Not By Works

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ljs

Member
Jan 13, 2018
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443
63
I believe when he says, "zapped into perfection", he is really saying that God inputs obedience into us by the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost then takes over and you become obedient. God kind of shoves your will and agency aside and the Holy Ghost takes over (zapped) and you are forever obedient (perfected).

It is all on God and the His Holy Spirit. There is really no action on your part in this scenerio, other than you have confessed that Jesus is your Savior. Zapped by God to be obedient. Always obedient = perfection.
WOW , just no , thats not how it works at all

We have free will , even once we are saved , we have a choice whether to submit to the Holy Spirit or quench him , scripture talks about this
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
Absolutely, exactly and true!!! ;)

WOW , just no , thats not how it works at all

We have free will , even once we are saved , we have a choice whether to submit to the Holy Spirit or quench him , scripture talks about this
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,022
4,441
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I believe when he says, "zapped into perfection", he is really saying that God inputs obedience into us by the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost then takes over and you become obedient. God kind of shoves your will and agency aside and the Holy Ghost takes over (zapped) and you are forever obedient (perfected).

It is all on God and the His Holy Spirit. There is really no action on your part in this scenerio, other than you have confessed that Jesus is your Savior. Zapped by God to be obedient. Always obedient = perfection.
We are obedient but in ourselves we are not. We are obedient to our faith in Jesus which increases our obedience in our walk.
Sanctification
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I believe when he says, "zapped into perfection", he is really saying that God inputs obedience into us by the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost then takes over and you become obedient. God kind of shoves your will and agency aside and the Holy Ghost takes over (zapped) and you are forever obedient (perfected).

It is all on God and the His Holy Spirit. There is really no action on your part in this scenerio, other than you have confessed that Jesus is your Savior. Zapped by God to be obedient. Always obedient = perfection.
He is mocking people who believe in imputed righteousness. Thats what he means.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,936
29,304
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WOW , just no , thats not how it works at all

We have free will , even once we are saved , we have a choice whether to submit to the Holy Spirit or quench him , scripture talks about this
I prefer the term "self will." :) Clearly it is the self driven will of the natural man that is shown throughout the whole of Scripture as being in rebellion toward/against God. It is them we hope to reach with the good news of the gospel, that they may hear, believe, and be reconciled to our Creator, that they may be born again of the Spirit, and share in the life to come, or they will perish at the end of this age, for the flesh counts for nothing.
 

ljs

Member
Jan 13, 2018
310
443
63
I prefer the term "self will." :) Clearly it is the self driven will of the natural man that is shown throughout the whole of Scripture as being in rebellion toward/against God. It is them we hope to reach with the good news of the gospel, that they may hear, believe, and be reconciled to our Creator, that they may be born again of the Spirit, and share in the life to come, or they will perish at the end of this age, for the flesh counts for nothing.
I am not in rebellion towards God , I am saved , but I admit at times I quench the Holy Spirit still , Im imperfect
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,471
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He is mocking people who believe in imputed righteousness. Thats what he means.
While growing up in the Roman Catholic church, I heard them mock "imputed" righteousness and they taught "imparted" righteousness instead. Justification ended up getting confused with ongoing sanctification in their errant theology which resulted in a false gospel of salvation by faith + works.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,022
4,441
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I am not in rebellion towards God , I am saved , but I admit at times I quench the Holy Spirit still , Im imperfect
I love honesty.
God does as well.
He can deal with an honest person, work in them to conform them to the object of their faith.

That faith being in Jesus.
 
Dec 4, 2017
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I had a feeling I needed to log back in and respond. Without cause as I see it, means just that someone aggravates one just by being present. Nothing really to point to, just that.

Right now, will have to pick this up later with you stunned. Pressing things here at home need strention. Like 2 bird cages to start with. :) later. Probably around 9 or so.
without cause would be like cain, and as believers given over to the Fruits of the Spirit we do not Love as cain loved.
Where envy and strife are the Lord will rebuke the enemy and send the foul birds to flight. Till the day comes they are no longer given any such chance to wander.
after being chained and reserved for destruction.
There will be more said in the victory of our Lord than any other utterence from the corrupted cursed creature that dared tempt mankind away from their Heavenly Father.
 
Jan 25, 2018
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When you say "the sharing here is not of freedom but defeat and disappointment....", what are you saying, I'm not sure I follow you?
What I mean is people share about problems at a very simple level, getting annoyed with people,
frustrated, wanting things to change and reacting in a extreme fashion. They then extend this to
mean they are sinning and worthy of hell. This is not even persecution, their life being on the line,
or problems of starving and whether you steal to stay alive or trust the Lord to provide.

And if I talk of Jesus's love filling my heart and overwhelming me, it is like that is just deception
and emptiness. Or if I share about being set free from fear and restraint, that is delusion because
that could not happen. If I talk about Paul saying to believers you can be free, purified without
a hint of sexual immorality, this is like an impossibility. That is defeat and something I cannot
identify with or know how to relate to. The Lord I know does not walk like these people describe.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
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Reminds me of Calvinism. Though on the one hand they say, yes, repentance and belief in the shed righteous blood of Christ are requisites for salvation, on the other hand they say man plays no part in his salvation. Apparently they do not see the contradiction inherent in their position, or that their theology embraces and promotes a God Who rewards and punishes people for things for which none bear responsibility, all having been ordained by God.
You are right, it does seem like Calvinism. Where God chooses whether you are saved or not and you have nothing to do with the decision. You dont even know until at the last moment. Kind of a funny doctrine to me, but many believe it, so I hope it works for them.
 
Dec 4, 2017
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I prefer the term "self will." :) Clearly it is the self driven will of the natural man that is shown throughout the whole of Scripture as being in rebellion toward/against God. It is them we hope to reach with the good news of the gospel, that they may hear, believe, and be reconciled to our Creator, that they may be born again of the Spirit, and share in the life to come, or they will perish at the end of this age, for the flesh counts for nothing.
Remember that there are many out there that have not confessed with their mouths but their heart are already drawn near to the Lord. These are those the Lord spoke of concerning" When did you Feed me"
The ones who are struggling with their faults or even the pain of suffering for doing what is right. All people need to hear that the Lord of Host has called.

As for those who have corrupted the flesh and turned from natural affection.
They are of their father the liar and are marked by the lust of the eyes.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,936
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You are right, it does seem like Calvinism. Where God chooses whether you are saved or not and you have nothing to do with the decision. You dont even know until at the last moment. Kind of a funny doctrine to me, but many believe it, so I hope it works for them.
Jesus said He would draw ALL men to Himself; Scriptures say He died for the sins of the WHOLE world. But they say, oh, "all" does not mean "all" and "the whole world" only means the elect :eek::p God pursues, He draws, He makes it possible (ALL things are possible with Him AND in Him we live and move and have our being) but at some point, we must make a decision to respond to His call, one way or another.
 
Jan 25, 2018
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I believe when he says, "zapped into perfection", he is really saying that God inputs obedience into us by the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost then takes over and you become obedient. God kind of shoves your will and agency aside and the Holy Ghost takes over (zapped) and you are forever obedient (perfected).

It is all on God and the His Holy Spirit. There is really no action on your part in this scenerio, other than you have confessed that Jesus is your Savior. Zapped by God to be obedient. Always obedient = perfection.

This is a simple idea. Heaven perfect, disciple, overburdened in recurring sin and failure
to a degree people do not regard themselves as holy and pure, only acceptable because
God looks at Christ and not them.

If one accepts this is the lot of a believer, that they fail till they die, one has to believe
in a zapping to make them heavenly. But this is not in scripture.

Now righteousness is reconned to us because of faith, but we are also obedient to
Gods commands. Our obedience is not out of legalism but out of love for the Lord and
others. I have no problem with forgiveness of sins once faith is exercised and the believer
repents of their sins, confesses and believes on the cross.

But the idea a believer is not pure and holy once cleansed is not scriptural.
But the concept that no matter how one behaves God just sees Jesus is beyond counting
faith as righteousness, but a total substitution of Jesus instead of the individual.

Again in this world, conviction for sin disappears, because God does not see the sin.
It is so disfunctional, it is a wolf in sheeps clothing, literally, and God only sees the sheep.
How on earth is this reality and not hypocrisy. I love Jesus because He wanted reality in
people and in us. As a kid this always spoke to me about Jesus.

Now the struggle is how people realise this through communion with Him which to a
degree is a mystery seen only in His people. Praise the Lord
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
While growing up in the Roman Catholic church, I heard them mock "imputed" righteousness and they taught "imparted" righteousness instead. Justification ended up getting confused with ongoing sanctification in their errant theology which resulted in a false gospel of salvation by faith + works.
Sadly, when many left the church in the reformation, they took this flawed gospels with them
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Sadly, certain doctrines get ingrained in people and old habits die hard.

What is sad is on the surface, it sounds good. it sounds Godly, (thats why so many are drawn to it) but look deep, and it is satanic
 
Dec 22, 2017
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Nothing is said about murder here stunned.

5:22
ButG1161IG1473sayG3004unto you,G5213ThatG3754whosoeverG3956is angryG3710with hisG848brotherG80without a causeG1500shall beG2071in dangerG1777of theG3588judgment:G2920andG1161whosoeverG3739 G302shall sayG2036to hisG848brother,G80Raca,G4469shall beG2071in dangerG1777of theG3588council:G4892butG1161whosoeverG3739 G302shall say,G2036Thou fool,G3474shall beG2071in dangerG1777ofG1519hellG1067fire.G4442


I looked at the meanings to see what's being said. The word exasperated stood out. If we are exasperated without a good reason against another, we are in danger of being judged by the law.

But, this came to me and I believe from Holy Spirit. When we are so angry with someone that would be compared to murder, is to speak hateful words about ones character. Or gossip, start rumors in the same evil spirit.

We can murder each other with our words. Especially impressionable children, or sensitive people.
New International Version 1984 1 John 3:15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
 
Jan 25, 2018
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What is the attitude I feel through some peoples sharing?

I am what I am and God is not going to change it or can change it, and to believe
I need to be washed and cleansed within is just too difficult and painful and effort,
it just makes me feel a failure and condemned so it must be satan and not the Lord
telling me the next step of reconciliation.

The danger is people who are at this point believe they know the Lord, rather than
He is still knocking at the door, and they need to open it and let Him in.

Throughout our walk this happens time and again, because it is the road of
sanctification. Now because you are chosen, you will agree and respond in the
end, or else, maybe, you are not what you think you once were. This is always
the issue, is it us who decide where and what needs to be transformed or is it
the Lord who is the Lord of the situation, and we are the servants?

I would suggest those who appear to not even have begun and throw around
condemnation and antagonism so readily, are actually not what they appear at
all. When I came to Jesus, He did not say I was a deceived doomed to hell
individual, He asked me to look at who I was and compare myself to Him.
It was then I was overwhelmed with His power and glory, and how I could
only ever be a vessel and servant, following His will, because without communion
with Him I so so so easily got lost.

So this is all I ask of you, listen to Jesus and His word. "Be Holy because He is Holy."
 
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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,936
29,304
113
What is the attitude I feel through some peoples sharing?

I am what I am and God is not going to change it or can change it, and to believe
I need to be washed and cleansed within is just too difficult and painful and effort,
it just makes me feel a failure and condemned so it must be satan and not the Lord
telling me the next step of reconciliation.

The danger is people who are at this point believe they know the Lord, rather than
He is still knocking at the door, and they need to open it and let Him in.

Throughout our walk this happens time and again, because it is the road of
sanctification. Now because you are chosen, you will agree and respond in the
end, or else, maybe, you are not what you think you once were. This is always
the issue, is it us who decide where and what needs to be transformed or is it
the Lord who is the Lord of the situation, and we are the servants?

I would suggest those who appear to not even have begun and throw around
condemnation and antagonism so readily, are actually not what they appear at
all. When I came to Jesus, He did not say I was a deceived doomed to hell
individual, He asked me to look at who I was and compare myself to Him.
It was then I was overwhelmed with His power and glory, and how I could
only ever be a vessel and servant, following His will, because without communion
with Him I so so so easily got lost.

So this is all I ask of you, listen to Jesus and His word. "Be Holy because He is Holy."
Oh me, oh my, how you elevate yourself.