The Rapture

[Endoscopy]

There are 4 seperate Biblical views of eschatology for a reasre. End times scripture is filled with symbolism. Daniel even states that the meaning will be hidden until the end. Of course there are those who believe they have the answer. I read in magazines and small booklets that these people who write them say they cracked the meaning and the end is soon. Now we have one posted this because God spoke to him and personally informed him. He claims May is the month. Only 3 months to see another failure. I have lost count of the number of times I have heard this before.

 

[Endoscopy]

Brother tanakh,




Yes, Jesus had told the apostles that Jerusalem would fall and be trampled by the gentiles until the times of the gentiles (ToG's) would fulfilled Lk 21:20. So the apostles knew that there would be a ToG's, but they didn't know how long it would last. It appears that they believed that they might live to see the rapt/resur.




John called it the last hour because of the antichrists in the great falling away before Jerusalem was destroyed.




This is the problem with both pre-trib and preterism, they both have a gap in prophecy where there actually is no gap.

For preterists, the gap begins at 70 ad and is open ended. Preterists are blind to everything after 70 ad. But prophecies are not all ended in 70 ad. The rapt/resurrection did not take place in 70 ad. It has yet to be.

For pretrib the gap is from approx 33 ad/70ad until the rapt/resur. that is yet to come (depending on who you are talking to).

But the answer is that there is no gap. The statue of Dan 2 shows no gap. The 4th beast nation of Dan 7 shows no gap. The beast city/nation of Rev 17 shows no gap.

But this leads us to the question, why do they say that there is a gap? The answer is, Both are hiding the Roman beast Antichrist nation/kingdom Vatican.

Think about it. Preterists say that everything ended in 70 ad, so the Roman beast cannot be the Vatican/BoR.

And the pre-trib say the same thing in a way. The Roman beast nation cannot be the Vatican/Bor because the Antichrist has not been revealed yet.

But both CHOOSE TO IGNORE the fact that there is no gap in prophecy from 33/70 ad until now, it is all shown as the ToG's.

The ToG's fill in the gap so there really isn't a gap at all.

The Roman Antichrist first is Caesar and the Roman Empire. Then when Rome falls, it is the Roman image beast of the Vatican/Bor that rules over the people of Israel until they are restored to Jerusalem.

This is the ToG's, and the second 3 1/2 times from 70 ad until 1967, completing the 7 times and the toes of the statue in Dan. 2.




Does it apply exclusively to the 7 congregations? Or is it prophetic for all believers?




The time of the end began on Pentecost. Paul said that he was in the last days. It was not known for sure that Rome was the iron legs until after it was revealed at the dest of Jerusalem that Caesar was the Antichrist.

(The Holy Spirit was "taken away" from Jerusalem when the last Christians left the city. The Antichrist was revealed as Caesar. But the Antichrist that is destroyed by the brightness of His coming is not the Caesar of the Roman Empire proper, but the image Caesar that lives after the first Antichrist has died. Sea beast Roman Empire/Earth beast Religious Roman Empire image.)




This is the scroll from Daniel 12 that was sealed until the time of the end (last days).

It could not be opened until 3 1/2 times had passed, Babylon until the scattering of 70 ad.. This places the writing of the Rev after the dest of Jerusalem and the scattering of 70 ad.

The scroll tells the story of the 2 witnesses (2 W's). It is the story of Israel (natural branches) from 70 ad, the scattering/Tog's, until the rapt/resur and the end of the planet at the 7th/last trumpet.




The temple that is mentioned in the story of the 2W's is the temple of 70 ad. It was judged and found to be, not perfect.

The 2W's mourn until they are restored to Jerusalem. (1967)



Yes, the symbolism is all explained in the OT scriptures. The problems of understanding the Rev come from people choosing to ignore these examples of symbolism explained.

ROFL
Those 2 witnesses are to be killed and all the world will see their bodies lay in the street for 3 days rejoicing about their deaths. Now we have the ability to be do that. We can see live and in full color events happening anywhere in the world. The end is approaching soon but other prophecies need to be done first. Not all is set in place. Some are saying that preparation for the new temple is being done on the site of the original temple just south of the temple mount in the northern part of the City of David. We will see what happens. The abomination of desolation is said to require a new temple.

 

[tanakh]

Brother tanakh,




Yes, Jesus had told the apostles that Jerusalem would fall and be trampled by the gentiles until the times of the gentiles (ToG's) would fulfilled Lk 21:20. So the apostles knew that there would be a ToG's, but they didn't know how long it would last. It appears that they believed that they might live to see the rapt/resur.




John called it the last hour because of the antichrists in the great falling away before Jerusalem was destroyed.




This is the problem with both pre-trib and preterism, they both have a gap in prophecy where there actually is no gap.

For preterists, the gap begins at 70 ad and is open ended. Preterists are blind to everything after 70 ad. But prophecies are not all ended in 70 ad. The rapt/resurrection did not take place in 70 ad. It has yet to be.

For pretrib the gap is from approx 33 ad/70ad until the rapt/resur. that is yet to come (depending on who you are talking to).

But the answer is that there is no gap. The statue of Dan 2 shows no gap. The 4th beast nation of Dan 7 shows no gap. The beast city/nation of Rev 17 shows no gap.

But this leads us to the question, why do they say that there is a gap? The answer is, Both are hiding the Roman beast Antichrist nation/kingdom Vatican.

Think about it. Preterists say that everything ended in 70 ad, so the Roman beast cannot be the Vatican/BoR.

And the pre-trib say the same thing in a way. The Roman beast nation cannot be the Vatican/Bor because the Antichrist has not been revealed yet.

But both CHOOSE TO IGNORE the fact that there is no gap in prophecy from 33/70 ad until now, it is all shown as the ToG's.

The ToG's fill in the gap so there really isn't a gap at all.

The Roman Antichrist first is Caesar and the Roman Empire. Then when Rome falls, it is the Roman image beast of the Vatican/Bor that rules over the people of Israel until they are restored to Jerusalem.

This is the ToG's, and the second 3 1/2 times from 70 ad until 1967, completing the 7 times and the toes of the statue in Dan. 2.




Does it apply exclusively to the 7 congregations? Or is it prophetic for all believers?




The time of the end began on Pentecost. Paul said that he was in the last days. It was not known for sure that Rome was the iron legs until after it was revealed at the dest of Jerusalem that Caesar was the Antichrist.

(The Holy Spirit was "taken away" from Jerusalem when the last Christians left the city. The Antichrist was revealed as Caesar. But the Antichrist that is destroyed by the brightness of His coming is not the Caesar of the Roman Empire proper, but the image Caesar that lives after the first Antichrist has died. Sea beast Roman Empire/Earth beast Religious Roman Empire image.)




This is the scroll from Daniel 12 that was sealed until the time of the end (last days).

It could not be opened until 3 1/2 times had passed, Babylon until the scattering of 70 ad.. This places the writing of the Rev after the dest of Jerusalem and the scattering of 70 ad.

The scroll tells the story of the 2 witnesses (2 W's). It is the story of Israel (natural branches) from 70 ad, the scattering/Tog's, until the rapt/resur and the end of the planet at the 7th/last trumpet.




The temple that is mentioned in the story of the 2W's is the temple of 70 ad. It was judged and found to be, not perfect.

The 2W's mourn until they are restored to Jerusalem. (1967)



Yes, the symbolism is all explained in the OT scriptures. The problems of understanding the Rev come from people choosing to ignore these examples of symbolism explained.

Thanks for the reply. Just thought to mention that there are two main groups of Preterists. One is called full Preterest which as you correctly state believe everything happened in 70AD the others are known as Partial Preterists who do believe that the second coming and the resurrection is yet to happen which I consider to be closer to the truth than anything else I've come across so far.

 

[abcdef]

ROFL

Brother Endoscopy.

It is not a matter of IF you will understand, only a matter of WHEN you will understand. In this world or the next, you will understand. Try to take a fresh look at what I am saying.

Those 2 witnesses

Zech 4:1-14, 6, 11, 14, clearly state that the 2W's are the LITERAL Word of God v 6. The olive trees are part of the vision.

For Zerubbabel vs 7-9, it was confirmation of his intention to rebuild the temple and that God was with Israel.

But what the vision showed was God's blessings (oil of the H.S.) flowing through Israel to all living souls and creation.

The Word of God is Jesus and the Holy Scriptures. But at the time of the writing of the letters of the NT and the Rev. there was still only the OT scriptures, as the NT was not assembled until years after Rev was given.

So the 2W's are literally the Word of God, but what was the Word of God all the time, even until the NT letters were assembled? The OT scriptures. They are the Law and the Prophets.

So the 2W's in Rev. are the same 2 W's in the vision of Zerubbabel, the Law and the Prophets.

The Law and the Prophets are held by Israel and they witness of Jesus and eternal life. The Holy Spirit is witness through them that Jesus is the Creator, the God of Mt Sinai, and the God of Israel. (The gentiles are grafted in.)

Their return to Jerusalem PROVES that the prophecies about them are true.

are to be killed

They are surrounded right now by the 200 mill army. Jerusalem will soon fall to the kings of the east, Iran and it's allies the nations Magog.

It could be only months, or a few years, I don't know, but the day will come.

and all the world will see their bodies lay in the street for 3 days

3 1/2 days. The bodies lay in the streets for 3 1/2 days. When Jerusalem falls to Iran,......soon,.....this will happen in front of you, there will be NO MISTAKING THESE PROPHECIES COMING TRUE BEFORE YOUR EYES, THEN YOU WILL KNOW WITH OUT A DOUBT THAT JESUS IS COMING FOR THE KINGDOM AND THE 7TH/LAST TRUMPET IS ABOUT TO SOUND!

rejoicing about their deaths.

Yes, sending gifts and rejoicing that Israel is dead, never to be a nation again.

Just as Cain killed his brother Able, these nations will kill Israel to prove that they are God's people. The thought is, that if Cain kills Able, then God will have to accept Cain's offering because Able is no more. This is the same thing, when Israel is dead, then only Islam/Satan will be left, and that will prove that Islam is the people of god, and God will have no choice but to accept them and their offerings.

The 2W's are called tormentors Rev 11:10, because by their existence as God's people, they are pointing out sin and the true God.

Now we have the ability to be do that. We can see live and in full color events happening anywhere in the world. The end is approaching soon but other prophecies need to be done first. Not all is set in place.

Everything IS in place. When Iran is in Jerusalem, there is only 3 1/2 days left to get in the Ark of Jesus before this planet ends in fire.

Some are saying that preparation for the new temple is being done on the site of the original temple just south of the temple mount in the northern part of the City of David. We will see what happens.

Iran may destroy them before it ever happens. The battle of Armageddon has already begun.

The abomination of desolation is said to require a new temple.

So, they are building the temple, to welcome the Antichrist? Who would support such a thing?

The entire context of the Dan. 9 passage shows the coming of Jesus for His ministry and the dest of Jeru in 70 ad.

To pull the AoD out of that context and make the AoD a future event from 70 ad is to disregard the context of the time line.

Caesar/BoR is the iron legs/toes Antichrist. (no gap)

 

[abcdef]

Thanks for the reply. Just thought to mention that there are two main groups of Preterists. One is called full Preterest which as you correctly state believe everything happened in 70AD the others are known as Partial Preterists who do believe that the second coming and the resurrection is yet to happen which I consider to be closer to the truth than anything else I've come across so far.

Brother tanakh,

For me, the answer is understanding that Jesus came in 70 ad to destroy Jerusalem, but it wasn't a resurrection coming.

The reasoning is to separate the prophecies about the coming to destroy Jerusalem in 70 ad, and the coming for the kingdom at the rapt/resur., coming soon.

The apostles may have thought that the time line would be similar or shorter than the exile to Babylon and the return.

The time of the gentiles fills in the gap. When the ToG's end, Jerusalem is restored to Israel.

The ToG's are also shown as the 2W's outside the city and the woman in the wilderness in Rev 12.

 

[abcdef]

.

The rapture/resurrection (rapt/resur) will happen at the 7th/last trumpet when Jesus comes for the kingdom Rev 11:15.

Many of the events shown before that event have already taken place.

=========



The story of the scroll Dan 12:4-7, Rev chs 5-11. The 7 seals and the 7 trumpets.

The 7 seals show the time from the rejection of the gospel kingdom/church by Israel in 37 ad., until the destruction of Jerusalem (dest of Jeru.) in 70 ad...............37 ad - 70 ad.

The 7 trumpets show the time after 70 ad when the natural cut off branches were scattered among the gentile nations for the times of the gentiles (ToG's).................70 ad - 7th trumpet, the rapt/resur, judgement, and eternity.

After the 7th trumpet sounds, then comes the judgment and rewards Rev 11:18.

So the idea is to look closely at the events just before the 7th trumpet.

=============



1-4 trumpets, show God's withdrawing of blessings on the broken natural branches
for the ToG's.

5th trumpet, the trumpet of separation, 1929, Rome comes out of the abyss. The people of Israel are driven back to the land of Israel to begin to restore Jerusalem.

1967, Israel is restored to military control over Jerusalem ending the ToG's.

9/11/01 The 6th trumpet, events begin (Bush) that lead to the people of the Euphrates region loosing power (Saddam/Iraq), making way for the kings of the east (Iran and it's allies) to attack Jerusalem with the 200 mill army.

The seals/trumpets show the broken off natural branches from the viewpoint of God withdrawing His blessings on a nation that will not repent and accept Jesus.

----

The 2 witnesses (2W's) show the same story of the broken off branches, but from the viewpoint that Israel is still blessed/loved because of the promises made to the fathers.

Rev 11:1-13, The temple of 70 ad is judged and found to be not perfect (after Jesus and the new covenant).

The broken branches are in mourning until they are restored to Jerusalem 70 ad - 1967.

Once Israel, the 2W's, are restored to Jerusalem, they are killed by the army of 200 mill who were deceived by the Roman iron beast false prophet Rev 16:13-14.

After 3 1/2 days the rapt/resur happens and we are all caught up to heaven with Jesus Rev 11:11-12.

=================



So the rapt/resur will happen at the 7th/last trumpet, but where are we now?

Well, the people of the Euphrates river region have dried up, making way for the kings of the east (Iran) and their allies Magog (Russia, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, etc).

Israel and Jerusalem are surrounded right now.

The forces of Israel and Iran have now engaged directly with each other (the beginning of the battle of Armageddon).
(It is reported that Iran has 70,000 troops in Syria right now. Israel has repeatedly bombed Iranian positions. There has been reported by Iranian forces that in Lebanon and Syria that there are over 100,000 missiles aimed at Israel).

So we are getting close, very close, and the truth is, that when Iran attacks Israel, and Israel and Jerusalem begin to fall, it will only be a matter of days until Jesus comes for the kingdom.

(The closer we get to this event, the more obvious it will become to everyone)

3 1/2 days after Jerusalem falls, Jesus will come for the kingdom.

We can't stop it from happening, but we must finish the harvest, bring as many souls as possible into the Ark of Jesus by preaching the gospel of God's love for us.

 

[Endoscopy]

Brother Endoscopy.

It is not a matter of IF you will understand, only a matter of WHEN you will understand. In this world or the next, you will understand. Try to take a fresh look at what I am saying.




Zech 4:1-14, 6, 11, 14, clearly state that the 2W's are the LITERAL Word of God v 6. The olive trees are part of the vision.

For Zerubbabel vs 7-9, it was confirmation of his intention to rebuild the temple and that God was with Israel.

But what the vision showed was God's blessings (oil of the H.S.) flowing through Israel to all living souls and creation.

The Word of God is Jesus and the Holy Scriptures. But at the time of the writing of the letters of the NT and the Rev. there was still only the OT scriptures, as the NT was not assembled until years after Rev was given.

So the 2W's are literally the Word of God, but what was the Word of God all the time, even until the NT letters were assembled? The OT scriptures. They are the Law and the Prophets.

So the 2W's in Rev. are the same 2 W's in the vision of Zerubbabel, the Law and the Prophets.

The Law and the Prophets are held by Israel and they witness of Jesus and eternal life. The Holy Spirit is witness through them that Jesus is the Creator, the God of Mt Sinai, and the God of Israel. (The gentiles are grafted in.)

Their return to Jerusalem PROVES that the prophecies about them are true.




They are surrounded right now by the 200 mill army. Jerusalem will soon fall to the kings of the east, Iran and it's allies the nations Magog.

It could be only months, or a few years, I don't know, but the day will come.




3 1/2 days. The bodies lay in the streets for 3 1/2 days. When Jerusalem falls to Iran,......soon,.....this will happen in front of you, there will be NO MISTAKING THESE PROPHECIES COMING TRUE BEFORE YOUR EYES, THEN YOU WILL KNOW WITH OUT A DOUBT THAT JESUS IS COMING FOR THE KINGDOM AND THE 7TH/LAST TRUMPET IS ABOUT TO SOUND!




Yes, sending gifts and rejoicing that Israel is dead, never to be a nation again.

Just as Cain killed his brother Able, these nations will kill Israel to prove that they are God's people. The thought is, that if Cain kills Able, then God will have to accept Cain's offering because Able is no more. This is the same thing, when Israel is dead, then only Islam/Satan will be left, and that will prove that Islam is the people of god, and God will have no choice but to accept them and their offerings.

The 2W's are called tormentors Rev 11:10, because by their existence as God's people, they are pointing out sin and the true God.



Everything IS in place. When Iran is in Jerusalem, there is only 3 1/2 days left to get in the Ark of Jesus before this planet ends in fire.




Iran may destroy them before it ever happens. The battle of Armageddon has already begun.




So, they are building the temple, to welcome the Antichrist? Who would support such a thing?

The entire context of the Dan. 9 passage shows the coming of Jesus for His ministry and the dest of Jeru in 70 ad.

To pull the AoD out of that context and make the AoD a future event from 70 ad is to disregard the context of the time line.

Caesar/BoR is the iron legs/toes Antichrist. (no gap)

Keep in mind that Daniel states it is a closed book until the end times. So speculating about what it means is futile.

I reject your view of end times. For starters no one is attacking Israel now. That time is not yet.

No temple no abomination of desecration. Oops. That's in Revelation.

I don't hear about armies gathering on the Meggido plain. I went to Israel several times and once went to the hill that overlooked that plain. It was an archaeological dig site that was excavating several layers including Solomons stables. There was a sign stating that the battle of Armageddon would take place in plain below.

 

[abcdef]

Brother Endoscopy,

Keep in mind that Daniel states it is a closed book until the end times. So speculating about what it means is futile.

Paul states that he was in the last days in Heb 1:2. We are still in the last days.

The scroll in Dan 12, is opened by Jesus as the scroll of the 7 seals. It has been revealed since that time. But the time line related to times past and future was not understood until the restoration of Jerusalem and the 6th trumpet.

I reject your view of end times. For starters no one is attacking Israel now. That time is not yet.

But they are attacking Israel now, and Israel is attacking them.

Some are expecting that the battle will be sudden and short.

But the conflict has gone on since Israel began to be restored, 1945/8 roughly.

This battle may go on for years and intensify slowly until the final battle in the valley and Jerusalem.

When the final conflict of the battle takes place in the valley, Israel will lose. Then it will only be a matter of days.

No temple no abomination of desecration

The context of the Dan.9 passage shows Jesus' ministry and the dest of 70 ad. To take the AoD out of context and place it 2000 years in the future disregards the context.


.

Oops. That's in Revelation.

What is in Rev that you are refering to?

I don't hear about armies gathering on the Meggido plain.

Not yet, but they are assembling, growing stronger. The day is coming.

I went to Israel several times and once went to the hill that overlooked that plain. It was an archaeological dig site that was excavating several layers including Solomons stables. There was a sign stating that the battle of Armageddon would take place in plain below.

Wow, that sounds like a really good time. When you see the battle on TV, you will have a good understanding.

 

[Endoscopy]

Brother Endoscopy,



Paul states that he was in the last days in Heb 1:2. We are still in the last days.

The scroll in Dan 12, is opened by Jesus as the scroll of the 7 seals. It has been revealed since that time. But the time line related to times past and future was not understood until the restoration of Jerusalem and the 6th trumpet.




But they are attacking Israel now, and Israel is attacking them.

Some are expecting that the battle will be sudden and short.

But the conflict has gone on since Israel began to be restored, 1945/8 roughly.

This battle may go on for years and intensify slowly until the final battle in the valley and Jerusalem.

When the final conflict of the battle takes place in the valley, Israel will lose. Then it will only be a matter of days.




The context of the Dan.9 passage shows Jesus' ministry and the dest of 70 ad. To take the AoD out of context and place it 2000 years in the future disregards the context.


.

What is in Rev that you are refering to?




Not yet, but they are assembling, growing stronger. The day is coming.




Wow, that sounds like a really good time. When you see the battle on TV, you will have a good understanding.

It is obvious to the casual observer that you are acting like a fool with this post. The battle of Armageddon will have many nations involved. Not just the surrounding Muslims. Names mentioned are Gog and Magog from the North. Possibly Russia since lately they have been aligning themselves with Iran who vows to destroy IsraeI along with the other Muslim countries. Look at a world map and what countries lie to the North. They point to a verse in the Koran that states the trees will point out to them the last living Jew to be killed by them. The Muslim countries for several years tried to attack with the avowed aim of pushing the Jews into the sea and kill them there. They failed and then reverted to terrorism. Not just against Israel but any country allied with it. That's why they attack the US and other countries.

 

[abcdef]

It is obvious to the casual observer that you are acting like a fool with this post.

Matt 5:22

This is meant to be understood by Christians,casual observers, not so much. The worldly won't understand anyway.

The battle of Armageddon will have many nations involved. Not just the surrounding Muslims. Names mentioned are Gog and Magog from the North. Possibly Russia since lately they have been aligning themselves with Iran who vows to destroy IsraeI along with the other Muslim countries. Look at a world map and what countries lie to the North. They point to a verse in the Koran that states the trees will point out to them the last living Jew to be killed by them. The Muslim countries for several years tried to attack with the avowed aim of pushing the Jews into the sea and kill them there. They failed and then reverted to terrorism. Not just against Israel but any country allied with it. That's why they attack the US and other countries.

I told you that it wasn't just Iran, that it was Russia, Syria, and others, did you not read that part?

Read your own words, they should tell you that Israel and Jerusalem are about to fall.

It may be years, maybe months, the nations are in position and are attacking Israel.

You may be thinking that it is not full scale conflict, not yet, but it will be soon.

 

[tanakh]

There are 4 seperate Biblical views of eschatology for a reasre. End times scripture is filled with symbolism. Daniel even states that the meaning will be hidden until the end. Of course there are those who believe they have the answer. I read in magazines and small booklets that these people who write them say they cracked the meaning and the end is soon. Now we have one posted this because God spoke to him and personally informed him. He claims May is the month. Only 3 months to see another failure. I have lost count of the number of times I have heard this before.

You are right in saying that the bible is filled with symbolism. The symbols are consistent throughout and Revelation contains more than any other book. The problem is that people either don't bother to read the whole Bible or they come to Revelation with pre conceived ideas obtained through books preachers or other sources and try to fit passages to match those ideas. If people payed less attention to what is happening on the news and read the Bible properly much of the mystery surrounding Revelation would be dispelled. The title of Revelation means an unveiling. God gave it to us so that we could understand it throughout all generations. That applies to all the Bible but with Prophecy in particular.

 

[abcdef]

You are right in saying that the bible is filled with symbolism. The symbols are consistent throughout and Revelation contains more than any other book. The problem is that people either don't bother to read the whole Bible or they come to Revelation with pre conceived ideas obtained through books preachers or other sources and try to fit passages to match those ideas. If people payed less attention to what is happening on the news and read the Bible properly much of the mystery surrounding Revelation would be dispelled. The title of Revelation means an unveiling. God gave it to us so that we could understand it throughout all generations. That applies to all the Bible but with Prophecy in particular.

Brother tanakh,

First, I have learned alot from being here on CC. Everyone here seems to know quite a bit of good stuff. I'm always learning something, or I am shown a different point of view that I had not thought of before. Different ideas on scriptures, that are new, and to be tested. What joy it is to learn something new about Jesus and His Word every day.


Next, you are right about the symbolism in the OT scriptures. The NT letters are not fully understood without the OT's basics. I would think that we would agree on much of the symbolism.


So if I could give you, just a few points to think about,

1. The angel in Daniel 12:5-7 says that there will be 3 1/2 times until the power of the holy people is scattered.

This can be the time from Babylon until 70 ad. If it is, then that would show that the 3 1/2 times is far longer than a 3 1/2 year time period. This would be the first 3 1/2 times. The second 3 1/2 times is from 70 ad until Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

2. The iron legs/toes of Daniel 2 are Rome with no gap. Jesus coming at the rapt/resur for the kingdom is the stone striking. This is the same event that is shown at the 7th trumpet Rev 11:15.

----

Look, I understand that this is new and has not ever been heard of before, as far as I know. But it could not be known completely until after Jerusalem was restored to Israel and the 6th trumpet had blown.

The 7 times are the same time period as the statue in Daniel 2, from Babylon until Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad was the half way point in the eyes of God.

 

[PlainWord]

Thanks for the reply. Just thought to mention that there are two main groups of Preterists. One is called full Preterest which as you correctly state believe everything happened in 70AD the others are known as Partial Preterists who do believe that the second coming and the resurrection is yet to happen which I consider to be closer to the truth than anything else I've come across so far.

How can that be? If you acknowledge that the "great tribulation" of Mt 24:21 were the events of 70 AD then how can you dispute that Christ did not return "immediately after" those days? Do you see a 2,000 year gap anywhere?

Also, the disciples related the sign of Christ's coming with the end of the age. Was there an end of the (an) age in 70 AD or not? If not, are we still under the Law? Are we in the same age that the disciples were in? Has Christ freed the captives in Hades yet or are they still down there? You need to come to grips with a few things my good man.

 

[tanakh]

Brother tanakh,

For me, the answer is understanding that Jesus came in 70 ad to destroy Jerusalem, but it wasn't a resurrection coming.

The reasoning is to separate the prophecies about the coming to destroy Jerusalem in 70 ad, and the coming for the kingdom at the rapt/resur., coming soon.

The apostles may have thought that the time line would be similar or shorter than the exile to Babylon and the return.

The time of the gentiles fills in the gap. When the ToG's end, Jerusalem is restored to Israel.

The ToG's are also shown as the 2W's outside the city and the woman in the wilderness in Rev 12.

Jesus came to Jerusalem in AD 70 in the same way as God came to Egypt and Edom. He came in judgement figuratively
speaking he came in clouds that are sometimes used in the Bible as symbols of Gods presence and judgement. The destruction of the Temple and city marked the end of the Old Covenant age. Between Jesus' resurrection and the destruction of the temple there was a period of about forty years which Biblically speaking is the length of a generation. This was a transition period between covenants which gave time for the church to be established and people to repent. That is what Jesus meant when he said that THIS generation would not pass away until all these things take place. Prior to that statement in Matt 23 he berates the Pharisees and warns them that all the blood shed from Adam to Zechariah would fall them. Throughout his ministry he warns Israel in the form of parables what was going to happen to them. At his trial he told the Chief Priest that he would see him coming in the clouds of heaven. To do this Caiaphas will need to be trotting around now if all this was only about the second coming. He also told the women on the way to Calvary not to weep for him but for themselves. A strange thing to say if he was thinking 2000 plus years in advance as we are supposed to believe, by the Left Behind fan club. I do believe in a second coming. Historically it was called Judgement Day when the resurrection takes place and we are all judged hence the name.

 

[tanakh]

How can that be? If you acknowledge that the "great tribulation" of Mt 24:21 were the events of 70 AD then how can you dispute that Christ did not return "immediately after" those days? Do you see a 2,000 year gap anywhere?

Also, the disciples related the sign of Christ's coming with the end of the age. Was there an end of the (an) age in 70 AD or not? If not, are we still under the Law? Are we in the same age that the disciples were in? Has Christ freed the captives in Hades yet or are they still down there? You need to come to grips with a few things my good man.

I'm happy to report that my grips as sure as ever. The age that ended was that of the Old Covenant and its use of a sacrificial system to atone for sin. Christ set up the New Covenant and the Church at his first coming. Both covenants continued for about forty years while the Church was established and that generation had been given time to repent and believe in Christ.
A generation was considered to be forty years which is why Jesus said that generation would not pass away in Matt 24. It was also why he told parables that warned how Israel would be cast aside. In Matt 23 Jesus warned the Pharisees that they would pay for all the blood spilt from Abel to Zechariah and why he could tell Caiphas that he would see the Son of Man coming in Clouds. You may have noticed that Caiphas hasn't been around for some time but in all probability may have been in AD 70 He also told the women not to weep for him but for themselves when he made his way to Calvary. An odd thing to say if the judgement wasn't going to happen for another 2000 plus years. You may have noticed that they havn't been around for a while either.

The judgement in AD70 was not The Last Judgement. It was the same type God used against Edom and Egypt where he is said to come in clouds which are sometimes used to represent Gods presence and judgement. Thats why Caiphas accused Jesus of blasphemy at his trial because he likened himself as God coming in clouds. His statement that he was the Messiah
would not have prompted a charge of Blasphemy alone.

I believe in a second coming and a judgment but many of the details believed by some here have been ''Left Behind''.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Tanahk,

I'm happy to report that my grips as sure as ever. The age that ended was that of the Old Covenant and its use of a sacrificial system to atone for sin

The "end of the age" is defined as being when Christ returns to the earth and establishes his millennial kingdom. He is that Rock cut out of the mountain without human hands that smashes the statue to pieces without leaving a trace and who becomes a huge mountain and fills the whole earth. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is how the Lord is going to accomplish the smashing of the statue. His becoming a "huge mountain that fills the whole earth" is referring to his millennial kingdom. - Daniel 2:31-46

A generation was considered to be forty years which is why Jesus said that generation would not pass away in Matt 24.

This is a terrible misinterpretation of this scripture. The "this generation" was speaking of the one where those signs begin to take place i.e. this generation, the one where those signs begin to take place, shall not pass away until all of these things have completed. By your interpretation, you would have Jesus giving us all of the signs that are to take place leading up to his return and then force them into his generation without any of fulfillment of those signs and no return of Jesus. For when He returns that also will be the beginning of his millennial kingdom.

In short, "this generation" is directly linked to all of those signs that the Lord said would take place. Therefore, whatever generation begins to experience those signs will be the generation that He was speaking of. Regarding the signs, you would also have to include the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

 

[tanakh]

Hello Tanahk,



The "end of the age" is defined as being when Christ returns to the earth and establishes his millennial kingdom. He is that Rock cut out of the mountain without human hands that smashes the statue to pieces without leaving a trace and who becomes a huge mountain and fills the whole earth. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is how the Lord is going to accomplish the smashing of the statue. His becoming a "huge mountain that fills the whole earth" is referring to his millennial kingdom. - Daniel 2:31-46




This is a terrible misinterpretation of this scripture. The "this generation" was speaking of the one where those signs begin to take place i.e. this generation, the one where those signs begin to take place, shall not pass away until all of these things have completed. By your interpretation, you would have Jesus giving us all of the signs that are to take place leading up to his return and then force them into his generation without any of fulfillment of those signs and no return of Jesus. For when He returns that also will be the beginning of his millennial kingdom.

In short, "this generation" is directly linked to all of those signs that the Lord said would take place. Therefore, whatever generation begins to experience those signs will be the generation that He was speaking of. Regarding the signs, you would also have to include the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

This is nonsense. Christs use of the term Generation is always recognized as the that one he is speaking to in every other instance except this one. Your interpretation is as bad as those who insist he meant the Jewish race and you have the nerve to say my interpretation is terrible. Why would he tell the disciples to flee Jerusalem if he meant some other generation?
Why did he tell the Pharisees that the blood shed from Abel to Zechariah would be avenged on them? How was Caiaphas supposed to see him coming in clouds (a symbol of divine judgement) Has he been hanging around for the last 2000 years
Why did he tell the women not to weep for him but themselves? He also predicted that the Temple would be destroyed which prompted the whole conversation. Finally he warned throughout his ministry that the nation would be destroyed by way of parables such as the wicked tenants do you really think he was talking about something that wouldnt happen for another 2000 years? When Pilate passed sentence the crowd called out his blood be on us and our children, In the Jewish war it is estimated that one million Jews were slaughtered and the whole of the Old Covenant sacrificial system came to an end

 

[Ahwatukee]

This is nonsense. Christs use of the term Generation is always recognized as the that one he is speaking to in every other instance except this one.

What is nonsense, is claiming that "this generation" is speaking of the one that Christ was living in and that without any fulfillment of those signs. The generation that the Lord was speaking of is directly related to the appearing of those signs, of which we have no fulfillment for. Those who read "this generation" as being the generation that Christ was speaking from, need to go back to English 101.

"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that He is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

Trees blossoming = Summer is near

Signs taking place = The end of the age is near

No signs = not the generation Christ was speaking of

The bottom line is that, you have no fulfillment of any of those signs that Jesus mentioned. In order for the generation that Christ was speaking about, not only would everything in Matt.24 have had to have taken place, but all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, everything regarding the beasts kingdom and everything in Rev.19:11-21 would have also had to have taken place. The end of the age, is the end of all human government and the establishing of the Lord millennial kingdom. The end of the age, is not referring to the end of the sacrificial system, but to the end of all human government and the establishment of the Lord's.

How was Caiaphas supposed to see him coming in clouds (a symbol of divine judgement) Has he been hanging around for the last 2000 years

You obviously missed my other post to you on this. Jesus said that Caiaphas and those with him would "see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven" which is referring to them seeing the Lord return to the earth to end the age from Sheol/Hades, or was referring to the lineage of Jewish people who would be present when the Lord returned.

The context always determines whether something is to be interpreted as symbolic or literal. The clouds here are referring to literal clouds, for Jesus is also speaking of his arriving on the clouds of heaven in Matt.24:30 and Rev.1:7. Therefore, he is speaking about the literal clouds of the sky and not figurative representing divine judgment.

 

[PlainWord]

tanakh,

My comments weren't addressed at you, but since you responded, allow me to retort, LOL.

I'm happy to report that my grips as sure as ever. The age that ended was that of the Old Covenant and its use of a sacrificial system to atone for sin. Christ set up the New Covenant and the Church at his first coming. Both covenants continued for about forty years while the Church was established and that generation had been given time to repent and believe in Christ.

So, we agree there was a 40 year overlap between the last age and our age from 30-70 AD. The old covenant passed away in 70 AD while the new covenant was confirmed by Christ then His disciples. Here's the problem I need you to address:

“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

The disciples associated the Second Coming with the end of their age, not our age.

1 Cor 10: Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

The judgement in AD70 was not The Last Judgement.

The judgment for us now is after death.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.

At the end of their age in 70, Christ freed the captives. Today we go straight to heaven, with no waiting in Hades.

 

[Deade]

Wow! This thread has been taken over by the preterist and Ahwatukee. Everyone spouting their errors at each other, and nobody coming close to what Jesus will do. Here are the actual events:

You claim Jesus is coming for a secret rapture, and He will be coming into only the air. I see we are still disagreeing. If Jesus comes into the atmosphere, that is still "a coming." There is no secret rapture there are saints dying all during the tribulation.

When Christ comes back the very next time, He will encircle the earth while the asleep in Christ will rise and join Him. Then those that are alive will be changed into incorruptible spirits to join him. Jesus said that no man has ascended to heaven. John 3:13: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

Don't give me a reference to the transfiguration when Jesus appeared with Moses and Elijah. Matt. 17:9: “And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.”

This is an example of a vision. But a vision is just a vision, we should not draw doctrine from them. A vision is an exception to what is literal. All the patriarchs in Hebrews 11 are still waiting to get to heaven. I remind you this was written after the cross. No, Hebrews 12 doesn't prove anyone in heaven. It is just a reference to Zion.

Everyone says that we will have glorified bodies, after our resurrection. I don't agree, we will be spirit. John said: John 4:24: “God is spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth.” and in 1 John 3:2: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is." Sounds like we will be spirits too.

Luke 21:25-27: “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. The sea and the waves roaring; and then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

When Jesus comes back, His countenance will be like the sunrise: glorious!