GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?

laymen · Feb 22, 2018

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using

after the commandments and doctrines of men?

The ordinances spoke of here are the same ones that came by the had of a mediator Moses Gal 3:19 ordained by angels.
That were “added” because of the transmissions to the 10 Commandments. They thought they could build A theoretical fence around the 10 commandments to help them not break the 10 commandments but all they needed was faith. Salvation never came by the law for man, it has always been By faith. Only Christ could save his creation.
Added. Gr. prostithēmi, literally, “to place alongside,” “to append.” The handwriting of ordinance was not placed inside the ark with the 10 Commandments but the out side. Deuteronomy 31:26 Exodus 25:16

GandalfTheWhite · Feb 22, 2018

MarcR said:

Brother, you are more Jewish than many on this site so for you to make this statement (in my view) is a radical response.

I do have a question for you, how many of the disciples and apostiles (including Paul) did not keep the law anymore after they came to know Christ? (I am not talking about animal offerings because we all understand Jesus was the perfect sacrifice)

The Bible teach us that the Jews sat in the seat of Moses but if I sit in the seat of Jesus why would I do anything else than what He and His followers did? That is blasphemy to tell people to not follow the footsteps of Jesus friend.

The disciples led by example and I can guarantee you they kept the law (as good as they could) to the last letter. Not for salvation but obedience.

God bless brother Mark.

Magenta · Feb 22, 2018

GandalfTheWhite said:

Perhaps you need to re-read Acts 15

Here, I'll help you out:

Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”

[SUP]2 [/SUP]This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

[SUP]6 [/SUP]The apostles and elders met to consider this question.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?

[SUP]11 [/SUP]No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
[SUP]12 [/SUP]The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Simon has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]“‘After this I will return
and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,

[SUP]17 [/SUP]that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things’
[SUP]18 [/SUP] things known from long ago.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]“It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]With them they sent the following letter:

The apostles and elders, your brothers,
To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:
Greetings.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul—

[SUP]26 [/SUP]men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing.

[SUP]28 [/SUP]It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:

[SUP]29 [/SUP]You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
Farewell.

LoveGodForever · Feb 22, 2018

Magenta said:

Hello Magenta,

Welcome here. What is your interpretation of Acts 15?

Some people foolishly try and teach that Acts 15 is saying that Gentiles do not need to keep the 10 Commandments. This interpretation disagrees with the rest of the bible.

This chapter has been addressed so many times in this thread yet people still cling on to it as they believe it gives them an excuse to SIN against God.

v1 Is the KEY the CONTEXT is certain Jewish BELIEVERS were teaching that unless the new Gentiles believers were CIRCUMCISED according to the customs of Moses they could NOT be SAVED.

Acts 15 is NOT teaching against the 10 Commandments but against the Mosaic laws and ordinances fulfilled in Christ (Levitical/Ceremonial/Sacrificial)

The council judgement was

v 20, But that we write to them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Why?

v21, For Moses of old time has in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

The Gentile BELIEVERS were to continue learning God's Word on the Sabbath. The scripture is not giving Gentiles a lisence to SIN and break the Commandments of God.

The wages of SIN is death to those that continue in SIN because those doing so reject the GIFT of God's dear son.

Happy to discuss it with you once we hear back from you.

................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

beta · Feb 22, 2018

Katy-follower said:

You seem to think that God is for those who continue in known unrepentant SIN....
WE speak the words of GOD and if they sound condemming it is GOD who corrects.....have you not figured that out yet ?
So many people think it is WE who are judging when speaking GOD's WORD ! In His great Love God will correct first before final judgement...don't wait to hear the fearful words '' depart from me you who work iniquity' !

beta · Feb 22, 2018

MarcR said:

IN CHRIST we should all believe the same thing !!! WHY do people still draw lines between themselves and others ??? christian, gentile, male, female, Jew or whatever....why do people still separate themselves ???
There is only ONE LORD and HE is Lord of the SABBATH, so when we TURN to the LORD why do we still create all these DIVISIONS ??? Is CHRIST divided ?

PS · Feb 22, 2018

I'm going to miss you Magenta, I have a lot of respect for you and I love your pictures.

lightbearer · Feb 22, 2018

Magenta said:

No mention of any of the Ten Commandments. These are all from the Book of the Law (The Book of Moses). The Ten Commandments are not in question here. According to the context of the chapter Circumcision and the Book of the Law are.

But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For (because) Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

(Act 15:20-21)

A few things should be noted from the above text. First and foremost, the new converts are being commanded to abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

These Laws are Dietary health and Moral laws from the Book of the Law (Moses).

Second thing to note is verse 21 starts with the word "for". This word means that what comes after it is the reason for what was previously stated.

In other words let's not over burden them. Tell them for now to

abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. T

hey will get the rest, because (for) Moses (the Book of the Law) is read every Sabbath Day in the synagogues where and when they meet.

If any thing these verses prove they were meeting on and therefore keeping the Sabbath and that some of the Laws from the Book of the Law are still part of a Christian's life through the indwelling Christ.

lightbearer · Feb 22, 2018

MarcR said:

No at least be honest.
You post More trolling nonsense because you can't answer the posts. So rather than give in to the Sprit of GOD and repent you wail and bite and kick at the pricks with accusations and insults.

GandalfTheWhite · Feb 22, 2018

MarcR said:

Do you keep the Sabbath because of your Jewish heritage or because you are obidient to the word of God?

lightbearer · Feb 22, 2018

Endoscopy said:

In regards to chapter 7 in Romans. The Christian walk is a battle of the old man vs the new. The old man (the "flesh", the sin nature) still exists, as Paul wrote.

However the beginning of chapter eight should actually be in the same chapter as seven. It is a continuation of Paul's testimony. Paul states he hath been made free from the law of sin and death. Chapter 7 is no longer his testimony. It does not apply because he is no longer in captivity to the law of sin of which was in his members; he is in the Spirit, in Christ!

For Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh and condemned sin in the flesh; His flesh. That the righteousness of the law can be fulfilled in him (us). For Jesus Christ his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. So be healed and go and sin no more.For if after we have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, we are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(1Pe 2:24; 2Pe 2:20)

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me (Paul) free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do (in Paul's mind), in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.(Rom 8:1-4)

Please notice in that there in only no condemnation if we are walking in the Spirit and that Jesus condemned sin; taking it away; nailing it to the cross that the righteousness be fulfilled (completely filled ) in us.

In regards to the word fulfilled I would like to add a foot note. It is translated from the Greek word pleroo.
From Mickelson's enhanced Strong's Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries.
G4137 πληρόω pleroo (play-roh'-o) v.
1. to fully, completely fill
2. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow)
3. (figuratively) to fully supply, satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.
Pleroo which is to fully fill; completely fill. This how much of the righteousness of the Law is in us or should be in us who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. Remember what John says? He says, " He that is doing righteousness is righteous even as HE (Jesus) is righteous.

"Even as" is a direct comparison to how Jesus was righteous. So How was Jesus righteous?
By GOD's indwelling Spirit. He says in John 14:10, "...but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."
As Paul wrote, "GOD works in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure."
With man this is impossible; but with GOD all things are possible!

Let’s take a closer look at the word mindas seen in verses 7:23,25; 8:5,6,7

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind(intellect, understanding),and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind (intellect, understanding) I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Why Intellect and understanding parenthesis?
Because it states in Mickelson’s Strong’s enhanced:
G3563 νοῦς nous (nous`) n.
1.
the intellect, i.e. the mind
2.
(by implication) meaning...

From the BDAG lexicon….
a) mind, intellect as the side of life contrasted w. physical existence,
the higher, mental part of a human being that initiates thoughts and plans (Apollonius of Tyana [I A.D.] in Eus., PE 4, 13; Orig., C. Cels. 8, 38, 21; 52, 24; Did., Gen. 57, 26): ὁ νόμος τοῦ νοός (μου) the law of (my) intellect Ro 7:22 v.l., 23. (Opp. σάρξ) τῷ ν. δουλεύειν νόμῳ θεοῦ serve the law of God w.
one’s intellect vs. 25.
b) understanding, mind as faculty of thinking...

Romans 7:23, 25 are referring to an acknowledgement to one’s understanding. Paul says he gets it. His intellect understands and his mind is a slave to it, but it does not help him gain victory over the sin in his flesh.

Now for Rom 8:5, “For they that are after the flesh do mind (entertain, exercise ) the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.”

Why entertain and exercise in parenthesis?

Because Mickelson’ Strong’s affirms:

G5426 φρονέω phroneo (fron-eh'-o) v.
1. to exercise the mind, i.e.
entertain or have a sentiment or opinion
2. (by implication) to be (mentally) disposed (more or less earnestly in a certain direction)
3. (intensively) to interest oneself in (with concern or obedience)
The BDAG states:
1) to have an opinion with regard to someth., think, form/hold an opinion, judge…
2) to give careful consideration to someth., set one’s mind on, be intent on, foll. by the acc. (Brutus, Ep. 14 τὰ σὰ φρ.)….
3) to develop an attitude based on careful thought,
be minded/disposed…

And finally Rom 8:6,7 “For to be carnally minded (inclined, purposed) is death; but to be spiritually minded (inclined, purposed) is life and peace. Because the carnal mind (inclined, purposed) is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”

Why inclined and purpose in parenthesis?

Because Mickelson's work confirms it.

G5427 φρόνημα phronema (fron'-ay-mah) n.
1.
(mental) inclination or purpose…
BDAG:
φρόνημα, ατος, τό (fr. φρήν via φρονέω; Aeschyl., Hdt. et al.; Vett. Val. 109, 2; 2 Macc 7:21; 13:9; Philo, Joseph.; Hippol., Ref. 1, 2, 1 [philosophical: ‘point of view’])
the faculty of fixing one’s mind on someth., way of thinking, mindset...

So if one is entertaining the flesh with their mind. The have made the flesh their purpose. They are in the flesh and they cannot please GOD.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

mailmandan · Feb 22, 2018

Magenta said:

Amen Magenta! When the counsel of Acts 15 convened to determine what Gentile Christians must observe, SABBATH KEEPING IS CONSPICUOUSLY ABSENT. Peter exhorts the leadership of the Church not to place the Gentiles under the Law: Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are." Acts 15:10-11.

The final judgment of the Jerusalem Council contains no reference to Sabbath keeping. Circumcision was discussed and deemed unnecessary (vss. 5-6; 19-20). If Sabbath keeping were to be an essential part of the New Covenant relationship with God it would have been mentioned in the discussion because it would have been an unfamiliar practice to the Gentiles. Sabbath keeping was not even discussed because it is not a requirement for New Covenant believers (Colossians 2:16-17).

"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials; that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell." (Acts 15:28-29).

NOTICE that the Holy Spirit told them NOT to lay upon the Gentiles any greater burden than THOSE ESSENTIALS. OBVIOUSLY THE HOLY SPIRIT DID NOT THINK SABBATH KEEPING WAS AN ESSENTIAL.

When the New Testament lists sins, Sabbath breaking is conspicuously ABSENT:

In Mark 7:21-22 13 sins are listed. Jesus did not mention breaking the Sabbath.
In Romans 1:29-32 20 sins are listed and not one of them is Sabbath breaking.
In Galatians 5:19-21 a list of 15 sins are given, but no mention of Sabbath breaking.
In 2 Timothy 3:1-4 there's a list of 18 sins, but not once is Sabbath breaking mentioned!

Why is nowhere taught under the New Covenant that Sabbath keeping MUST be observed?

Why is it that nowhere under the New Covenant is failure to keep the Sabbath day condemned as sin?

If the Sabbath keeping is so important for a disciple of Christ, why was it not mentioned in His sermon on the Mount or in ANY of His teachings?

Why didn't Jesus command Sabbath keeping?

Why didn't any of the Apostles command Sabbath keeping?

Why didn't the Jerusalem counsel command Sabbath keeping or condemn Sabbath breaking? (Acts 15)

With so many Gentiles coming into the Church, that if keeping the Sabbath was so important there would be instruction in the New Testament Epistles somewhere concerning it. There are instructions for them concerning morality, ethics, worship, Church order and family lifestyle. Why would something as important as Sabbath keeping be ignored? Circumcision, which predates the Law and the Sabbath commandment was an issue in the New Testament Church and is addressed repeatedly in the New Testament Epistles and by the Jerusalem Counsel.

lightbearer · Feb 22, 2018

mailmandan said:

No mention of any of the Ten Commandments. These are all from the Book of the Law (The Book of Moses). The Ten Commandments are not in question here. According to the context of the chapter Circumcision and the Book of the Law are.

But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For (because) Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

(Act 15:20-21)

A few things should be noted from the above text. First and foremost, the new converts are being commanded to abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

These Laws are Dietary health and Moral laws from the Book of the Law (Moses).

Second thing to note is verse 21 starts with the word "for". This word means that what comes after it is the reason for what was previously stated.

In other words let's not over burden them. Tell them for now to abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. They will get the rest, because (for) Moses (the Book of the Law) is read every Sabbath Day in the synagogues where and when they meet.

If any thing these verses prove they were meeting on and therefore keeping the Sabbath and that some of the Laws from the Book of the Law are still part of a Christian's life through the indwelling Christ.

mailmandan · Feb 22, 2018

lightbearer said:

THE NINE "MORAL" COMMANDS OF THE 10 COMMANDMENTS ARE REITERATED in the New Testament:

1. To worship the Lord God only (1st commandment): no less than 50 times
2. Idolatry (2nd commandment): condemned 12 times
3. Profanity (3rd commandment): condemned 4 times
4. Honoring parents (5th commandment) is taught 6 times
5. Murder (6th commandment) condemned 6 times
6. Adultery (7th commandment) condemned 12 times
7. Theft (8th commandment) condemned 4 times
8. False Witness (9th commandment) condemned 4 times
9. Covetousness (10th commandment) condemned 9 times

Why is it that keeping the seventh day as Sabbath is not commanded or a failure to keep the Sabbath is condemned as sin once in the New Testament?

You can continue to twist the scriptures all you want, but you are not fooling any genuine believers with your SDA propaganda.

Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day — 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

MarcR · Feb 22, 2018

GandalfTheWhite said:

I don't think any of them kept the Law under compulsion. I think most of them, including Paul, kept elements of the law outwardly to maintain a witness in the Jewish community; but none of them attempted to impose the Law on Gentile believers after the council of Jerusalem.

GandalfTheWhite · Feb 22, 2018

mailmandan said:

I think Mr Spock did not check the Old Testament because God said it is His Sabbath and not for the Jews (or gentiles)

GandalfTheWhite · Feb 22, 2018

MarcR said:

So they kept the law for the show, for the sake of pleasing the Jewish community?

Many Christians follow the teachings of Paul (sit in the seat of Paul). Should we then also put up a show for the Jewish community?

I am asking you again, do you keep the Sabbath because you are a Jew or because you are obidient to the word of God?

MarcR · Feb 22, 2018

GandalfTheWhite said:

I keep the Sabbath so that I can remain active in a Jewish congregation and bring a Messianic perspective to Bible discussions.
I identify myself as a Jew who believes that Yeshua has fulfilled Messianic prophesy. I avoid buzz words like convert which would alient me and compromise my witness.

MarcR · Feb 22, 2018

PS said:

I suspect that other fora are worse than this one. If there is no diversity of opinion there would be little to discuss. It is important to challenge major false doctrine.

GandalfTheWhite · Feb 22, 2018

MarcR said:

Interesting brother Marc. We also have Jews in our church (a Christian church) and they are kind and friendly with great testimonies.Our Pastor teach us in Hebrew and they even enrolled in his Bible school. We see it as an obedience thing to follow God's instructions.

One more question, was one of the prophesies that the law will fall away?

GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?

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