The Rapture

[MattG]

Ahwatukee, don't wanna argue with you brother.

So, I'm just gonna leave your statements as they may be, God bless you friend in Christ.

We already know we dont believe the same way. Since I believe the rapture of the end-time saints, and the gathering of the church of the saints and 144,000 people have already happen.

You don't have to address me because of my view that you see is wrong, to your own view.

Hey did you know when you die, you will go see God?

That's being raptured, you are all gonna be taken one by one, because you're all going to die at random times like myself.

Then you will go see the Lord Jesus Christ, and God; like people who still wait to see the Lord Jesus Christ to return.

It's at a hour and a day that we, and even Jesus Christ doesn't even know, but the Father in heaven does.

This is the way I look at being caught up in the air with the Lord, is when you die, you're gonna go see God.

​

Notice this is what I said, This is the way I look at being caught up in the air.​

..

You don't have to agree with me.
​

 

[Ahwatukee]

so you agree that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 refers to the resurrection and rapture of the Church, but you don’t agree with me that it happens when the Lord returns?

Im getting the idea that you have never really read the words of this passage very well.

Which is why you seem to be ignoring these words I am quoting from 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

It’s as if you are just reciting what you heard others say, and refuse to simply open your eyes and read for yourself these words of scripture.

Sir, I have studied this topic for over 40 years, so I know what I am talking about. Therefore, let me make the teaching very clear:

Gathering of the church = Takes place prior to God's wrath, prior to the first seal being opened

Second coming = Jesus and those gathered, return to the earth to end the age after God's wrath

* You are here

* Church is gathered, dead and living

* Antichrist is revealed

* God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be in operation during those seven years

* Christ and the church return to the earth to end the age after God's wrath

* Beast and false prophet thrown into the lake of fire alive

* Satan bound in the Abyss

* Millennial kingdom (thousand year reign of Christ)

The above is a summary of the chronological order of events, but it demonstrates that the gathering of the church is a separate event from when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

 

[SpoonJuly]

Sir, I have studied this topic for over 40 years, so I know what I am talking about. Therefore, let me make the teaching very clear:

Gathering of the church = Takes place prior to God's wrath, prior to the first seal being opened

Second coming = Jesus and those gathered, return to the earth to end the age after God's wrath

* You are here

* Church is gathered, dead and living

* Antichrist is revealed

* God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be in operation during those seven years

* Christ and the church return to the earth to end the age after God's wrath

* Beast and false prophet thrown into the lake of fire alive

* Satan bound in the Abyss

* Millennial kingdom (thousand year reign of Christ)

The above is a summary of the chronological order of events, but it demonstrates that the gathering of the church is a separate event from when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

40 years of studying this topic and you still lack understanding that the gathering and coming are one event. What a waste.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hey did you know when you die, you will go see God?

That's being raptured, you are all gonna be taken one by one, because you're all going to die at random times like myself.

And I'm telling you, that you are deliberately ignoring the meaning of the word "resurrection." When a saint dies, that is not a resurrection! Did you even read the definition of the word "anastasis" translated as "resurrection?" If you did, you are plainly just ignoring it. When a believer dies, their spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord, not the body! Please pay attention to the scripture below:

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words."

According to the scripture above, the event of the resurrection and the living believers who are changed, is a group event, not an individual event. When a believer dies their spirits are departing from their body and going to be in the presence of the Lord, while the body will be buried and decays. The resurrection has to do with the body being reanimated and the spirit being reunited with the resurrected body.

You don't understand what the resurrection is or you wouldn't be claiming that it takes place at the time of each persons death. The definition of the word itself, which you obviously have not bothered to read, reveals the meaning of resurrection. Christ is our example, for he rose in the same body that he was crucified in, albeit immortal and glorified. It will be the same for all those who have died in Christ. When the Lord descends, the entire church from beginning to end will all rise at the same time and meet the Lord in the air, not one at a time.

As I said, you do not know what you are talking about. When you post this information as absolute, you are teaching and others are reading it. Therefore, you can be misleading any new believer who believes what you are posting and you will be held accountable for it.

It is always difficult and frustrating to teach preterist's because you people don't pay attention to the context of scripture nor to the definition of the words being used. Case in point, I just gave you the definition to the word "resurrection" as referring to the body standing up again, and you ignored it and continue instead to claim that the spirit of believer departing the body is a resurrection and thereby ignore the meaning of the word.

Notice this is what I said, This is the way I look at being caught up in the air.

Unfortunately, your way of "being caught up in the air" does not match how the word of God defines it. You need to look at it through what scripture teaches and not your way.

 

[Ahwatukee]

40 years of studying this topic and you still lack understanding that the gathering and coming are one event. What a waste.

I assure you, I do not lack in understanding of these events. By having the gathering of the church as taking place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God, which must take place prior to the second coming.

Now, who lacks understanding? You ignore the fact that scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath (1 Thes.5:9), that Jesus rescues us from God's coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10) and that the Lord said he would keep believers out of the time of God's wrath (Rev.3:10). By believing that the gathering of the church takes place at the same time as when Christ returns to the earth, you would then be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God.

Like many, you also don't take into consideration the fact that Rev.19:6-8 reveals the bride/church as already being in heaven and receiving her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb and then in Rev.19:14 the bride/church following Christ out of heaven and returning with him to the earth.

Try studying the information for yourself and stop just being a parrot and repeating the false teachings of men.

 

[PlainWord]

[qsuote]Naw, I believe that Jesus Christ has already gathered the end-time saints, and his church.

The only problem with your theory (and its a big one) is that it would mean that Christ left out gathering the majority of the His church. Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." Consequently, His church is still in the process of being built. According to your belief, only those who became believers from the onset of the church until the temple was destroyed 37 years later have been gathered, leaving over 1900 years of believers out of His promise to be gathered.

The truth is that, the Lord's promise to gather His church includes all believers in Christ from the beginning of the church until the end, dead and living. So that when the church is completed, the Lord will descend and all of those who have died in Christ up to that point will be resurrected in their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up (raptured) into the air. Immediately following that, those in Christ who are still alive will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up in the clouds with the resurrected group to meet the Lord in the air. At that point the entire church from beginning to end will be present in one place at the same time, where the Lord will then take the whole group back to the Father's house to those places that he will have prepared for us according to John 14:1-3.

The preterist view (Your view) leaves the majority of the church out of the Lord's promise, where the word of God has the entire church gathered at the same time. Your view leaves no resurrection for those who have died in Christ after the destruction of the temple, nor a changing and a catching up for the rest of the living church, but instead puts the church through God's wrath.

You have no idea what you are talking about and should not be teaching these things. [/QUOTE]

Do you really think the change that takes place is going from a mortal body to a glorified one? Do you also think that all the dead saints are still dead and buried and waiting? The change occurs within the soul, good buddy. No living mortal is going to simply change into a spiritual being. That doesn't happen until after death. Remember, it is appointed for all men to die, then the judgment.

 

[SpoonJuly]

I assure you, I do not lack in understanding of these events. By having the gathering of the church as taking place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God, which must take place prior to the second coming.

Now, who lacks understanding? You ignore the fact that scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath (1 Thes.5:9), that Jesus rescues us from God's coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10) and that the Lord said he would keep believers out of the time of God's wrath (Rev.3:10). By believing that the gathering of the church takes place at the same time as when Christ returns to the earth, you would then be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God.

Like many, you also don't take into consideration the fact that Rev.19:6-8 reveals the bride/church as already being in heaven and receiving her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb and then in Rev.19:14 the bride/church following Christ out of heaven and returning with him to the church.

Try studying the information for yourself and stop just being a parrot and repeating the false teachings of men.

I have studied for my self. I have also looked at many of your post on this topic.
You often state your 40 years of study implying that you should not be questioned. You know more than anyone else.
You continue to state that the seals and trumps are the wrath of God and base all your other understanding on that false belief.
I have also noticed that you will never discuss nor consider what others state. If they disagree, they are wrong.
You even have the nerve to tell others to stop expressing their opinions while you continue to express yours.

I believe you are wrong. I will not debate you. I will not waste my time. I will leave you to your folly.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Do you really think the change that takes place is going from a mortal body to a glorified one?

Yes, because that is what the word of God teaches, as can be seen below:

"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable (decays), it is raised imperishable (indecayable); it is sown in dishonor (sinful nature), it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;"

"I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

"But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God."

Do you also think that all the dead saints are still dead and buried and waiting?

Those who have died in Christ from the onset of the church until the time of the resurrection, their bodies are still in the dead and buried. At the time when Christ descends, those bodies will resurrect i.e. "stand back up again" and their spirits will be reunited with their resurrected bodies.

According to Philippians 1:22-23 and 2 Corinthians 5:6, to be present in the body is to be absent from the Lord. To be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord, in spirit that is.

When the church is completed, the Lord will descend bringing with him the spirits of those who will have died in him and their bodies will be resurrected with their spirits being reunited with their resurrected bodies. Immediately after that, those in Christ who are still alive will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. At that time the entire church will be present where the Lord will take the entire group back to the Father's house in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53.

To be clear, the spirits of all believers that have died in Christ from the onset of the church are currently in the presence of Christ. At the time of the resurrection those spirits will be reunited with their, immortal and glorified resurrected bodies. Then those in Christ who are still alive will be changed into our immortal and glorified bodies and will meet the resurrected in the clouds. This is the plain teaching of scripture regarding this event.

 

[Ahwatukee]

You continue to state that the seals and trumps are the wrath of God and base all your other understanding on that false belief

Then you better go back and study again, because the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are how God is going to pour out his wrath upon the earth and is what the majority of the book of Revelation is about. In fact, all three sets of seven judgments are referred to as God's wrath.

I have also noticed that you will never discuss nor consider what others state. If they disagree, they are wrong.

I always discuss it by providing scripture if what the person is claiming is wrong, because there is only one truth of how and in what order end-time events are going to take place. Paul and the other apostles did not say, "maybe the resurrection will happen this way or that," but they were confident because they knew the word of God. Having studied, and in fact living in the study of end-time events and in the book of Revelation and all related books, I am also confident about what the Spirit of God has revealed to be through all of these years of study and you will find that I always include scripture that I am expounding on.

Case in point, in your post above you attempt to discredit me as knowing the truth, yet you provided not even one scripture to back up your claim. you're not going to waste your time because I can prove my claim with scripture.

You said:

You continue to state that the seals and trumps are the wrath of God and base all your other understanding on that false belief

Here are the scriptures that support that the seals trumpets and bowls are indeed the wrath of God:


6th Seal (includes the previous seals)

"And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?” - Rev.6:17


7th Trumpet (Includes all of the trumpets)

Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven:

“The kingdom of the world is now the kingdom of our Lord
and of His Christ,
and He will reign forever and ever.”
And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:
“We give thanks to You, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was;
You have taken Your great power
and begun to reign.
The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come.
The time has come to judge the dead,
and to reward Your servants,
the prophets and saints,
and those who fear Your name,
both small and great,
and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Seven bowl judgments

"Then I saw another great and marvelous sign in heaven: seven angels with the seven final plagues, with which the wrath of God will be completed." - Rev.15:1

Still don't believe that the seals, trumpets and bowls are God's wrath?

Satan has inundated the word of God with false teachings on just about every Biblical topic. I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word and I therefore contend for it and will continue to contend for it with the authority of scripture.

 

[SpoonJuly]

Then you better go back and study again, because the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are how God is going to pour out his wrath upon the earth and is what the majority of the book of Revelation is about. In fact, all three sets of seven judgments are referred to as God's wrath.



I always discuss it by providing scripture if what the person is claiming is wrong, because there is only one truth of how and in what order end-time events are going to take place. Paul and the other apostles did not say, "maybe the resurrection will happen this way or that," but they were confident because they knew the word of God. Having studied, and in fact living in the study of end-time events and in the book of Revelation and all related books, I am also confident about what the Spirit of God has revealed to be through all of these years of study and you will find that I always include scripture that I am expounding on.

Case in point, in your post above you attempt to discredit me as knowing the truth, yet you provided not even one scripture to back up your claim. you're not going to waste your time because I can prove my claim with scripture.

You said:





Here are the scriptures that support that the seals trumpets and bowls are indeed the wrath of God:


6th Seal (includes the previous seals)

"And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?” - Rev.6:17


7th Trumpet (Includes all of the trumpets)

Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven:

“The kingdom of the world is now the kingdom of our Lord
and of His Christ,
and He will reign forever and ever.”
And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:
“We give thanks to You, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was;
You have taken Your great power
and begun to reign.
The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come.
The time has come to judge the dead,
and to reward Your servants,
the prophets and saints,
and those who fear Your name,
both small and great,
and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Seven bowl judgments

"Then I saw another great and marvelous sign in heaven: seven angels with the seven final plagues, with which the wrath of God will be completed." - Rev.15:1

Still don't believe that the seals, trumpets and bowls are God's wrath?

Satan has inundated the word of God with false teachings on just about every Biblical topic. I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word and I therefore contend for it and will continue to contend for it with the authority of scripture.

Point made. Your misunderstanding of Rev. 6:17
Who is speaking? Why are they speaking.
After 40 years you should understand these are men who are suffering blaming God. Their understand is just as false as yours.
That's it. I will leave you to your folly.

 

[abcdef]

Do you really think the change that takes place is going from a mortal body to a glorified one? Do you also think that all the dead saints are still dead and buried and waiting? The change occurs within the soul, good buddy. No living mortal is going to simply change into a spiritual being. That doesn't happen until after death. Remember, it is appointed for all men to die, then the judgment.

1 C0r 15:52, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised, incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

V 53, "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immorality."

 

[Ahwatukee]

Point made. Your misunderstanding of Rev. 6:17
Who is speaking? Why are they speaking.
After 40 years you should understand these are men who are suffering blaming God. Their understand is just as false as yours.
That's it. I will leave you to your folly.

The point is that, the very first verse in Revelation states "The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave him to show his servants the things which must soon take place." Those "things which must soon take place" are the events of God's wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments as described from chapters 6 thru 18. These judgments will be how God fulfills the day of the Lord, that hour of trial, the wrath of God.

Nothing that you have said above changes the fact that through these three sets of seven judgments is how God is going to carry out his wrath and the church must be removed prior to said wrath and that for the reasons previously given.

Rev.6:17 is an announcement of the God's wrath in it's entirety, i.e. the seals that will have previously taken place, as well as the trumpets and bowls which follow. There is no folly, as I am speaking the truth in these matters.

 

[abcdef]

The rapt/resur happens at the 7th/last trumpet. which is the 2nd of the 2 only resurrections, 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24.

The seals and trumpets are on the natural branches for rejecting Jesus and the gospel Pentecost kingdom.

1 -7 seals, The rejection of the gospel by the natural branches, until the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad.

1/2 hour of silence, The time between 70 ad and the writing of the Revelation.

1 - 7 trumpets, The writing of the revelation (after 70 ad approx.) until the last trumpet that is also the 7th trumpet.

Then it is the end, 1 Cor 15:23 -24, when death is destroyed after the judgment.

So the rapt/resur takes place at the 7th trumpet

---

The 2 Witnesses (2W's) is the same story as the seals and trumpets. except that the 2W's story is from the viewpoint of the loved of God, and the seals/trumps is told from the viewpoint of a nation rejecting God.

---

The mill kingdom runs at the same time as the seals/trumps.

In the gospel Pentecost kingdom is God's blessings of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (gift Acts 2:38). (Loin/Lamb etc)

Outside of the kingdom, Israel of the natural branches suffer the wrath of God (withdrawing of blessings, protection), at the hands of the Roman iron (Daniel 2) beast dragon, until they are restored to military control of Jerusalem 1967.

The Antichrist is Rome, Caesar/Bor,

It was revealed at the dest of Jeru. that Caesar was the Antichrist.

The Caesar that is destroyed by the brightness of His coming is not the original Caesars of the Roman Empire, but the image Caesar's of the revived Roman Empire.

 

[SpoonJuly]

The rapt/resur happens at the 7th/last trumpet. which is the 2nd of the 2 only resurrections, 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24.

The seals and trumpets are on the natural branches for rejecting Jesus and the gospel Pentecost kingdom.

1 -7 seals, The rejection of the gospel by the natural branches, until the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad.

1/2 hour of silence, The time between 70 ad and the writing of the Revelation.

1 - 7 trumpets, The writing of the revelation (after 70 ad approx.) until the last trumpet that is also the 7th trumpet.

Then it is the end, 1 Cor 15:23 -24, when death is destroyed after the judgment.

So the rapt/resur takes place at the 7th trumpet

---

The 2 Witnesses (2W's) is the same story as the seals and trumpets. except that the 2W's story is from the viewpoint of the loved of God, and the seals/trumps is told from the viewpoint of a nation rejecting God.

---

The mill kingdom runs at the same time as the seals/trumps.

In the gospel Pentecost kingdom is God's blessings of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (gift Acts 2:38). (Loin/Lamb etc)

Outside of the kingdom, Israel of the natural branches suffer the wrath of God (withdrawing of blessings, protection), at the hands of the Roman iron (Daniel 2) beast dragon, until they are restored to military control of Jerusalem 1967.

The Antichrist is Rome, Caesar/Bor,

It was revealed at the dest of Jeru. that Caesar was the Antichrist.

The Caesar that is destroyed by the brightness of His coming is not the original Caesars of the Roman Empire, but the image Caesar's of the revived Roman Empire.

Your first sentence is correct, but after that, pure trash.

 

[abcdef]

Your first sentence is correct, but after that, pure trash.

Hi, Does that mean you disagree? ha ha.

Your explanation is better? What is it?

 

[abcdef]

There are striking parallels between the writings of Daniel, John and Matthew with regard to the Great Tribulation and the events surrounding it. When laid out in a chart, it seems clear that they are speaking of the same things. When coupled with the many time related statements in each, it becomes apparent that these events were about to take place in the time of the disciples and not 2,000 years later. Consider the following:

The Sealed Scroll - Coincidence???

Starting from Jesus' words in the Olivett Discourse (Mt. 24, Lk. 21, Mk.13) we can see that the events spoken of refer to the same events in Daniel (Mt. 24:15). Once we have carefully laid out the order of these events in the Olivett Discourse, we can also see that they very closely parallel Jesus' words in Revelation 6. What is interesting is that at the end of Daniel where he asks about the Great Tribulation (Dan. 12:1,6), he is told to seal up his book (12:4,9) because it relates to events at the time of the end.

Note how Revelation 6 opens up - the unsealing of a scroll! Could this be the very scroll Daniel was told to seal? Now, if Daniel is writing about the Great Tribulation (during the time of the end), and Jesus identifies this time with the events of the Olivett Discourse (at the end of the age), and these parallel Revelation 6 - should they not tell the same story? As we see, they do.

They are the same scroll

Coming Soon

If these things are so, what does it mean when John is told these things are about to take place (Rev. 1:1 and 22:10, 22)? Note that John is told in verse 22 that he is NOT to seal up his book (for the time was near). This is the exact opposite of Daniel's admonition TO seal his book (for the time was apparently still far in the future). Consider this: John wrote Revelation in the 1st Century A.D. If Daniel wrote around 550 B.C. (when "the end" was still far off), and John wrote about the same events less than than 600 years after Daniel (when "the time" was near), how could we still be looking for fulfillment 2,000 years later?

The End - of what?

Daniel was specifically told that "the end"

The end of the things mentioned in the LAST vision of Daniel.

would come when the "power of the holy people [the Jews]" was shattered. The power of the Jews was shattered in 70 A.D. at the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem

Brother PlainWord,

If you can get this, you will understand.

See how long it says that the time period is, from the speaking of the prophecy in Dan 12., until the power is scattered in 70 ad.

It specifically says that the time period is 3 1/2 times.

From Babylon until 70 ad is 3 1/2 times.... From Babylon until 70 ad is 3 1/2 times..... From Babylon until 70 ad is 3 1/2 times.

Get it? From Babylon until 70 ad is 3 1/2 times. The first 3 1/2 times.

The second 3 1/2 times is from 70 ad until Jerusalem is restored to Israel.

The 7 times are the same time period as the statue in Dan. 2. When the statue ends, Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

. . . and it was this very destruction that Jesus was speaking of in the Olivett Discourse (Mt.23:38-24:4).

Matthew records that Jesus said the end would come after the Gospel had been preached in the whole world. It would seem that this could not have happened by 70 A.D. But as Paul shows in Colossians 1:5-6, 23 and Romans 10:18 it had in fact gone into the whole world ("the world" was synonymous with the Roman Empire - see Acts 11:28; 17:6).

"The End" was the end of the Old Covenant. The "end times" (or "last days") were the transition period that lasted about 40 years starting from the time of Christ and extending one generation (Mt. 24:34) to 70 A.D. Just as the Old Covenant was established after a 40 year transition time (from Egypt to the Promised Land), so was the New established in a 40 year transition out of spiritual Egypt (1 Cor. 10:1-6; Gal 4:21-31; Heb. 4:9; Rev. 11:8 & 19).

Conclusion

If these things are so then Daniel, John, and Jesus are referring to the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem with regard to the Great Tribulation and the Day of The Lord judgment that the Jews incurred when they rejected Messiah (Mt. 23:36-39). If this is true then, of course, the Great Tribulation is over.

Doug Beaumont - 2000

........................

 

[PlainWord]

1 C0r 15:52, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised, incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

V 53, "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immorality."

I know what the text says. I've read it 1000 times. Indeed, during the resurrection, the dead saints rose as new spiritual beings and went to heaven having been freed from Hades. However, no part of their flesh and blood earthly bodies rose with them. If you go dig up King David's grave, his remains will still be there (probably as dust by now), I assure you. Peter teaches us in Acts 2 that only Christ's body did not see corruption, David's (and everyone else's) body did see corruption and corruption cannot enter heaven.

The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. [SUP]43 [/SUP]It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory.

This happened "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...the dead will be raised incorruptible." And so they were.

"We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed." "Sleep" in this context means "Dead in Hades." Thus, we shall not all die and go to Hades because Hades = Death and Death = Separation from God. Christ had the Key to Death and Hades and He set the captives free in 70 AD.

"But God gives it a body as He pleases..." Our new bodies will come from God, not from the dust of our earthly bodies. "For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Our earthly bodies are destroyed, they cannot be reconstituted.

Our new body is from God and our souls receive it upon death. Our souls no longer "rest" in Hades awaiting the resurrection, because we pass from death to life immediately upon salvation. Therefore we do not need to experience separation from God (Death) as they did prior to Christ "restoring all things."

 

[PlainWord]

A-F,

They are the same scroll

Cool, huh?

The end of the things mentioned in the LAST vision of Daniel.

The end, was the end of his nation in 70 AD. The book was sealed until that time when Christ opened it. The events of Revelation dealt with the destruction of Jeru in 70 AD and the end of the Mosaic covenant age AKA, the Law.

Brother PlainWord,

If you can get this, you will understand.

See how long it says that the time period is, from the speaking of the prophecy in Dan 12., until the power is scattered in 70 ad.

It specifically says that the time period is 3 1/2 times.

From Babylon until 70 ad is 3 1/2 times.... From Babylon until 70 ad is 3 1/2 times..... From Babylon until 70 ad is 3 1/2 times.

Get it? From Babylon until 70 ad is 3 1/2 times. The first 3 1/2 times.

The second 3 1/2 times is from 70 ad until Jerusalem is restored to Israel.

The 7 times are the same time period as the statue in Dan. 2. When the statue ends, Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

Is it? The time periods do not match, not even close. A bit over 600 years compared to nearly 1900 years.

that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

The "holy people" lost their power in 70 AD when 93% of them were dead and the remaining 7% were led away captive. At this point, ALL THINGS (related to Israel and the Mosaic covenant) were finished. That age ended in 70 AD and thus ends the prophesy. There is nothing there about the restoration of Israel in 1948.

 

[PlainWord]

The point is that, the very first verse in Revelation states "The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave him to show his servants the things which must soon take place." Those "things which must soon take place" are the events of God's wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments as described from chapters 6 thru 18. These judgments will be how God fulfills the day of the Lord, that hour of trial, the wrath of God.

Nothing that you have said above changes the fact that through these three sets of seven judgments is how God is going to carry out his wrath and the church must be removed prior to said wrath and that for the reasons previously given.

Rev.6:17 is an announcement of the God's wrath in it's entirety, i.e. the seals that will have previously taken place, as well as the trumpets and bowls which follow. There is no folly, as I am speaking the truth in these matters.

Is 2,000 years soon? Those things already took place brother. You are looking forward to an event that was in ancient history to us.

The Church in Jerusalem was removed from the wrath. Read the early Church fathers, they all discuss the fleeing over the mountains to Pella. Google it, read it, then love it good buddy. You can sleep better now knowing the boggy man is dead.

 

[Endoscopy]

Evidently you missed this Scripture (Heb 1:1,2):
B
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds...

The "last days" began with the first coming of Christ, and bear in mind that with God 1,000 years are as one day.

The end times being discussed are in both Daniel and Revelation. Revelation was one of the very last books written and a few decades after Jesus Crucifixion!! Get your timeline straight. It makes a difference when the words are written in context with Jesus sacrifice. Revelation points to the future not it's past.

Taking a phrase and ignoring all of the rest of the scripture that deals with the subject allows anyone to prove anything.