their cups!

How does Matthew 5:14-15 fit into your theology?

 

[TruthTalk]

If you fall below an acceptable performance level and coming close to losing your salvation this salvation meter is guaranteed to send you a signal so that you can get back on track.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you fall below an acceptable performance level and coming close to losing your salvation this salvation meter is guaranteed to send you a signal so that you can get back on track.

If your really afraid of not making it, You can become catholic. At least they have purgatory. Or become Islam. And join the holy war and commit suicide for god while taken out the infidelity. And you will get an automatic in.

 

[benhur]

If he said it, It is there.

Where does his death have a place in your theology?

Please do not insult me to my core.

 

[benhur]

?? Did you not read. I said it in my post. In fact I highlighted the words. John told us why Jesus came, and why he had to be baptised. Please go and read again.

I read it but did not read why, so I am just asking you to put it in your own words. Thanks, if you do not want to then ignore this post.

 

[benhur]

So you are going to be judge jury and executioner? Are you her descipler? Are you her pastor? What gives you the right to judge anyone?

I am none of these that you accuse me of.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Please do not insult me to my core.

so it is ok for you to insult us. But not ok for us to ask you a question?

Can you answer? Where does the cross fit in your theology?

 

[joefizz]

God saves you the moment you have faith.

Those who have faith in God to save them eternally will also have faith in minor things, and actually do works.

What part of titus 3: 5 do you not understand?

NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but BY HIS MERCY HEW SAVED US!

is it really that hard?

Perhaps the toughest thing to accept.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I read it but did not read why, so I am just asking you to put it in your own words. Thanks, if you do not want to then ignore this post.

John 1: 29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ 31 I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.”32 And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”

Its not hard.

 

[benhur]

Please do tell. I would love to hear how you know.

I know because God told me if I call out to him, he will baptise me with the spirit. And I do nto think God is a liar. I placed my faiht in HIM based on the CROSS.

You place your faith in some pastor to immerse you in water. So please do tell. How you recieved the baptism of the spirit.

ps. Have you ever answered my question about eph, where Paul said there was ONE BAPTISM??

I have been in many situations as I was thinking of my Lord Jesus Christ and the HS immersed me and witnessed that Jesus is the Son of God and is our Savior.

I do not place my faith in water baptism. I place my faith in Jesus Christ first and foremost. Then I also have faith enough to do what he has commanded us to do. One of those things is to go where there is enough water and be water baptized by immersion. I have faith in Jesus so I do what he asks.

There are many other good works that he asks us to do too, which I believe you completely ignore because you have chosen to follow a few sentences in the bible that Paul made about grace and not of works. The works that Paul was talking about were the works of the Law of Moses. He was not talking about good works associated with the Law of Christ represented by the NT.

Yes I have answered your question twice, but here is the 3rd time. The one baptism that Paul was talking about was the water baptism.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have been in many situations as I was thinking of my Lord Jesus Christ and the HS immersed me and witnessed that Jesus is the Son of God and is our Savior.

I do not place my faith in water baptism. I place my faith in Jesus Christ first and foremost. Then I also have faith enough to do what he has commanded us to do. One of those things is to go where there is enough water and be water baptized by immersion. I have faith in Jesus so I do what he asks.

There are many other good works that he asks us to do too, which I believe you completely ignore because you have chosen to follow a few sentences in the bible that Paul made about grace and not of works. The works that Paul was talking about were the works of the Law of Moses. He was not talking about good works associated with the Law of Christ represented by the NT.

Yes I have answered your question twice, but here is the 3rd time. The one baptism that Paul was talking about was the water baptism.

So lets see.

You do not place faith in water baptism, but the baptism that paul spoke of was water baptism. Ie, Man baptizing us in water is greater than the HS baptizing us into Christ (1 cor 12) and his death and burial (rom 6) Talk about contradicting yourself.

So how many times did God baptise you with the HS. Or did I misunderstand your first statement of remembering a few times where God did this.

And please. One more time. Stop your lies and slander that I ignore the works of God. All you do when you do that type of stuff is totally make a fool of yourself. Because I place a GREAT emphasis on all works of God. Not just a few works of God. And I hold them all as equal.

Ps. It is good to know you think water baptism is greater than Holy Spirit baptism. It speaks volumes.

 

[ljs]

@benhur

The Baptism Paul talks about is not a water baptism but a spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ , the minute you believe the Gospel 1st Cor. 1-4

 

[TruthTalk]

This newest app for your Iphone will be available this spring 2018. It will take all of the guess work out of listening to a false teacher. Just scan your Iphone in front of your computer and it will warn you if you are listening to a heretic or if they are telling you the truth. Watch for more wonderful Christian Apps coming to your home town soon, I know the wait is difficult.

 

[VCO]

Of course you are a hard worker, but you still have a phobia of using the words 'good works' in any of your religious discussions, unless it is to criticize someone who believes 'good works' are important in some way.

As for God accepted the blood of the lamb, but not Abels sacrifice, see this scripture:
Genesis 4:4 King James Version (KJV)

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

So I think God was happy with both the blood of the lamb, and Abels effort and had respect for Abel's good works.

The only motive for Obedience, that is of VALUE TO GOD, is simply: "Because you LOVE HIM."


Any other MOTIVE is a Pile of Filthy Rags.


Isaiah 64:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

 

[benhur]

The point you are not getting is this. If your faith in not in christ alone (I see no proof whatsoever that yours is) you have never placed your faith in christ. If you have never placed your faith totally in christ. You have never been baptised by the spirit. If you have never been baptised by the spirit. Your not saved. You can get baptised a million times, Obey every law you can think of. Go to church every Sunday and for good measure wed night prayer meeting, Give to the poor, be involved in small kinds of mission, and anything else that you think Gods people do, You will still be dead in your sin.

so when are you going to repent, and trust God and stop trusting some church ritual, which is massively important in our walk (if we wil not get baptised. Which is easy, how are we going to do the hard work) but is not a means to eternal life.

Are you trying to tell me that if I don't agree 100% with your theology, then I cannot even claim to have a belief in Jesus Christ or have had the immersion of the HS?

 

[VCO]

The same way that you know that you had the baptism of the spirit. So if you remember how the HS came to you, ditto that for me.

Now that was NO ANSWER AT ALL.

So what denomination are you affiliated with?

I go to a non-denominational Church, and we classify ourselves as Conservative Evangelical. It would be like Grace Community Church where DR. John MacArthur is Senior Pastor. Here is our Doctrinal Statement of Faith.

What We Believe

The Holy Scriptures

What We Believe

We believe the Scriptures—both the Old and New Testaments—to be the verbally inspired Word of God, written by men in God’s control, inerrant and infallible in the original manuscripts and the final authority in faith and life. We accept the literal, grammatical-historical system of interpretation[SUP]1[/SUP] of the Scriptures, and accept the historical record of the Bible as accurate and adequate[SUP]2[/SUP] (2 Tim. 3:15-17; 2 Pet. 1:20, 21; Ps. 19:7-9).


The Trinity[SUP]3[/SUP]

We believe in one God, the eternal, infinite and all-knowing Spirit in whom all things have their source [SUP]4[/SUP], support and end (Deut. 6:4; John 4:24; Gen. 1:1). Within this one God three distinct persons[SUP]5[/SUP] exist—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit[SUP]6[/SUP] —united, equal and perfect in all attributes (Matt. 28:19; Acts 7:55; Acts 10:38; 2 Cor. 13:14). The Godhead is one in essence, but within this perfect unity and equality exists order in function—first the Father, then the Son, and then the Holy Spirit[SUP]7[/SUP] (1 Cor. 11:3; John 17:3-4; John 15:26; John 16:7).


The Person and Work of the Father

We believe God the Father to be the first person of the Trinity. As part of the Trinity, God the Father is distinct both in His relationship to the other members of the Godhead and in His works as part of the Trinity. Within the Godhead, the Father is distinct in that He begets the Son and the Holy Spirit proceeds from Him (John 1:14; 15:26). Although all works of God are the acts of a Triune God, some acts are especially ascribed to the Father, such as creation[SUP]8[/SUP] (Eph. 3:9; Heb. 12:9), election (1 Pet. 1:2; Eph. 1:4), redemption (John 6:37; 17:4-7), and the predetermining of all things (Eph. 1:5; John 5:30). God the Father is also distinct in that He is seen as the Father of the second member of the Trinity (John 1:18; 14:13) and the spiritual Father of all who believe in Him (Matt. 5:45; 1 John 3:1).


The Person and Work of Christ

We believe the Lord Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, became man without ceasing to be God; that He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin, that He might redeem sinful man. He accomplished this redemption by voluntarily giving Himself as a sinless substitutionary sacrifice on the cross, thereby satisfying God’s righteous judgment against sin. He gave proof that He accomplished that redemption by His bodily resurrection[SUP]9[/SUP] from the grave. He then ascended to the right hand of His Father where He intercedes on behalf of those who trust Him (John 1:1, 2, 14, 18; Luke 1:34,35; Rom. 3:24-26; 8:34).


The Person and Work of the Holy Spirit

We believe the Holy Spirit is the Divine Person who convicts the world of sin; that He alone brings new life[SUP]10[/SUP] to those who are spiritually dead; that He baptizes[SUP]11[/SUP] (or places) all believers into the one true Church, which is the Body of Christ; that He indwells them permanently, seals them unto the day of redemption, bestows spiritual gifts upon them, and fills (controls) those who are yielding to Him (John 3:3-8; 16:7-11; 1 Cor. 12:13; John 14:16, 17; Eph. 4:30; 1 Cor. 12:7-11; Eph. 5:18).


The Condition of Man

We believe man was created in the image and likeness of God, in innocence and without sin. In Adam’s sin the race fell, inherited a sinful nature, became spiritually dead and alienated from God. As a result, man is a sinner by nature, imputation, and practice. Man, of himself, is incapable of remedying his lost and depraved[SUP]12[/SUP] condition (Gen. 1:26; 3:1-24; Rom. 3:10-18; 5:12; Eph. 2:1-3).


Salvation

We believe salvation is the gift[SUP]13[/SUP] of God’s grace given to all whom God has elected to salvation. It includes all that God does in saving the elect from the penalty, power, and presence of sin and in restoring them to a right relationship with God. As such, it is solely the work of God from initiation to completion. It cannot be gained by good works, but is a free gift for all who put their trust in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross. All who so trust in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord are forgiven[SUP]14[/SUP] and saved from their sins and declared righteous by God and are born into the family of God by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. God’s purpose for saving His elect is so that they bring glory to Him by their lives (Eph. 1:7; 2:8, 9; John 1:12; 2 Cor. 5:21; Phil. 1:6; Titus 2:11-14).


Security, Assurance and Responsibility

We believe all the saved—those in whom God has accomplished His transforming work of grace—are kept by His power and thus, are secure[SUP]15[/SUP] in Christ forever. This assurance, however, is not the occasion for sin, for God in holiness cannot tolerate persistent sin in His children, and in infinite love He corrects them. True faith in Christ is expressed by a fruitful, God-pleasing life[SUP]16[/SUP] (John 10:27-29; Rom. 8:29-39; 1 John 5:13; Heb. 12:6; Matt. 7:20; James 2:20).


Sanctification

We believe that God, in the Scriptures, has given us everything pertaining to life and godliness. This includes salvation from the penalty of sin and just as surely the provision of sanctification (separation) from sin. Sanctification from sin affects both the positional and practical aspects. Positional sanctification as a work of the Holy Spirit is complete and is without further growth; however, practical sanctification, a result of the work of the Spirit in regeneration using the Word of God, provides the nourishment[SUP]17[/SUP] for growth in maturity in Christ. While practical sanctification is assured by the Word and the Spirit, it is yet imperfect[SUP]18[/SUP] in this life. There is some element of corruption in every part of the fallen nature which is the source for the war between the flesh and the Spirit. The maturing to obedience is possible for believers as they feed on the Word, submit to the Spirit of God and are in fellowship[SUP]19[/SUP] with other believers for service and encouragement (John 17:17; 1 Cor. 1:30; Rom. 6:19, 22; Heb. 10:25; 1 Pet. 2:2; 2 Pet. 1:3).


Angels: Elect and Fallen

We believe angels are spirit beings created directly by God (Ps. 148:2-5; Job 38:4-7). As created beings, angels were made to serve God and are not to be worshiped (Heb. 1:14; Rev. 19:10; 22:8-9). We believe Satan is a created angel,[SUP]20[/SUP] originally made perfect by God, who incurred the judgment of God when he introduced sin into the universe by rebelling against his Creator (Is. 14:12-17; Ezek. 28:11-19). As a result of his rebellion, Satan and the angels who followed him (whom we now call demons), were removed from their exalted position in heaven (Ezek. 28:16). During this age, Satan and his demons actively oppose the plans of God and seek to deceive men from obeying God and His truth (1 Pet. 5:8; 2 Cor. 4:3-4). Though Satan and his demons are presently active in the world today, ultimately they will be sent to the lake of fire for eternity (Rev. 20:1-3; 7-10).
Though we believe that demon possession of unbelievers is possible, we do not hold that true Christians can be demon possessed[SUP]21[/SUP] or demonized[SUP]22[/SUP] (Heb. 2:14; 1 John 4:4). The Bible also nowhere encourages believers to engage Satan and demons directly,[SUP]23[/SUP]whether by speaking to them, binding them or casting them out.[SUP]24[/SUP]


The Church

We believe that the true Church, called in Scripture the Body of Christ,[SUP]25[/SUP] is a spiritual organism.[SUP]26[/SUP] Every person who has trusted Jesus Christ for salvation in this present age has been baptized (placed) into this organism by the Holy Spirit. The local church,[SUP]27[/SUP] as established in Scripture, is made up of redeemed individuals who have joined together for worship, instruction,[SUP]28[/SUP] fellowship,[SUP]29[/SUP] and service (Eph. 1:22; 1 Cor. 12:13; Acts 2:42; 13:1, 2).


Ordinances

We believe our Lord Jesus Christ instituted two ordinances to be observed by all believers until His return—baptism and the Lord’s Supper (Matt. 28:19; 1 Cor. 11:23-26).


The Second Coming of Christ

We believe in the personal, pretribulational coming of the Lord Jesus Christ for His Church and His subsequent premillennial[SUP]30[/SUP] return to earth to establish His kingdom (1 Thess. 4:13-18; Zech. 14:4-11; Rev. 19:11-16; 20:1-6).


The Eternal State

We believe at death the souls of those who have trusted Christ for salvation pass immediately into His presence and remain there in conscious bliss until the resurrection of the body at Christ’s coming for the Church, when soul and body will be reunited. We then shall be with Him forever in glory. We also believe that at death the souls of unbelievers remain in conscious misery until the final judgment of the Great White Throne at the close of the Millennium when the soul and body will be reunited and cast into the lake of fire—not to be annihilated, but to be separated from God forever in conscious punishment (Luke 16:19-26; 2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23; 2 Thess. 1:7-9; Rev. 20:11-15).

 

[benhur]

No requirement for eternal salvation only believe in the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ. And of course you have it written down backwards; it is not, "works proves saving faith" it is your faith will produce works, Christians are saved "unto good works" not by good works lest any one can boast. A child can understand this but you cannot because you are boasting in your works, which spells "Pride", no more need to explain the gospel truth to you because you will refuse to repent and believe.

Ephesians2:8-10 True Gospel
8) "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith and this is not from yourselves it is the gift of God
9) "not by works", so that no one can boast.
10) For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."​

Can we say that whether works proves saving faith, or that faith will produce works, it is for sure that if you do not produce good works, you have not faith in Jesus Christ?