Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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A new heart
There are two different views about the core of a person.
One group believe God gives people an object they did not have before which is their
new spirit/heart which is perfect, that is eternal and what they refer to as the real
identity in Christ, as opposed to what was there before.
Another group believe God purifies our existing heart, and through obedience we
purify ourselves, perfecting the work Christ has done in us through repentance and faith.
This cleansed heart is described as a new heart, a heart filled with the law of God and
His Spirit. This is the same heart as people have before they are saved, just purified.
It is still their true identity, which has now passed from death to life.
So you can quote the same verses but there are two different interpretations which have
two different implications and theologies attached.
Now some simply deny these two views, and claim only one exists, but that is just denying
belief systems for the sake of being closed minded and not being honest about the world of faith.
The reason is so much emotion and commitment is attached to one view, to even recognize
another view is somehow to cause turmoil within, so they shut it off completely and end with
this strange interaction as if only one view exists.
You could say, they are victims of their own belief and their own denial of their past, which has
too many hurts and issues to face, so must be repressed at all costs.
There are two different views about the core of a person.
One group believe God gives people an object they did not have before which is their
new spirit/heart which is perfect, that is eternal and what they refer to as the real
identity in Christ, as opposed to what was there before.
Another group believe God purifies our existing heart, and through obedience we
purify ourselves, perfecting the work Christ has done in us through repentance and faith.
This cleansed heart is described as a new heart, a heart filled with the law of God and
His Spirit. This is the same heart as people have before they are saved, just purified.
It is still their true identity, which has now passed from death to life.
So you can quote the same verses but there are two different interpretations which have
two different implications and theologies attached.
Now some simply deny these two views, and claim only one exists, but that is just denying
belief systems for the sake of being closed minded and not being honest about the world of faith.
The reason is so much emotion and commitment is attached to one view, to even recognize
another view is somehow to cause turmoil within, so they shut it off completely and end with
this strange interaction as if only one view exists.
You could say, they are victims of their own belief and their own denial of their past, which has
too many hurts and issues to face, so must be repressed at all costs.
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Samuel 12:24, “Only fear [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and you shall serve Him in truth with all your heart, for consider what marvels He has done for you."[/FONT]
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Mat 16:24-27, “Then [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]said to His taught ones, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his stake, and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it. For what is a man profited if he gains all the world, and loses his own life? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his life? For the Son of Aḏam is going to come in the esteem of His Father with His messengers, and then He shall reward each according to his works.” [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 12:3-5, “For consider Him who endured such opposition from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and faint in your lives. You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. And you have forgotten the appeal which speaks to you as to sons, “My son, do not despise the discipline of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], nor faint when you are reproved by Him,"
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 25:31-46, "And when the Son of Aḏam comes in His esteem, and all the set-apart messengers with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His esteem. And all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the Sovereign shall say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the reign prepared for you from the foundation of the world, for I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you came to Me. Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry and we fed You, or thirsty and gave You to drink? And when did we see You a stranger and took You in, or naked and clothed You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and we came to You? And the Sovereign shall answer and say to them, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me. He shall then also say to those on the left hand, ‘Go away from Me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his messengers, for I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, was naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ Then they also shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not serve You? Then He shall answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life."
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 12:26, “If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me. And where I am, there My servant also shall be. If anyone serves Me, the Father shall value him.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Samuel 12:24, “Only fear [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and you shall serve Him in truth with all your heart, for consider what marvels He has done for you."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
Mat 16:24-27, “Then [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]said to His taught ones, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his stake, and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it. For what is a man profited if he gains all the world, and loses his own life? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his life? For the Son of Aḏam is going to come in the esteem of His Father with His messengers, and then He shall reward each according to his works.” [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 12:3-5, “For consider Him who endured such opposition from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and faint in your lives. You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. And you have forgotten the appeal which speaks to you as to sons, “My son, do not despise the discipline of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], nor faint when you are reproved by Him,"
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 25:31-46, "And when the Son of Aḏam comes in His esteem, and all the set-apart messengers with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His esteem. And all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the Sovereign shall say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the reign prepared for you from the foundation of the world, for I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you came to Me. Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry and we fed You, or thirsty and gave You to drink? And when did we see You a stranger and took You in, or naked and clothed You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and we came to You? And the Sovereign shall answer and say to them, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me. He shall then also say to those on the left hand, ‘Go away from Me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his messengers, for I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, was naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ Then they also shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not serve You? Then He shall answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life."
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 12:26, “If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me. And where I am, there My servant also shall be. If anyone serves Me, the Father shall value him.”[/FONT]
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"this guy just rambles about nothing"
How can any believer say purity and Holiness are nothing, if literally without walking
in these things we will never enter heaven?
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thess 4:7
These are not my words but Gods.
Jesus called us to work at our salvation, to press on and endure, but it is like arriving
and resting is everything for some people.
How can any believer say purity and Holiness are nothing, if literally without walking
in these things we will never enter heaven?
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thess 4:7
These are not my words but Gods.
Jesus called us to work at our salvation, to press on and endure, but it is like arriving
and resting is everything for some people.
It's very simple. We after our salvation will desire/want/do good works for the furtherance of God's plan for mankind. Not because we "have" to nor for appearance sake but good works will just be a part of our Christian walk. The bottom line for me at least is the motive/reason for doing good works. That motive should be to be the Hands and Feet and Eyes and Voice of God Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth.
see, the words purity and holy and blameless and sinless have definitions. meaning. so, if one says these, then one should be willing to discuss the meaning. if one thinks one does not sin, then that person should be willing to discuss what sin is.
so, if you wonder why some say you ramble, the reason is simple- claims made, words used, definitions ignored. meanings ignored.
so, if you wonder why some say you ramble, the reason is simple- claims made, words used, definitions ignored. meanings ignored.
I have to be honest. I believe Jesus changes us, but not in when we get to heaven
but today, here and now. I have seen it happen in people and experienced it myself.
Now the cross conquering sin and setting sinners free, this is Christs everlasting power.
Love has no bounds and through the Holy Spirit is the eternal miracle in our hearts.
Taking a sinner and turning them into a child of God is amazing. Heaven coming down
to earth is the greatest work Jesus did, and us being able to preach and lead people to
Christ and the freedom this is, is a real privilege.
Leaving sinners bound in sin, defeated, locked down, their hearts defended and frozen
is a gospel with no meaning or power.
The fake legalism, without emotional reality and heart change is equally false, but those
who appear trapped in one extreme appear to have just flipped to 100% the opposite with
the same outcomes. Shocking but true, and very, very aggressive, enough to try and rip ones
head off or probably get out their guns and show you who is boss,
lol
but today, here and now. I have seen it happen in people and experienced it myself.
Now the cross conquering sin and setting sinners free, this is Christs everlasting power.
Love has no bounds and through the Holy Spirit is the eternal miracle in our hearts.
Taking a sinner and turning them into a child of God is amazing. Heaven coming down
to earth is the greatest work Jesus did, and us being able to preach and lead people to
Christ and the freedom this is, is a real privilege.
Leaving sinners bound in sin, defeated, locked down, their hearts defended and frozen
is a gospel with no meaning or power.
The fake legalism, without emotional reality and heart change is equally false, but those
who appear trapped in one extreme appear to have just flipped to 100% the opposite with
the same outcomes. Shocking but true, and very, very aggressive, enough to try and rip ones
head off or probably get out their guns and show you who is boss,
lol
That's how he changes us now, sanctification. The process and walking and growing and begin conformed to the image of Jesus.
Not sure what you mean by the cross conquering sin.
I would say the cross conquered sin.
Not sure what you mean by leaving sinners bound in sin and hearts defended and frozen is a gospel with no meaning of power.
Are you taking about non believers? If so the gospel means nothing.
Sinners who have come to Jesus are not frozen with regards to the Gospel.
Or are you saying those who come to Jesus and acknowledge they sin are actually saying the Gospel had no meaning of power to set them free?
As for your last paragraph I have no idea what you are trying to convey
"see, the words purity and holy and blameless and sinless have definitions. meaning. so, if one says these, then one should be willing to discuss the meaning. if one thinks one does not sin, then that person should be willing to discuss what sin is.
so, if you wonder why some say you ramble, the reason is simple- claims made, words used, definitions ignored. meanings ignored."
I am sorry about the above definition or point.
God convicts our hearts as to purity, holiness, repentance.
The word is like a two edged sword, sent to convict the believer and bring them
to repentance. It is Gods revelation to us is the quiet place, when we rest and
dwell in His presence.
This is the meaning of a new heart upon which Gods law is written.
The things Jesus talks about and the apostles regarding impurity are simple and
obvious.
What this poster wants to imply is their view on these things is the definition, though
in truth by ignoring the law of God, you can invent anything as a reason God rejects
man. And funnily this is exactly what they do do, so conversation becomes very
limited. But even so I am all ears to hear the definition, which is meaningful and
precise and not just a general, missing the mark, or being human, or not being
perfect. These phrases are just created to give a sense of failure, and not
real communion or fellowship with Christ, because these believers never experience
it.
so, if you wonder why some say you ramble, the reason is simple- claims made, words used, definitions ignored. meanings ignored."
I am sorry about the above definition or point.
God convicts our hearts as to purity, holiness, repentance.
The word is like a two edged sword, sent to convict the believer and bring them
to repentance. It is Gods revelation to us is the quiet place, when we rest and
dwell in His presence.
This is the meaning of a new heart upon which Gods law is written.
The things Jesus talks about and the apostles regarding impurity are simple and
obvious.
What this poster wants to imply is their view on these things is the definition, though
in truth by ignoring the law of God, you can invent anything as a reason God rejects
man. And funnily this is exactly what they do do, so conversation becomes very
limited. But even so I am all ears to hear the definition, which is meaningful and
precise and not just a general, missing the mark, or being human, or not being
perfect. These phrases are just created to give a sense of failure, and not
real communion or fellowship with Christ, because these believers never experience
it.
N
just 7 is iffy
He already finished His work
He payed for every sin
by grace through faith He imputed His righteousness to us
we become born again and He places His incorruptible seed in us and we will stand without sin before God
He never has to take on another sin He took them all already....
but ya
other than 7 i think its pretty much legit
He already finished His work
He payed for every sin
by grace through faith He imputed His righteousness to us
we become born again and He places His incorruptible seed in us and we will stand without sin before God
He never has to take on another sin He took them all already....
but ya
other than 7 i think its pretty much legit
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lets just take pure / purity. if I have a glass of water, and you ask me " is this pure, clean water " and I say " yes, it is ", and then you take it, have it tested, and find 3 microscopic things in it, that should not be there, then it is NOT pure. it is almost pure, very good, but, not pure.
so, to say that you walk in purity, without adding the truth that sometimes you stumble, then this is dishonest, untruthful , speaking. because a pure, blameless walk would mean no stumbles. we ( you to ) all stumble. most of us are truthful about it. will you be?
so, to say that you walk in purity, without adding the truth that sometimes you stumble, then this is dishonest, untruthful , speaking. because a pure, blameless walk would mean no stumbles. we ( you to ) all stumble. most of us are truthful about it. will you be?
N
some people will always resist the truth...
it seems like he has serious issues being honest in regards to where hes wrong in his knowledge of scripture
and if he sinned when he falsely accuses
then is shown he was incorrect
then continues to bare false witness...
he wasnt honest last time i layed out his lies in front of him...
also
he makes many strawmen
lol
puts up false beliefs no one agrees with
ties people to them
then tears them down instead of actually anyones personal beliefs on scripture
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Amen to that.
1. Sola scriptura: “Scripture alone”
2. Sola fide: “faith alone”
3. Sola gratia: “grace alone”
4. Solo Christo: “Christ alone”
5. Soli Deo gloria: “to the glory of God alone”
It is by grace we are saved by our placing faith in Jesus and him alone.
I do understand why people try to add to that.
I was one who did for many many years.
Trying to add my works to the finished work of the cross.
Nothing Sola about that.
When we all truly understand what we mean to God, how much he loves us, who we are in Jesus and that he wants a relationship with us then the focus changes.
Works will never save us, relationship with the Father will save us.
Out of which we will bear fruit.
1. Sola scriptura: “Scripture alone”
2. Sola fide: “faith alone”
3. Sola gratia: “grace alone”
4. Solo Christo: “Christ alone”
5. Soli Deo gloria: “to the glory of God alone”
It is by grace we are saved by our placing faith in Jesus and him alone.
I do understand why people try to add to that.
I was one who did for many many years.
Trying to add my works to the finished work of the cross.
Nothing Sola about that.
When we all truly understand what we mean to God, how much he loves us, who we are in Jesus and that he wants a relationship with us then the focus changes.
Works will never save us, relationship with the Father will save us.
Out of which we will bear fruit.
[FONT="]><> [/FONT][FONT="]t[/FONT] [FONT="]<><
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Who believes in ZOMBIES? YOU?
Matthew 5:21-24 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “You have heard that it was said to our ancestors, Do not murder, and whoever murders will be subject to judgment.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But I tell you, everyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Fool!’ will be subject to the Sanhedrin. But whoever says, ‘You moron!’ will be subject to hellfire.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] So if you are offering your gift on the altar, and there you remember that your brother has something against you,
[SUP]24 [/SUP] leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
Now isn't saying " Will your ZOMBIE dogma save you? ", the same as saying "YOU MORON"?
We will be saved by JESUS CHRIST.
Philippians 1:6 (ESV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:4-7 (NIV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, [Rom. 5:5]
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
Our obedience IS NOT PART OF OUR SALVATION, it is a reflection of GOD's LOVE the Holy Spirit put into our hearts.
When are you going to realize that obedience is PART OF OUR LOVE, and that LOVE comes from HIM?
1 John 3:14-18 (NIV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
It is a grievous ERROR, when you try to make it our part of SALVATION. Because it is like YOU are trying to ROB GOD Father and GOD the SON, and GOD the HOLY SPIRIT because it is HE that wants you to believe, when you try to take the GLORY for part of your own SALVATION.
2 Peter 2:20-22, “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Savior יהושע Messiah, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the set-apart Command delivered unto them. For them the proverb has proved true, “A dog returns to his own vomit,” (Pro 26:11) and, “A washed sow returns to her rolling in the mud.”
.
Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
New International Version 1984 1 John 2:1-6 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him IF WE OBEY HIS COMMANDS. The man who says, “I know him,” but DOES NOT DO WHAT HE COMMANDS COMMANDS IS A LIAR, and the TRUTH is NOT IN HIM. But if anyone OBEYS HIS WORDS, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever CLAIMS to live in him MUST WALK as Jesus did.
New International Version 1984 1 John 1:5-7 Walking in the Light This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. IF WE CLAIM to have fellowship with him YET WALK IN THE DARKNESS, we LIE and DO NOT LIVE BY THE TRUTH. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, PURIFIES US from all sin.
Romans 13:11-12 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to WAKE UP FROM YOUR SLUMBER, because our salvation is NEARER NOW than when we FIRST BELIEVED. The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So LET US PUT ASIDE THE DEEDS OF DARKNESS and put on the armor of light.
Ephesians 5:14 for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: “WAKE UP o sleeper, rise from THE DEAD, and CHRIST WILL SHINE ON YOU.”
Revelation 3:2-3 WAKE UP! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; OBEY IT, and REPENT. But IF YOU DO NOT WAKE UP, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
"LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERYONE A LIAR"
Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
New International Version 1984 1 John 2:1-6 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him IF WE OBEY HIS COMMANDS. The man who says, “I know him,” but DOES NOT DO WHAT HE COMMANDS COMMANDS IS A LIAR, and the TRUTH is NOT IN HIM. But if anyone OBEYS HIS WORDS, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever CLAIMS to live in him MUST WALK as Jesus did.
New International Version 1984 1 John 1:5-7 Walking in the Light This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. IF WE CLAIM to have fellowship with him YET WALK IN THE DARKNESS, we LIE and DO NOT LIVE BY THE TRUTH. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, PURIFIES US from all sin.
Romans 13:11-12 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to WAKE UP FROM YOUR SLUMBER, because our salvation is NEARER NOW than when we FIRST BELIEVED. The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So LET US PUT ASIDE THE DEEDS OF DARKNESS and put on the armor of light.
Ephesians 5:14 for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: “WAKE UP o sleeper, rise from THE DEAD, and CHRIST WILL SHINE ON YOU.”
Revelation 3:2-3 WAKE UP! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; OBEY IT, and REPENT. But IF YOU DO NOT WAKE UP, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
"LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERYONE A LIAR"
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