GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?

[mailmandan]

It is important to challenge major false doctrine.

Teaching that keeping the seventh day Sabbath is binding on Christians under the New Covenant and is absolutely necessary for salvation is a major false doctrine!

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Teaching that keeping the seventh day Sabbath is binding on Christians under the New Covenant and is absolutely necessary for salvation is a major false doctrine!

Brother Dan, thank you for this answer. Can you maybe point me to the verse in the Old Testament where it state this?

 

[Grandpa]

IN CHRIST we should all believe the same thing !!! WHY do people still draw lines between themselves and others ??? christian, gentile, male, female, Jew or whatever....why do people still separate themselves ???
There is only ONE LORD and HE is Lord of the SABBATH, so when we TURN to the LORD why do we still create all these DIVISIONS ??? Is CHRIST divided ?

You, who are attempting to keep a 7th day Sabbath, have not turned to the Lord.

You've turned to the law.

There is One Lord and He gives us Rest from our work at the 10 commandments. He shows us that the Law is spiritual and we don't keep it by our work and our understanding.

Matthew 11:28 [SUP] [/SUP]

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.​

 

[MarcR]

Interesting brother Marc. We also have Jews in our church (a Christian church) and they are kind and friendly with great testimonies.Our Pastor teach us in Hebrew and they even enrolled in his Bible school. We see it as an obedience thing to follow God's instructions.

One more question, was one of the prophesies that the law will fall away?

Matt 5:18
18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
NIV

I believe that the intent of the Law is to make people aware that they can't please God through their own efforts and that they need a savior [namely Yeshua (Jesus)].

I believe that the Law will continue to fulfill this purpose until Jesus' return.

 

[mailmandan]

Brother Dan, thank you for this answer. Can you maybe point me to the verse in the Old Testament where it state this?

I didn't get it from the OT. I got it from SDA teachings.

Seventh-day Adventists teach that the near the end of time the "mark of the best" of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday. Following are the main points of this doctrine:

Adventists identify the union of Roman Catholicism with civil power as the "beast" of Revelation:

"The beast described in Revelation 13:1-10 is the church-state union that dominated the Christian world for many centuries and was described by Paul as the 'man of sin' (2 Thess. 2:2-4) and by Daniel as the 'little horn' (Den. 7:8, 20-25; 8:9-12). The image of the beast represents that form of apostate religion that will be developed when churches having lost the true spirit of the Reformation, shall unite with the state to enforce their teachings on others."

The Catholic Church, in the Dark Ages, changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday, a pagan day of worship.

At the end of time, a conflict will arise between those who worship the beast and his image and those who are the true followers of God. What sets these two groups apart is that one group, the true loyal remnant, keeps Saturday as a holy day, and the other group, the fallen and apostate, keeps Sunday as a holy day.

"One class will advocate a gospel of human devisings and will worship the beast and his image... The other class, in marked contrast, will live by the true gospel and 'keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus' (Rev. 14:9,12)... those who reject God's memorial of creatorship--the Bible Sabbath--choosing to worship and honor Sunday...will receive the mark of the beast."

At the end of time, those who keep Sunday as a holy day will seek to destroy those who keep Saturday as a holy day. They will pass laws against the Sabbath-keepers, eventually passing a death-penalty for those who keep Saturday holy. These laws, prophesied by church prophetess Ellen White, are known to Adventists as the National Sunday Law or Universal Sunday Law:

"Those who obey God will experience the wrath of the dragon (Rev. 12:17) and eventually be threatened with death (Rev. 13:15)." These laws will force all to choose which leader they will follow: the beast or God.

5. Jesus will return to put an end to the conflict, and those who kept Saturday as a holy day will "stand together with the Lamb on Mount Zion" while the Sunday-keepers will "receive the full wrath of God and die."

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Matt 5:18
18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
NIV

I believe that the intent of the Law is to make people aware that they can't please God through their own efforts and that they need a savior [namely Yeshua (Jesus)].

I believe that the Law will continue to fulfill this purpose until Jesus' return.

Thank you brother, but it was like that before our savior was born.

Another question, am I right in saying there is no verse in the Bible stating we are to keep the law for our salvation?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I didn't get it from the OT. I got it from SDA teachings.

Friend, but then you are attacking the SDA not Sabbath keeping.

We try to keep the Sabbath because we want to be obedient to God. We fail many times but we still try to grow in that.

God bless

 

[MarcR]

Thank you brother, but it was like that before our savior was born.

Another question, am I right in saying there is no verse in the Bible stating we are to keep the law for our salvation?

..............ABSOLUTELY

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

..............ABSOLUTELY

So if we do it because we are obedient there should not be an issue?

 

[mailmandan]

Friend, but then you are attacking the SDA not Sabbath keeping.

We try to keep the Sabbath because we want to be obedient to God. We fail many times but we still try to grow in that.

God bless

How exactly do you keep the Sabbath? To "keep the Sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant would involve compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

If Sabbath day observances are still required, so would the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). So no kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). Every man must remain in his place (no traveling) on the sabbath (Exodus 16:29). No trading (Amos 8:5). No marketing (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19).

These were commanded by God to Israel (Exodus 35:1).

If the seventh day Sabbath is still in affect, then why do not the Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person keep a certain law when he keeps only part of it?

If the Sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people.

Who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh day Adventist church? The Government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did under the Old Covenant, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under these Mosaic regulations.

 

[gb9]

Friend, but then you are attacking the SDA not Sabbath keeping.

We try to keep the Sabbath because we want to be obedient to God. We fail many times but we still try to grow in that.

God bless

here is the proof you asked me for elsewhere. one must keep the Sabbath to please God. so, therefore, as lovesabbathforever says, not keeping it is a sin, therefore making one a rebellious sinner who cannot enter the kingdom.

keep talking in doublespeak cult language, we will keep exposing it and proving you wrong. Sabbath was never commanded to gentiles. or believers in Christ.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

here is the proof you asked me for elsewhere. one must keep the Sabbath to please God. so, therefore, as lovesabbathforever says, not keeping it is a sin, therefore making one a rebellious sinner who cannot enter the kingdom.

keep talking in doublespeak cult language, we will keep exposing it and proving you wrong. Sabbath was never commanded to gentiles. or believers in Christ.

"now, why do you lie and say that one must keep the jewish Sabbath to be saved, when the N.T. ( not renewed , new ), does not say so."​

You are placing words in my mouth.

 

[gb9]

"now, why do you lie and say that one must keep the jewish Sabbath to be saved, when the N.T. ( not renewed , new ), does not say so."​

You are placing words in my mouth.

no, I am just filling in the blanks , straightly saying what you and others try to say but not say, doublespeaking.

 

[MarcR]

How exactly do you keep the Sabbath? To "keep the Sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant would involve compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

If Sabbath day observances are still required, so would the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). So no kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). Every man must remain in his place (no traveling) on the sabbath (Exodus 16:29). No trading (Amos 8:5). No marketing (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19).

These were commanded by God to Israel (Exodus 35:1).

If the seventh day Sabbath is still in affect, then why do not the Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person keep a certain law when he keeps only part of it?

If the Sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people.

Who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh day Adventist church? The Government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did under the Old Covenant, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under these Mosaic regulations.

You are absolutely right if you refer to keeping the Sabbath under compulsion of Law.

If one keeps the Sabbath volitionally under grace, then one need only keep that which remains personally meaningful.

 

[Grandpa]

In regards to chapter 7 in Romans. The Christian walk is a battle of the old man vs the new. The old man (the "flesh", the sin nature) still exists, as Paul wrote.

However the beginning of chapter eight should actually be in the same chapter as seven. It is a continuation of Paul's testimony. Paul states he hath been made free from the law of sin and death. Chapter 7 is no longer his testimony. It does not apply because he is no longer in captivity to the law of sin of which was in his members; he is in the Spirit, in Christ!

For Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh and condemned sin in the flesh; His flesh. That the righteousness of the law can be fulfilled in him (us). For Jesus Christ his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. So be healed and go and sin no more.For if after we have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, we are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(1Pe 2:24; 2Pe 2:20)

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me (Paul) free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do (in Paul's mind), in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.(Rom 8:1-4)

Please notice in that there in only no condemnation if we are walking in the Spirit and that Jesus condemned sin; taking it away; nailing it to the cross that the righteousness be fulfilled (completely filled ) in us.
​

In regards to the word fulfilled I would like to add a foot note. It is translated from the Greek word pleroo.
From Mickelson's enhanced Strong's Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries.
G4137 πληρόω pleroo (play-roh'-o) v.
1. to fully, completely fill
2. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow)
3. (figuratively) to fully supply, satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.
Pleroo which is to fully fill; completely fill. This how much of the righteousness of the Law is in us or should be in us who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. Remember what John says? He says, " He that is doing righteousness is righteous even as HE (Jesus) is righteous.

"Even as" is a direct comparison to how Jesus was righteous. So How was Jesus righteous?
By GOD's indwelling Spirit. He says in John 14:10, "...but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."
As Paul wrote, "GOD works in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure."
With man this is impossible; but with GOD all things are possible!


Let’s take a closer look at the word mindas seen in verses 7:23,25; 8:5,6,7

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind(intellect, understanding),and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind (intellect, understanding) I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Why Intellect and understanding parenthesis?
Because it states in Mickelson’s Strong’s enhanced:
G3563 νοῦς nous (nous`) n.
1.
the intellect, i.e. the mind
2.
(by implication) meaning...

From the BDAG lexicon….
a) mind, intellect as the side of life contrasted w. physical existence,
the higher, mental part of a human being that initiates thoughts and plans (Apollonius of Tyana [I A.D.] in Eus., PE 4, 13; Orig., C. Cels. 8, 38, 21; 52, 24; Did., Gen. 57, 26): ὁ νόμος τοῦ νοός (μου) the law of (my) intellect Ro 7:22 v.l., 23. (Opp. σάρξ) τῷ ν. δουλεύειν νόμῳ θεοῦ serve the law of God w.
one’s intellect vs. 25.
b) understanding, mind as faculty of thinking...


Romans 7:23, 25 are referring to an acknowledgement to one’s understanding. Paul says he gets it. His intellect understands and his mind is a slave to it, but it does not help him gain victory over the sin in his flesh.


Now for Rom 8:5, “For they that are after the flesh do mind (entertain, exercise ) the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.”

Why entertain and exercise in parenthesis?

Because Mickelson’ Strong’s affirms:

G5426 φρονέω phroneo (fron-eh'-o) v.
1. to exercise the mind, i.e.
entertain or have a sentiment or opinion
2. (by implication) to be (mentally) disposed (more or less earnestly in a certain direction)
3. (intensively) to interest oneself in (with concern or obedience)
The BDAG states:
1) to have an opinion with regard to someth., think, form/hold an opinion, judge…
2) to give careful consideration to someth., set one’s mind on, be intent on, foll. by the acc. (Brutus, Ep. 14 τὰ σὰ φρ.)….
3) to develop an attitude based on careful thought,
be minded/disposed…


And finally Rom 8:6,7 “For to be carnally minded (inclined, purposed) is death; but to be spiritually minded (inclined, purposed) is life and peace. Because the carnal mind (inclined, purposed) is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”

Why inclined and purpose in parenthesis?

Because Mickelson's work confirms it.

G5427 φρόνημα phronema (fron'-ay-mah) n.
1.
(mental) inclination or purpose…
BDAG:
φρόνημα, ατος, τό (fr. φρήν via φρονέω; Aeschyl., Hdt. et al.; Vett. Val. 109, 2; 2 Macc 7:21; 13:9; Philo, Joseph.; Hippol., Ref. 1, 2, 1 [philosophical: ‘point of view’])
the faculty of fixing one’s mind on someth., way of thinking, mindset...

So if one is entertaining the flesh with their mind. The have made the flesh their purpose. They are in the flesh and they cannot please GOD.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.​

Yes they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Those who are still working at the law in their own understanding do not understand what Christ has done and Is doing. They don't have faith that Christ has finished everything that is needed to finish for Salvation. They think the Lord Jesus only fulfilled a little bit and they must fulfill whatever the Lord Jesus Christ did not.

The bible refutes this thinking over and over. Here are some examples.

2 Corinthians 3:5-9

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; [SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: [SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? [SUP]9 [/SUP]For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

The first thought here is that we are not sufficient in ourselves. Meaning that it is the Lord Jesus Christ we rest in as He is the One who is sufficient. He is the One who works in us to perform His Will.

The second thought that is brought here in verses 6&9 is that the 10 commandments are the ministration of death and condemnation.

Why are the 10 commandments the ministry of death and condemnation? Because (foolish, blind, dumb) people think they have the power to fulfill them by their own work and understanding. But they can't and therefore these very commands condemn them and show their death.

The third thought that is presented in verse 8&9 is that the ministration of the Spirit is the ministration of Righteousness. The letter, the carnal attempt at working at the 10 commandments, brings death.

But coming to Christ and receiving Rest brings life. Not by our work and understanding because our sufficiency is not in ourselves. It is by Christ that we are given the Spirit and Righteousness and Life.

Romans 9:30-32
[SUP]30 [/SUP]What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

​

[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

​

[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Those who are working at the law are not attaining Righteousness.

Galatians 3:10-12
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

​

[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

​

[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Doesn't it give you pause after reading these verses? Or do you twist these verses like you do the others to mean something entirely different for your own convenience?

Galatians 5:1

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

I've heard some legalists say that the yoke of bondage is sin. I think that is just as dumb as the rest of the twisting of scripture that they do. Sin is not a yoke. A yoke is something that causes you to work. Sin comes naturally to the flesh. No need to try really hard to sin. Sin is easy.

But trying to NOT sin. That is hard work. That is a yoke of bondage. Working at the 10 commandments to try and keep from sin is a yoke of bondage. Paul even alludes to this earlier in Galatians 3.

Galatians 3:23

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

What a blessing it is to come to the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Rest and actually understand what scripture is saying. Not because of some kind of superior intellect or discernment. Because the Lord has led us by the hand like small children causing the blind to see and the deaf to hear. Again, not that we are sufficient in ourselves but our sufficiency is in the Lord Jesus Christ.​

​

​

[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]

 

[PS]

I suspect that other fora are worse than this one. If there is no diversity of opinion there would be little to discuss. It is important to challenge major false doctrine.

I think you are right. I just wish this forum was as I remember it 5 years ago. Perhaps I ought to put my tin-foil hat on and just ignore those things that I find upsetting. I just hate it when people bury the truth under their cult teaching. Perhaps it would help if forums had a statement of faith that was upheld by the the moderators.

I haven't checked to see if this forum has a statement of faith. I will try to find it.

 

[Grandpa]

So if we do it because we are obedient there should not be an issue?

IF, you were obedient you would be justified before God.

But you aren't. SO there is in fact an issue.

Galatians 3:10-12

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

You don't do it because you are obedient. You do it because you are deceived. You don't know what Righteousness is. Otherwise, you would know that it doesn't come by your work at the law. You would know that way is futile and that the Lord Jesus Christ has given us a better way.

If you already know that then you make a mockery of Christ by turning from Him and back to your work at the law that doesn't bring you anything but death and condemnation.
​

 

[mailmandan]

You are absolutely right if you refer to keeping the Sabbath under compulsion of Law.

If one keeps the Sabbath volitionally under grace, then one need only keep that which remains personally meaningful.

Certain Sabbatarians (especially SDA's) like to challenge, "find one verse in the Bible that shows the day of worship has been changed from Sabbath to Sunday."

Well, that statement is part of building a straw man and is not the issue. The New Testament makes that a moot point because it says it doesn't matter what day you worship on.

Romans 14:5 "One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind."

Galatians 4:9-11 "But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain."

Colossians 2:16-17 "Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

 

[LoveGodForever]

No mention of any of the Ten Commandments. These are all from the Book of the Law (The Book of Moses). The Ten Commandments are not in question here. According to the context of the chapter Circumcision and the Book of the Law are.

But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For (because) Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
​

(Act 15:20-21)​

A few things should be noted from the above text. First and foremost, the new converts are being commanded to abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.​

These Laws are Dietary health and Moral laws from the Book of the Law (Moses). ​

Second thing to note is verse 21 starts with the word "for". This word means that what comes after it is the reason for what was previously stated.

​

In other words let's not over burden them. Tell them for now to

abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. T​

hey will get the rest, because (for) Moses (the Book of the Law) is read every Sabbath Day in the synagogues where and when they meet
​

If any thing these verses prove they were meeting on and therefore keeping the Sabbath and that some of the Laws from the Book of the Law are still part of a Christian's life through the indwelling Christ.​

Yes well said LB, seems some like to cherry pick scripture to suit their lifestyle to avoid knowing the SIN will keep all who practice it out of God's KINGDOM. Only God's Word is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it.

It is a shame many do not love God's Word or seek to know God's Word for themselves, instead seeking the truth through the word of website, and the teachings and traditions of men over the Word of God.

It is only to the Word of God that we must point all who have ears to hear and eyes to see that there is no salvation outside of the Word of God and seeking Jesus for it through prayer and his Word.

May GOd bless you as you continue in His Word.

 

[LoveGodForever]

You seem to think that God is for those who continue in known unrepentant SIN....
WE speak the words of GOD and if they sound condemming it is GOD who corrects.....have you not figured that out yet ?
So many people think it is WE who are judging when speaking GOD's WORD ! In His great Love God will correct first before final judgement...don't wait to hear the fearful words '' depart from me you who work iniquity' !

Yes good point as well beta, many get offedned from God's Word and sometimes feel condemned by it. Neither do they know that it is God's Spirit pleading with them to put away their SINS so that God can heal them and make them whole. Instead of hearing God's voice and believing and following it. Many turn away from it because it means they will have to give up some SIN they cherish over the Word of God.

This is sad because SIN will keep all whom practice it OUT of God's KINGDOM. The false Gospel that many hold on to here is the same lie that was preached in the Garden of edan spoken by the father of lies. This is the same message spoken by the mainstream preachers of the day that follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

It is SIN that will keep all who follow it out of God's KINGDOM unless peace is found in repentance and seeking God's forgiveness through faith. Many are called but few are chosen.