Not By Works

benhur · Mar 1, 2018

I have never seen the word 'baptism', or 'baptized', standing alone, refer to the baptism of the HS. So for your sake, I hope you are right, that the word 'baptized' in this scripture refers to the baptism of the HS.

NoNameMcgee · Mar 1, 2018

benhur said:

hahahaha

you believe adam got baptized?

what about the thief on the cross?

ok

you can believe water baptism AND belief saves

i believe we are saved by grace through faith and baptized of the Holy spirit

but even if im wrong

"for my sake"

it doesnt say he who does not believe OR has not been baptized (by water) is damned

ElAmor · Mar 1, 2018

1 Corinthians 3:1-9 On Divisions in the Church Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men? What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

ElAmor · Mar 1, 2018

Ephesians 4:11-16 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

LightLoveHope · Mar 1, 2018

BillG said:

Hi Bill,

I do not have issues with anyone. May everyone continue as they deem fit.
Even in sharing what people believe. If they share honestly what they believe and why,
Amen.

What I do have issues with is provocative statements against individuals without a context
or actual facts. It is a form of bullying. And the problem is there is no response other than
God bless you, may the Lord bring light to ones soul and His truth to ones heart.

Like all humans I would desire to be liked and accepted, except when
that acceptance compromises who Jesus is and His walk.

How do I know what God can do? I look at the apostles and the ordinary
men they were and what God made them into in being apostles. It is always
us who hold back Gods work in our hearts, and we put limitations on what
is appropriate and acceptable.

So I know the limited nature of my words should not cause the stir it does
if people knew the realities of which I speak. We are emotional creatures
with our histories, and this clouds all messages which we will accept and those
which we will reject. Even at the point of death, when some hope for a death
bed conversion, often this is just wishful thinking because a hard heart does not
want to listen, and is sure there is no other way.

Now if people think this is narrow sharing, God help them, for I see little future
or revelation.

Some say I talk as if I have all the answers. This is spiritual milk, nothing more,
so the deeper realities are way more interesting than this, but reject the simple
stuff and one will never progress.

ElAmor · Mar 1, 2018

Ephesians 4:17-32 Living as Children of Light So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more. You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. “In your anger do not sin”: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold. He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need. Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.

Endoscopy · Mar 1, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

Here is the scripture about the relatinshipr between works and faith. Explain your view in light of this passage.
James 2

Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Endoscopy · Mar 1, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

Here is the scripture about the relationship between works and faith. Explain your view in light of this passage.

James 2 NIV

Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

LightLoveHope · Mar 1, 2018

benhur said:

This interpretation is a very 20th century view of the work of the Holy Spirit.
When the Holy Spirit fell at pentecost it was not called baptism, and when
the Spirit fell on Cornelius's household it was not called baptism.

Baptism was reserved for water baptism as a sign of repentance.
And if everyone who believes receives the Holy Spirit, then how
would baptism of the Holy Spirit be separated as it is in the sentence in
Mark 16:16

And secondly why even interpret it this way? Maybe to devalue religious
symbolism, which the Free Grace movement hate, even when instituted by God.

NoNameMcgee · Mar 1, 2018

LightLoveHope said:

Matthew 3:11 - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Acts 1:5 - For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

benhur · Mar 1, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

You do not know for sure if Adam or the thief was baptized, so it is not a solid position to take. The best you can say is "I think they were not baptized", which is not the end.

I'm glad you believe and were baptized by the HS. In the bible there are many scriptures that relate that the apostles baptized many by water baptism. What's with that. Do you think that the apostles would have water baptized if it was not necessary?

Do you think Jesus would have been water baptized if it was not necessary?

Do you think Jesus would have instructed his apostles to go out and preach the gospel to the world and baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the HS if it was not necessary?

Like I say, for your sake, I hope you are right that all you need is the baptism of the HS, but the bible gives a lot of instances of water baptism.

Of course water baptism in and of itself will not save you. There is more to being saved than water baptism. And of course if you don't believe you will be damned regardless if you go out and have a water baptism or not.

Magenta · Mar 1, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

Amen! Some people just do not understand spiritual things

Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of
his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” John 7:38

Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty
again, but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never
be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him
a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” John 4:13b-14

And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega,
the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the
spring of the water of life without payment." Rev 21:6

The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say,

“Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one
who desires take the water of life without price. Rev 22:17

With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation. Isa 12:3

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright
as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb. Rev 22:1

On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said
in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink.
Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water
will flow from within them.” By this he meant the Spirit,
whom those who believed in him were later to receive. John 7:37-39a

They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall
not strike them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb in the midst
of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs
of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Rev 7:16-17

Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and Who it is
that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have
asked him, and he would have given you living water.” John 4:10

VCO · Mar 1, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

And the Baptism by the Holy Spirit, immerses you into the body of Christ. Even the thief on the Cross was immerses into the body of Christ. And I personally believe that Old Testament true believers, that MESSIAH would come, their faith, like Abraham, immersed them into the body of Christ.

benhur · Mar 1, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

Have you ever read the interesting account in Acts 19:1-6. Read it if you would and then comment on it. Thank you.

Magenta · Mar 1, 2018

Also, all four of the gospels have John the Baptist testifying/prophesying that the One coming (he was of course referring to the incarnation of Jesus Christ as the spotless Lamb of God) would baptize with the Holy Spirit. Two of the gospels also say, "and with fire," or "and fire." So anyone who says this is a new idea, has no idea what they are talking about.

benhur · Mar 1, 2018

VCO said:

If this is the case, then why did Peter in Acts 2:37-38 instruct these new believers differently. Read it if you would, and comment on this passage. Thank you.

Magenta · Mar 1, 2018

benhur said:

Obviously water baptism there didn't do anything, did it?

Acts 19:1-6

While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the LORD Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Magenta · Mar 1, 2018

benhur said:

As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation. gotquestions.org

LightLoveHope · Mar 1, 2018

benhur said:

For those wanting to change church history, baptism is not a good place to start.
It has always been part of coming to faith, an outward sign of an inner reality.

Now those who reject repentance from sins, because they believe sins are not
a salvation issue, want to remove baptism by claiming it is a wrong interpretation
of Jesus's words.

But the people who knew the apostles baptised everyone. There has never been
a denial of this ceremony, instituted by God through John the Baptist and decreed
in the great commission for the church to perform.

It tells me of the simplicity and overriding the desire to remove anything they regard
as a religious ceremony. At this rate they will remove the breaking of bread as well,
marriage ceremony, funerals, sunday meeting in churches, pastors, theological
colleges.

This kind of insanity, leads people to even question do we have a core essential
reality we call our hearts, because it does not fit the new theology.

benhur · Mar 1, 2018

Magenta said:

First, these people were believers in Jesus Christ. They, however, had not had the baptism of the HS yet.

Then Paul rebaptized them (water baptism) in the name of the Lord.

Then Paul layed his hands on their heads and they recieved the HS.

This model of receiving the HS is different than you portray through your bible filter. Why do you think that is so?

Not By Works

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