Not By Works

[LightLoveHope]

What does this mean to you: your righteousness must exceed their righteousness? How do you interpret it?

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:20

For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,
greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.
Mark 7:21-23

Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
Matthew 23:26-28

Then the Lord said to him, "Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness.
You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?
But give what is inside the dish to the poor, and everything will be clean for you.
Luke 11:39-41

The above makes plain what it means to walk with Jesus and what the pharisees were doing.
Which do you think we should do, stay unclean, or get real cleansing from the Lord?

 

[MichaelOwen]

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:20

For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,
greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.
Mark 7:21-23

Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
Matthew 23:26-28

Then the Lord said to him, "Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness.
You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?
But give what is inside the dish to the poor, and everything will be clean for you.
Luke 11:39-41

The above makes plain what it means to walk with Jesus and what the pharisees were doing.
Which do you think we should do, stay unclean, or get real cleansing from the Lord?

We are cleansed the very moment we accept Jesus into our heart as our personal Lord and Savior.

 

[PennEd]

What does this mean to you: your righteousness must exceed their righteousness? How do you interpret it?

This is the ABSOLUTE key to what lies at the heart of this thread.

Jesus offers 2 ways in Matthew 5 to get to the Kingdom of Heaven.

The 1st is by YOUR righteousness EXCEEDING the righteousness of the Pharisees. We tend to see the Pharisees as bad guys. The truth is that many EARNESTLY attempted with GREAT zeal to keep ALL the Law. NOBODY ever got closer to keeping ALL the Law than them. They were PROFESSIONAL Law keepers!

Jesus is saying that you must EXCEED how they kept the Law, then He goes to GREAT lengths to show the impossibility of keeping ALL the Law, by saying that mere thought, like momentary anger equating to murder, or a glance with desire as adultery. And If you fail, then you better pluck out your eye or cut off your arm. That is option ONE to attain eternal life. Living a perfect, sinless life.

Option 2 is this:Matthew 5:Christ Fulfills the Law17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to FULFILL.

I believe Jesus uses this juxtaposition of the "2" ways to Salvation several others times in Scripture.
Notably here:
Luke 18:9-14 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 Also He spoke this parable to some who TRUSTED IN THEMSELVES that THEY were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

And again with the rich young ruler who claimed to have followed ALL the Law since childhood.

You CANNOT fill a cup that is already full. So many people THINK they have the answer. They cannot be born again til their cup is emptied out. THEN the LORD can fill their cups!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We are cleansed the very moment we accept Jesus into our heart as our personal Lord and Savior.

but there is no biblical proof!!

Oh wait,

Titus 3: 5 we have been washed by the HS
1 cor 6, we were once sinners, but now we have been washed by the HS
John 134, Jesus says we were completely washed by the word. but sometimes we need to wipe some dirt off our feet
eph 5, we have been washed by the word
John 3/4/6/ - given eternal life, will never perish.

yeah, I guess there is biblical proof.. Here and MANY other places.

 

[LightLoveHope]

We are cleansed the very moment we accept Jesus into our heart as our personal Lord and Savior.

If this is true, which is true of forgiveness of our sins, believers would live pure
lives immediately they come to faith. This though is not the common experience
so there is more to than this.

Paul when talking to believers says this

Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
2 Corinthians 7:1

This implies we are not purified without the possibility of being defiled, rather it
is something we need to be careful about.

 

[mailmandan]

You CANNOT fill a cup that is already full. So many people THINK they have the answer. They cannot be born again til their cup is emptied out. THEN the LORD can fill their cups!

Amen! Until we get to the end of the creature we will not get to the beginning of the Creator, as we see in the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector (Luke 18:9-14).

 

[gb9]

If this is true, which is true of forgiveness of our sins, believers would live pure
lives immediately they come to faith. This though is not the common experience
so there is more to than this.

Paul when talking to believers says this

Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
2 Corinthians 7:1

This implies we are not purified without the possibility of being defiled, rather it
is something we need to be careful about.

if one ( not you apparently ) understands the relationship and the actual meaning of " pure " and " defiled ", then one would understand why we need Christ's imputed Righteousness to cover us, because one sin defiles a soul, and makes one unfit for the Kingdom.

 

[LightLoveHope]

So it appears your answer is we are cleansed when we come to faith, even though
in some peoples eyes we actually stay sinners, lost in sin.

This is where this language of saying things appear clean and sorted but are not, is what
Jesus meant when He criticized the pharisees for not sorting their lives out but only
appearing righteous does not add up.

You appear to be taking it literally, Jesus wants us to appear righteous while being hypocrites.
Unfortunately that to me is just denying the point He is making and what life in Jesus actually
is.

It is like saying you can truly love people while hating them, trying to avoid being hurt, and
not resolving the inner conflicts that drive you crazy. It is just impossible, which is Jesus's
point. If you want to follow God, let Him cleanse you inside through repentance, confession
and faith, and fill you with love and the Holy Spirit so you can walk like He did.


The man who says, "I know him,"
but does not do what he commands is a liar,
and the truth is not in him.
But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know
we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
1 John 2:4-6

It is easier than you realize, because it is impurity and sin in ones heart that holds us back
to which we have an answer in the cross and Jesus.

 

[gb9]

So it appears your answer is we are cleansed we come to faith, even though we actually
stay sinners, lost in sin.

This is where this language of saying things appear clean and sorted but are not, is what
Jesus meant when He criticized the pharisees for not sorting their lives out but only
appearing righteous.

You appear to be taking it literally, Jesus wants us to appear righteous while being hypocrites.
Unfortunately that to me is just denying the point He is making and what live in Jesus actually
is.

It is like saying you can truly love people while hating them, trying to avoid being hurt, and
not resolving the inner conflicts that drive you crazy. It is just impossible, which is Jesus's
point. If you want to follow God, let Him cleanse you inside through repentance, confession
and faith, and fill you with love and the Holy Spirit so you can walk like He did.


The man who says, "I know him,"
but does not do what he commands is a liar,
and the truth is not in him.
But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know
we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
1 John 2:4-6

It is easier than you realise, because it is impurity and sin in ones heart that holds us back
to which we have an answer in the cross and Jesus.

I say this because words have DEFINITIONS. so, to say one is pure on their own means that one never misses the mark, always upholds the standards, always does good when they know to do so. that is what being sinless is, not a subjective opinion.

 

[LightLoveHope]

if one ( not you apparently ) understands the relationship and the actual meaning of " pure " and " defiled ", then one would understand why we need Christ's imputed Righteousness to cover us, because one sin defiles a soul, and makes one unfit for the Kingdom.

This is where legalism goes nuts.
If when you started riding a bicycle you fell off once disqualified you from
ever riding it, you would never start. If you were told you were counted as
qualified at riding a bicycle before you could, you would say the are crazy.

But this is what you appear to be saying. We are called to walk like Jesus, even
though we know we have much to learn and grow into, yet the failure should be
ignored and acted as if it is not important and God is not worried, we should just
enjoy ourselves and do whatever we want, because there are no consequences
anymore.

The difficulty is consequences for you mean disqualification, but for me means
I have still much to learn and grow into. It is never the steps that matter but
the destination, the crown of glory to be received when we reach heaven.

Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
2 Timothy 4:8

 

[LightLoveHope]

I say this because words have DEFINITIONS. so, to say one is pure on their own means that one never misses the mark, always upholds the standards, always does good when they know to do so. that is what being sinless is, not a subjective opinion.

Greeting gb9,

The problem is with this exchange, is in the past I have missed the mark, stumbled,
yet I repent and walk on. Now you regard as things like the sermon on the mount
as just some ideals, I regard it as objective life and reality.

Man is very fragile, and the boundaries of sanity and suicide and mental illness are
closer than many realize. Jesus is saying if you want to live a life that is safe, secure,
founded on good things and eternity, obey His words. It is not that difficult if you have
been cleansed, which possibly testifies as to the number who are not cleansed even
though they claim to be born again and walking in the Spirit.

 

[gb9]

Greeting gb9,

The problem is with this exchange, is in the past I have missed the mark, stumbled,
yet I repent and walk on. Now you regard as things like the sermon on the mount
as just some ideals, I regard it as objective life and reality.

Man is very fragile, and the boundaries of sanity and suicide and mental illness are
closer than many realize. Jesus is saying if you want to live a life that is safe, secure,
founded on good things and eternity, obey His words. It is not that difficult if you have
been cleansed, which possibly testifies as to the number who are not cleansed even
though they claim to be born again and walking in the Spirit.

but, the standards set fourth in the Sermon on the Mount, do you keep them every day of every week? you either do, or you do not, it's black and white. opinions do not make reality, facts do.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:20

For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,
greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.
Mark 7:21-23

Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
Matthew 23:26-28

Then the Lord said to him, "Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness.
You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?
But give what is inside the dish to the poor, and everything will be clean for you.
Luke 11:39-41

The above makes plain what it means to walk with Jesus and what the pharisees were doing.
Which do you think we should do, stay unclean, or get real cleansing from the Lord?

Stay unclean? No!
I agree with all you've posted here.
It is saying that the pharisees focused on the outside of their cup, taking great care over it and also teaching others this same outward obedience. They were constantly telling others about how they were breaking one or another law on the outside of their cup. They didn't understand the spirit of any of it and so that is why they focused on outward obedience's and the accusing of others based on outward appearances.

But we know that the law is spirit because God is Spirit. And that he is a true Jew who is one inwardly, in his heart. So we know what murder truly is, not what men say it is. And we know what true sabbath rest is, not what men say it is. And we know if the inside is clean, the outside just will be too.

 

[star]

What a circular conversation with some people.

We would never be able to stand in the presence of the Almighty unless we have been "made righteous" through Christ our Lord. Salvation provided by Him is the only way God will accept us and welcome us into His presence. He hates all sin, even just on tiny one.


After salvation, we still can't "work" enough to present ourselves in the presence of the Almighty. If we didn't have that cloak of "righteous" about us, provided for us by Christ, we could never do enough works to be admitted to the Almighty's presence.


Abide in Him is how we "grow" in Him and how we become more of His likeness. Abide in Him is not how we "keep" our salvation, because nothing we can do will ever by good enough.

Praise God for saving our worthless souls and providing us with His Righteousness.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You CANNOT fill a cup that is already full. So many people THINK they have the answer. They cannot be born again til their cup is emptied out. THEN the LORD can fill their cups!

He fills the empty (hungry) with good things but sends the full away...

Not sure I agree that you must be empty to be born again. It is necessary to be born from above and receive the Spirit TO be emptied of all that fills you that is contrary to Jesus...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So it appears your answer is we are cleansed when we come to faith, even though
in some peoples eyes we actually stay sinners, lost in sin.

This is where the disconnect comes in

Saying that one has not yet attained the status of being perfect according to Gods commands, is not the same as saying one is still a sinner who is lost in sin. The sinner has been saved and is no longer lost. but has been found. and is in the process of being made into a new creature which will eventually (when we are in heaven) be a glorified creature totally free from sin and the pain and sufferings sin causes. (this process is called sanctification)

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

How you workers can not comprehend the fact that God has perfected forever (a term called justification, we have been justified FREELY) those he is in the process of growing a person from being a babe in Christ to a spiritually mature elder in Christ, and BOTH of these processes are done NOT BY HUMAN WORK, but by GODS WORK just amazes me,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is where legalism goes nuts.
If when you started riding a bicycle you fell off once disqualified you from
ever riding it, you would never start. If you were told you were counted as
qualified at riding a bicycle before you could, you would say the are crazy.

But this is what you appear to be saying. We are called to walk like Jesus, even
though we know we have much to learn and grow into, yet the failure should be
ignored and acted as if it is not important and God is not worried, we should just
enjoy ourselves and do whatever we want, because there are no consequences
anymore.

Seems we have heard this before. can anyone find it. It was not said by LLH it was said by some one else.

it would be worth finding this same line of reasoning used by another person.

The difficulty is consequences for you mean disqualification, but for me means
I have still much to learn and grow into. It is never the steps that matter but
the destination, the crown of glory to be received when we reach heaven.

Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
2 Timothy 4:8

Learn what a legalist is man, We have been over this before. You may think we do not know, we do.

 

[LightLoveHope]

but, the standards set fourth in the Sermon on the Mount, do you keep them every day of every week? you either do, or you do not, it's black and white. opinions do not make reality, facts do.

For me the sermon on the mount is saying do not nit pick, but take the Lord through
everything you do. It has never been about the points of failure or succeeding like
passing an exam, which is an external thing but you remain the same, it is about becoming
something and somebody different in walking with Jesus, and giving up control or the ability
to withdraw and say, I do not like that. This is what submission means.

It is like passing an exam is about whether you know a subject not how you actually
apply it in the real world. Everything Jesus shared He shared about the heart, and being
real and not contaminated or distorted, or counting the wrong things as more important
than the things of eternity and life.

You want me to say, I am a sinner trying to be righteous, when I am a cleansed believer
learning and being made into a child of the Living God.

It strikes me it is your unbelief in what I am saying that will always lead you to believe I
am a hypocrite trying to make myself righteous. I understand that, but it does not make
it true. And I know the depths of Jesus's teaching.

Do you want happiness and fulfillment in your life? Jesus brings that in walking with Him, Amen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Stay unclean? No!
I agree with all you've posted here.
It is saying that the pharisees focused on the outside of their cup, taking great care over it and also teaching others this same outward obedience. They were constantly telling others about how they were breaking one or another law on the outside of their cup. They didn't understand the spirit of any of it and so that is why they focused on outward obedience's and the accusing of others based on outward appearances.

But we know that the law is spirit because God is Spirit. And that he is a true Jew who is one inwardly, in his heart. So we know what murder truly is, not what men say it is. And we know what true sabbath rest is, not what men say it is. And we know if the inside is clean, the outside just will be too.

You really think that is what Jesus meant when he said our righteousness must exceed that of the pharisees? I mean if this is true, (we could do it) why did Jesus come to die?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What a circular conversation with some people.

We would never be able to stand in the presence of the Almighty unless we have been "made righteous" through Christ our Lord. Salvation provided by Him is the only way God will accept us and welcome us into His presence. He hates all sin, even just on tiny one.


After salvation, we still can't "work" enough to present ourselves in the presence of the Almighty. If we didn't have that cloak of "righteous" about us, provided for us by Christ, we could never do enough works to be admitted to the Almighty's presence.


Abide in Him is how we "grow" in Him and how we become more of His likeness. Abide in Him is not how we "keep" our salvation, because nothing we can do will ever by good enough.

Praise God for saving our worthless souls and providing us with His Righteousness.

Just remember, according to these words. PJ and LLH think you are a legalist!