Thank you Know1 for this post and the others you posted after it. They are exactly what I would have written if I had the ability. Very much enjoyed reading each of them. Thank you for being salt and light here. Blessings brother!!
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Thank you Know1 for this post and the others you posted after it. They are exactly what I would have written if I had the ability. Very much enjoyed reading each of them. Thank you for being salt and light here. Blessings brother!!
Such issues are nearly impossible to discuss without a perceived condescension on either side. I will try to minimize that.
Where on Earth did you get the notion that mine, or anybody else here that believes in God's Will be done, NOT man's will be done, don't have their prayers answered?
We just accept the Biblical fact that the answer from God is sometimes NO. But we also understand that He ALWAYS has His Children's best interest at heart. We trust Him.
Wonderful Christian sisters for instance, that had or have breast cancer. They consistently shined the light of Christ in love and Grace, to countless Drs, nurses, patients, and family members. God has used, and continues to use them to bring others to Christ. Both were prayed over to be healed. After nearly a dozen yrs, and untold blessings and converts, one of them went to be with the Lord several yrs ago, dying with a LITERAL smile on her face! The other is doing quite well.
The Lord's Will was done. And how many people had their eternal destiny altered because of these women?
The Lord can and does heal miraculously. The Lord can and does bless financially. The Lord can and does perform all manner of miracles. But ALWAYS for His Glory and purposes and our ultimate good.
If I gave my kids EVERYTHING they THINK want, they would be in deep trouble very quickly. We know this as parents. Don't you think our Heavenly Father KNOWS exactly what's best for HIS children?
Please stop pulling verses out of context and pray the Lord will reveal His true Will for your life. Which is NOT hurting sick, scared, desperate people with the cruel lie that they are not healed because they don't have enough faith.
I'm sorry if the way I say things comes across as patronizing, but I assure you that that is not the case. It's just my thick skin that you are seeing.
From basically two things.
"We just accept the Biblical fact that the answer from God is sometimes NO."
The first would be what you said, not only here in this post but your prior post as well, and second would be what I know about faith and how the kingdom of God operates.
What you have, looks like a "hit and miss" thing with God, while still not knowing what He will do or what the outcome will be.
And as for His will, it looks like you are saying, if you pray for something and it happens, then it was God's will, and if it doesn't, then it wasn't His will for it to be.
I am telling you sir, there is absolutely NO FAITH in that kind of thinking or believing.
As I said before, I say again, if you don't know what the will of God is BEFORE you pray, you will have NO faith in God to answer your prayers with a yes, or give you what you ask for.
Isn't it written that it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God apart from faith?
The only faith you have is that the will of God will be done, and I am telling you that that is not always the case.
There are many things that happen, such as your sinning or falling away, that are not in the will of God.
And just in case you think this to be true, sicknesses and/or diseases are NOT a blessing of and from God.
They are a curse, and should be treated as such. The reason why these curses come on people vary, but they should never be spoken of as a blessing from God, seeing that they are part of the work of the devil, of which Jesus came to destroy by taking the punishment of all sicknesses and diseases by the stripes He bore for us.
My question to you is, where in the bible did you come up with the assumption that sometimes God says no?
It is NOT a biblical fact sir, but an assumption based solely on the fact that most prayer go unanswered, and our failure to receive, or so we think.
Didn't God say that His people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge and perish for a lack of vision?
Now I'm going to ask you something before you start bringing Paul and Timothy into the picture.
You say, sometimes God say yes, and sometimes no.
How do you compare that to a clearly written promise of God in 2 Corinthians?
2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
Which begs the questions, are you in Christ, did God really mean "ALL" as it is written, did you have faith in God to watch over and hasten to perform that promised word, how can you believe God says no, when He so clearly says YES, IN ALL His promises He's made to us who are in Christ Jesus, and what are you using to interpret scripture? Your personal testimonies and experiences, and that of others, or what is written?
Yes, it is wonderful that they were able to accomplish so much with what little they had to work with.
That being that God loves them and they will go to heaven WHEN they die.
Healing is a choice of the believer.
I wasn't talking about spoiling your children, I was talking about teaching them a lesson they would never forget, like the woman who took her unruly daughter to a psycho therapist who believed in the "rebirthing" process. I don't know a whole lot about it but it is kind of like breaking the spirit of a horse so they would be tamed. Only they put a person in some kind of bag, and when the daughter, who was forced in this bag, was screaming that she couldn't breath and that she was dying, they wouldn't let her out until she stopped screaming and stopped trying to get out of the bag that they held her in. When they finally opened the bag, the woman's daughter was dead. It is a sad story, but true.
If God, knowing the end from the beginning, and all that will happen from the start, puts a wasting sickness or disease on a person that He knows will kill them in the end, serves no good purpose, gives no glory to Himself, teaches them nothing, and negates the promises He gave concerning healing.
What is cruel is to strip a person of any faith in God to heal them. What is cruel is to give a person false hope of the same.
It is like playing the lottery. You rarely win, BUT YOU NEVER KNOW WHEN IF YOU WILL. And so they continue HOPING, wishing, and wondering if this time will be it for them.
To me, what is cruel is to call God an unfaithful liar, to do what He said He would do in His word, while making man's experiences and testimonies to be true at the expense of the integrity of God's word/promises.
Yes, it is cruel to tell a person they don't have the faith for their healing, about as much as telling a person that they will go to hell if they don't receive Jesus in their heart. Both are cruel to some degree, but both are also true to some degree as well.
Most indeed do not have the faith for their healing, mainly because they haven't been taught what faith really is or how it works.
What is your understanding of what faith is and how it works? And then apply that understanding to the people desiring God to heal them, when you say, "you never know what God's going to do", or when you pray for the same person saying, "thy will be done lord". That means, you don't know what God is going to do.
Please tell me how there is any faith in statements like that.
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Just calling
No sir, the devil works on me just like He does you. I have fail and fell, as much as everyone else. Maybe even more.
I just don't quit because of my failures, because I know the word and promises of God are true and truth. John said, "if you CONTINUE in my word, you shall know the truth, and then, when you KNOW the truth, the truth itself SHALL MAKE YOU FREE."
And again it is written, "Let us hold fast the profession of our faith WITHOUT WAVERING, for He is FAITHFUL who promised."
If it has to do with a sickness or disease, I don't have to ask if it's God's will to heal someone or myself, I KNOW it is.
If I take my eyes off the word of God and just think about some of the situations in the natural, with the same rationale you use, I can easily get off into doubt.
For me, believing sometimes takes work and effort, because I have to purpose in my heart to keep God's word before my eyes instead of the situation, and I have to continually remind both God and myself of His faithfulness and promises He made to me, and to all who believe. Every promise has a condition and parameters in which it operates, like every natural law.
Your heart will believe what you spend most of your time dwelling on. If it is in the natural course of things, then you will not have the faith necessary for whatever it is you desire of God, but if it is on God's faithfulness to watch over and hasten to perform His word to those who believe, then as Jesus said, "nothing shall be impossible to you", or " all things are possible to him that believes"
If I do nothing, it's easy for me to go off in the natural, so I speak God's word verbally, to keep my attention on Him and His word.
But when I know something is done, or taken care of, without fail, it always comes to pass. Always.
But when I doubt, which has happened many many times, or start hoping and wishing, it rarely come to pass.
I'm like everybody else. I just know when I have faith, and when I am hoping or wishing for something.
One will get you what you ask for and the other won't.
It is the law of faith.
All laws have to work consistently and perpetually, otherwise they would cease to be a law.
The law of gravity is a good example.
The law of faith is the same, for it is forever established in heaven, and the kingdom of heaven rules the kingdom of man, or the natural world.
So if I believe for something based on one of the promises of God, it HAS TO be done. Otherwise it is a lie, and we both know God cannot lie.
Another thing that's very important is, I DON'T MAKE EXCUSES FOR FAILING TO RECEIVE. If I fail to receive, then I look at myself, not God. I don't pacify myself with comforting lies to make myself feel better.
Either the word of God is true or not.
I choose to believe it is, and to stand on that truth, have done all, I fight the good fight of faith and stand.
Praise the Lord Jesus !!!!!
Only following Him is the Way. If we go our own way., we will be lost sheep stuck in the thorns and snaggy brush. We can be eaten alive by the enemy of our souls (the wolf in waiting) when he is successful in leading us away from the truth and into trusting in our own understanding. Thank You Jesus for the gift of the Holy Spirit who will lead us into ALL truth as we go along trusting that we are graciously loved at all times in all places.
Another thing about this is God wants us to have a SURE foundation. He wants us to be walking a life of security and assurance in Him. So much so that He swore by Himself in Hebrews 6 reminding us He is faithful. He never has to prove to us or swear for us! and yet HE DID so we can have a sure Anchor to the soul. Hebrews 6:10-20 And I sure wish the brothers and sisters would read this and lean heavily on the sure foundation that is ours in Christ.
[h=1][SUP]
10 [/SUP]For God is not unrighteous to forget or overlook your labor and the love which you have shown for His name’s sake in ministering to the needs of the saints (His own consecrated people), as you still do.[/h] [SUP]11 [/SUP]But we do [[SUP][a][/SUP]strongly and earnestly] desire for each of you to show the same diligence and sincerity [all the way through] in realizing and enjoying the full assurance and development of [your] hope until the end,
[SUP]
12 [/SUP]In order that you may not grow disinterested and become [spiritual] sluggards, but imitators, behaving as do those who through faith ([SUP][b][/SUP]by their leaning of the entire personality on God in Christ in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness) and by practice of patient endurance and waiting are [now] inheriting the promises.
[SUP]
13 [/SUP]For when God made [His] promise to Abraham, He swore by Himself, since He had no one greater by whom to swear,
[SUP]
14 [/SUP]Saying, Blessing I certainly will bless you and multiplying I will multiply you.
[SUP]
15 [/SUP]And so it was that he [Abraham], having waited long and endured patiently, realized and obtained [in the birth of Isaac as a pledge of what was to come] what God had promised him.
[SUP]
16 [/SUP]Men indeed swear by a greater [than themselves], and with them in all disputes the oath taken for confirmation is final [ending strife].
[SUP]
17 [/SUP]Accordingly God also, in His desire to show more convincingly and beyond doubt to those who were to inherit the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose and plan, intervened (mediated) with an oath.
[SUP]
18 [/SUP]This was so that, by two unchangeable things [His promise and His oath] in which it is impossible for God ever to prove false or deceive us, we who have fled [to Him] for refuge might have mighty indwelling strength and strong encouragement to grasp and hold fast the hope appointed for us and set before [us].
[SUP]
19 [/SUP][Now] we have this [hope] as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul [it cannot slip and it cannot [SUP][c][/SUP]break down under whoever steps out upon it—a hope] that reaches [SUP][d][/SUP]farther and enters into [the very certainty of the Presence] within the veil,
[SUP]
20 [/SUP]Where Jesus has entered in for us [in advance], a Forerunner having become a High Priest forever after the order (with [SUP][e][/SUP]the rank) of Melchizedek.
Praise the Lord Jesus! Thank You for all You have already done and what You are doing and what You will do!
I'll re post the video by Ron Saunders from "Jew and Greek" about the distortions and arguments that are being made concerning the word of faith issues that are often brought up here by many. I like the way Ron Saunders opens each topic with his calm and easy going demeanor giving facts and not feelings. He is very thorough and factual.
Those who move in the realm of emotions and feelings about what they have been through or are going through even now., What their friends went through or are currently going through from their experiences had with organizations that had some word of faith leanings., need to listen with open ears to the facts. Just as all Baptists are not the same., so it is for those of us who hold to some word of faith teachings.
We all have strong feelings about many things in our lives. But all feelings must come under the authority of the truth and be dispensed with if they are based on wrong information. Feelings are not how we are to be lead. We are to be lead by the Holy Spirit in all matters of life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61H...32jzhmmqajfv0ykha0b1w03c010c.1518284047361150
Those who move in the realm of emotions and feelings about what they have been through or are going through even now., What their friends went through or are currently going through from their experiences had with organizations that had some word of faith leanings., need to listen with open ears to the facts. Just as all Baptists are not the same., so it is for those of us who hold to some word of faith teachings.
We all have strong feelings about many things in our lives. But all feelings must come under the authority of the truth and be dispensed with if they are based on wrong information. Feelings are not how we are to be lead. We are to be lead by the Holy Spirit in all matters of life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61H...32jzhmmqajfv0ykha0b1w03c010c.1518284047361150
Praise the Lord Jesus !!!!!What He says He will do! In another thread about speaking in tongues I sort of said the same thing you posted here but in a different way Know1. We know what God tells us in His word is true and we lean on Him and His Word for our whole life. For our minds soundness., for our direction and for our path being made straight.
Only following Him is the Way. If we go our own way., we will be lost sheep stuck in the thorns and snaggy brush. We can be eaten alive by the enemy of our souls (the wolf in waiting) when he is successful in leading us away from the truth and into trusting in our own understanding. Thank You Jesus for the gift of the Holy Spirit who will lead us into ALL truth as we go along trusting that we are graciously loved at all times in all places.
Another thing about this is God wants us to have a SURE foundation. He wants us to be walking a life of security and assurance in Him. So much so that He swore by Himself in Hebrews 6 reminding us He is faithful. He never has to prove to us or swear for us! and yet HE DID so we can have a sure Anchor to the soul. Hebrews 6:10-20 And I sure wish the brothers and sisters would read this and lean heavily on the sure foundation that is ours in Christ.
[SUP]
10 [/SUP]For God is not unrighteous to forget or overlook your labor and the love which you have shown for His name’s sake in ministering to the needs of the saints (His own consecrated people), as you still do.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But we do [[SUP][a][/SUP]strongly and earnestly] desire for each of you to show the same diligence and sincerity [all the way through] in realizing and enjoying the full assurance and development of [your] hope until the end,
[SUP]
12 [/SUP]In order that you may not grow disinterested and become [spiritual] sluggards, but imitators, behaving as do those who through faith ([SUP][b][/SUP]by their leaning of the entire personality on God in Christ in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness) and by practice of patient endurance and waiting are [now] inheriting the promises.
[SUP]
13 [/SUP]For when God made [His] promise to Abraham, He swore by Himself, since He had no one greater by whom to swear,
[SUP]
14 [/SUP]Saying, Blessing I certainly will bless you and multiplying I will multiply you.
[SUP]
15 [/SUP]And so it was that he [Abraham], having waited long and endured patiently, realized and obtained [in the birth of Isaac as a pledge of what was to come] what God had promised him.
[SUP]
16 [/SUP]Men indeed swear by a greater [than themselves], and with them in all disputes the oath taken for confirmation is final [ending strife].
[SUP]
17 [/SUP]Accordingly God also, in His desire to show more convincingly and beyond doubt to those who were to inherit the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose and plan, intervened (mediated) with an oath.
[SUP]
18 [/SUP]This was so that, by two unchangeable things [His promise and His oath] in which it is impossible for God ever to prove false or deceive us, we who have fled [to Him] for refuge might have mighty indwelling strength and strong encouragement to grasp and hold fast the hope appointed for us and set before [us].
[SUP]
19 [/SUP][Now] we have this [hope] as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul [it cannot slip and it cannot [SUP][c][/SUP]break down under whoever steps out upon it—a hope] that reaches [SUP][d][/SUP]farther and enters into [the very certainty of the Presence] within the veil,
[SUP]
20 [/SUP]Where Jesus has entered in for us [in advance], a Forerunner having become a High Priest forever after the order (with [SUP][e][/SUP]the rank) of Melchizedek.
Praise the Lord Jesus! Thank You for all You have already done and what You are doing and what You will do!
Amen, to the Holy Spirit always and forever, leading us and showing us the way, the truth, and the life, that is in Christ Jesus.
You have said repeatedly, we are to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit in our daily lives.
How true that is.
And equally true is the saying, "and the just shall LIVE by faith".
And again, "We that DWELLETH in the secret place of the Most High..."
And again, "Because I have made you Lord, my refuge, even the Most High my HABITATION..."
We are indeed to walk and live out our lives, continually and perpetually in the Spirit and in Christ.
And I would add, anything done contrary to what is written, was NOT done in the Spirit nor were they lead by the Spirit of God.
You always try to lift up and encourage other.
Very Christ like.
Good post too.
My replies are written in blue.
So “but little gods,” which I bolded above. You say “we are gods.” And above that, you say there is God. Now, by my lights you have:
God - that’s one God
little gods - a multitude of gods.
So 1 God + many gods = polytheism.
What we have is 3 beings that make up 1 God, with many sons.
I only said the same thing Jesus said. I just repeated His words.
He was referring to an OT verse that talks about the sons of God.
Again, if Jesus said I am a god, then regardless of what anyone says, I am a god.
As for what kind of god, that I don't know.
I think it has to do with being like Jesus and walking in the power of God through they Holy Ghost.
You have elevated yourself to some kind of godlike status, which is completely the opposite of Biblical Christianity. It is the opposite of the whole Bible! Jesus himself had the entire Jewish establishment after him for saying he was God. They crucified him for saying he was God, because the entire OT is about people who were supposed to worship YHWH, and instead, they worshiped other gods.
I'm not the one who elevated myself.
God is.
Have you ever even read the OT? Because it is all about the unfaithful Israelites, who chased after foreign gods, when God said, “You shall have no other gods before me!” Have you ever read the prophets? They are all about false gods, and false prophets. So, the WoF manages to be both! A bunch of false prophets telling people they are gods, turning from the living God, to call themselves gods. What blasphemy!
I think you are being very dramatic about the whole thing and building this up more than it really is.
I don't turn from God and to myself. I can't tell you how stupid that sounds. I turn to God for ALL things.
As Jesus said, "Ye can do NOTHING apart from or without me".
I can't do anything.
Again as Jesus said, "He (God the Father) doeth the works".
He just does it WHEN I act in faith.
Faith is what?
In God and His word.
As far as being partakers of the divine nature, probably best to look at the whole passage. These kinds of gross errors always coming from ripping verses out of context.
”I can pray this because his divine power has bestowed on us everything necessary for life and godliness through the rich knowledge of the one who called us by his own glory and excellence. 4 Through these things he has bestowed on us his precious and most magnificent promises, so that by means of what was promised you may become partakers of the divine nature, after escaping the worldly corruption that is produced by evil desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith excellence, to excellence, knowledge; 6 to knowledge, self-control; to self-control, perseverance; to perseverance, godliness; 7 to godliness, brotherly affection; to brotherly affection, unselfish love. 8 For if these things are really yours and are continually increasing, they will keep you from becoming ineffective and unproductive in your pursuit of knowing our Lord Jesus Christ more intimately. 9 But concerning the one who lacks such things—he is blind. That is to say, he is nearsighted, since he has forgotten about the cleansing of his past sins. 10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, make every effort to be sure of your calling and election. For by doing this you will never stumble into sin. 11 For thus an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be richly provided for you.” 2 Peter 1:3-11 NET
So, God saves us and gives us a new nature! I agree totally. As born again believers, the Holy Spirit does dwell within us. BUT, that does not make US divine. This is the WoF lie. Look above at the verses I posted in modern English, because I do not understand KJV. We escape worldly corruption produced by evil desire, by being “in Christ.” Absolutely.
I think having Christ in us DOES make us divine, because it is written, "As Jesus is in us, so are we in this world."
Without God in us, we are not divine or godly.
I think what really makes us partakers of Jesus' divine nature is when we walk in the power of God, as Jesus did, our example to follow.
And we do that only through the knowledge of Jesus or His Word.
Then, it adds qualities the Holy Spirit is developing in us. Peter is admonishing believers to use the gifts God has given us, to be changed into different people. Read verses 5-7 for this.
Do you ever have to do things in faith.
Does God ever move you to pray for the sick and EXPECT them to get well?
All I hear you talking about is the change from within, but you never do anything in the power of the Holy Spirit. Like ever.
Then, it says these things (which are the qualities, not some kind of divine godhead!) and continually increasing. Do you know anything about God? He is perfect and complete. We are not!
That's why we need Jesus and the Spirit of God in us.
We ARE complete in Christ.
That alone makes us not gods. And we need to be “continually increasing” so we are not ineffective and unproductive. In what? In knowing our Lord Jesus Christ better.
That alone makes us needy people.
If knowing Jesus better equates to being productive and effective, then I must be a very effectively productive.
Again, all you center on is know and changing within, which is good and we should ask and expect God to do so, but WHERE IS THE POWER TO DO THINGS?
Paul said the kingdom of God is not in word, but in POWER.
Peter ends with a startling comment in verses 10-11. He tells us to be sure of our calling, so we do not stumble, into sin. If we were gods, would that possibility be there? Gods don’t generally stumble and sin. Well, I guess the Roman, Greek and probably Egyptian and Babylonian gods did sin. The stories are rife with gods who lose their powers, get tied up, demoted, because they came against higher gods who defeated them.
The devil is still called the "god of this world", so the argument that gods don't stumble is debunked.
But in fact, those panopolies of gods are not really gods, are they? They are the false gods Isaiah talks about.
"Their land is full of worthless idols;
they worship the product of their own hands,
what their own fingers have fashioned.
9 Men bow down to them in homage,
they lie flat on the ground in worship.
Don’t spare them!
10 Go up into the rocky cliffs,
hide in the ground.
Get away from the dreadful judgment of the Lord,
from his royal splendor!
11 Proud men will be brought low,
arrogant men will be humiliated;
the Lord alone will be exalted
in that day." Isa. 2:8-11
Demonic spirits are false gods because they are liars.
You know something, I can't find "false gods" written anywhere in the bible.
By the way, the word "false" in the OT means, an untruth or lie.
A false vision or prophecy was to say, the vision was not true and the prophecy was a lie.
The same could be said about false Gods.
They are liars.
They worship worthless idols. You have made yourself a worthless idol, by claiming you are a god.
I'm sorry, but how did you come up with these assertions?
How have we made ourselves an idol? By claiming to be what Jesus said I am? And in context, I might add.
I fail to see the connection.
Word of Faith believers are proud men and they will be brought low, arrogant men who will be humiliated.
It really doesn't get more arrogant and proud than for a mere mortal to claim he is a god, based on a verse pulled out of context.
And how are we proud and arrogant?
Again, by repeating what Jesus said?
Still mortal, and yet, still eternal.
We all are eternal being.
It's just a matter of where each of us will spends that eternity. It's either up or down, heaven or hell.
This is the foundational lie of the WoF movement. Because if we are gods, of course we should be able to command things with our mouths, and speak things into existence that were not, as God does.
Then so be it, because that is the way I see it.
At least you know what we are saying, you just have to take off them blinders to be able to see it yourself.
BUT, we are NOT GODS! Not lower case, or upper case! We are mortals, and God has graciously saved us, and made us new "creatures" in Christ. Or a new creation.
even the very word "creatures" tells us we had someone else do the creating, because we are not gods. So, does that mean we suddenly became gods? No, it means we mortals have the power of God dwelling in our lives, to change and grow in character, and to do the works he prepared for us. And those works are NOT commanding things into existence, which only a real God can do.
That's why we depend on and trust in God to do it for us, through His word, because we can't do it ourselves. As I have been stating from the beginning.
However, in many cases, we are the initiators and orchestrator of God's works.
I say again, we ourselves do NOT do the actual works. We trust in the one who said, "If ye shall ask anything in my name, I WILL DO IT".
No, those works are helping the poor, those in prison, those who are hungry, thirsty, and naked. (see Matt 25:31-40) But where is that in the WoF doctrine?
Just because we don't talk it, doesn't mean we don't live it.
I have never heard a WoF person talk about Matt 25. Or the entire book of Isaiah, Jeremiah, in that they were written to return a rebellious and evil generation back to God. Those works are spreading the gospel. Those works are being transformed by the Holy Spirit, finding your gifts and then doing them.
The bible say God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
If Jesus sent His disciple out just to preach the gospel then I would agree with your argument. But that is NOT what He did.
Jesus sent them out to preach AND to "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, and cast out devils".
Why would he stop doing that?
Everything you are describing, a wolf in sheep's clothing can do, while still blending in with the real sheep in the church.
Why do you think the bible says they will have , "form of godliness, but denying the power thereof"?
Isn't that exactly what you have been doing the whole time, except for having the form of godliness?
Then there is this, you write, which is a complete twisting and distortion of a simple verse, whether KJV or a totally modern version.
"having the faith of God, as Jesus stated in verse 22 in the book of Mk."
Are you kidding me? Did you not read the verse you have posted? Mark 11:22? The fact is, this is what the verse says.
"Jesus said to them, “Have faith in God." Mark 11:22 NET
"And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God." Mark 11:22 KJV
Apparently, I read it a little better and closer than you did ma'am.
Because if you had looked at my bible, you would have seen a FOOTNOTE saying, "OR having the faith OF GOD"
It is the same with another verse in the bible concerning where the kingdom of God is.
Jesus said, "...the kingdom of God is WITHIN you."
But a footnote in my bible says, "or AMONG you."
I don't make these things up.
The entire incident of Jesus in verses 22:12-14 & 20-21 is very interesting. First, it is not known whether verses 22-25 are even connected to the fig tree incident. Bibles often put them together.
It's sad that such an intelligent person can't even put 2 and 2 together.
This is not rocket science ma'am. This is very simple stuff.
How can anyone fail to see the connection?
I have to admit, you blew me away with that one.
I suppose if you can't receive the truth, you would not be able to connect the two together. Other than that, I don't know.
I am sorry to say that it is a sad thing that you can't even see the connection between the two. Hard to believe.
Aren't you suppose to be some kind of teacher or pastor?
Second, and please think on this, cursing the fig tree is a destructive act. Throwing a mountain into the sea is a destructive act, and obviously proverbial. I cannot believe that Jesus meant these things literally, although he certainly curses and killed the fig tree. But why?
You're not a tree hugger are you?
Okay, I was just having fun with that one.
Have you read the part where God said if you defile your temple, God will destroy you?
What about those who had communion unworthily? Do you remember what destructive act God did to them?
God is not always about flowers and roses.
As for the tree thing, have you not read parable about the fig tree that bore no fruit after 3 years, how the lord wanted it cut down for that very reason?
What about Jn 15?
What did Jesus say the Father, as the husbandman would do to the branch that bore no fruit.
Jesus said, He would cut it off.
Jesus was offering an "acted" parable showing God's judgement on "unfruitful" Israel. Mark's structuring of this section suggests such an interpretation, and it is supported by the prophetic use of fig trees and their fruit, (especially early or first ripe fruit, which would have been what the fig tree would have on it around Passover, when this takes place), to symbolize the people of God and their obedience.
I'm sure the fig tree is a symbol of something, but what about the words in verses 23 and 24?
Would you care to expound on certain words?
After all, isn't that what this is all about? Believing what is written in Mark 11:23?
That is what Word of Faith is all about, and that is one of the verses that WOF originated or came from.
See:
"I will take away their harvests, says the Lord.
There will be no grapes on their vines.
There will be no figs on their fig trees.
Even the leaves on their trees will wither.
The crops that I gave them will be taken away.’”Jeremiah 8:13 NET
"The Lord showed me two baskets of figs sitting before his temple. This happened after King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon deported Jehoiakim’s son, King Jeconiah of Judah. He deported him and the leaders of Judah, along with the craftsmen and metal workers, and took them to Babylon. 2 One basket had very good-looking figs in it. They looked like those that had ripened early. The other basket had very bad-looking figs in it, so bad they could not be eaten. 3 The Lord said to me, “What do you see, Jeremiah?” I answered, “I see figs. The good ones look very good. But the bad ones look very bad, so bad that they cannot be eaten.”4 The Lord said to me, 5 “I, the Lord, the God of Israel, say: ‘The exiles whom I sent away from here to the land of Babylon are like those good figs. I consider them to be good. 6 I will look after their welfare and will restore them to this land. There I will build them up and will not tear them down. I will plant them firmly in the land and will not uproot them. 7 I will give them the desire to acknowledge that I am the Lord. I will be their God and they will be my people. For they will wholeheartedly return to me.’
8 “I, the Lord, also solemnly assert: ‘King Zedekiah of Judah, his officials, and the people who remain in Jerusalem or who have gone to live in Egypt are like those bad figs. I consider them to be just like those bad figs that are so bad they cannot be eaten. 9 I will bring such disaster on them that all the kingdoms of the earth will be horrified. I will make them an object of reproach, a proverbial example of disaster. I will make them an object of ridicule, an example to be used in curses. That is how they will be remembered wherever I banish them. 10 I will bring war, starvation, and disease on them until they are completely destroyed from the land I gave them and their ancestors.’” Jer. 24:1-10
Other verses include: Hosea 9:10, 16-17; Micah 7:1 and in the NT Luke 13:6-9.
The evidence suggests that Mark and his readers would have had no difficulty in recognizing the symbolism of the unsuccessful search for fruit.
So, think prophet destruction when you read these verses, and that the answer is to have faith in God!
You can't have faith in God if you don't know what His will is or what He will do.
Much more to comment on, but it is very late, and I've written enough!
So “but little gods,” which I bolded above. You say “we are gods.” And above that, you say there is God. Now, by my lights you have:
God - that’s one God
little gods - a multitude of gods.
So 1 God + many gods = polytheism.
What we have is 3 beings that make up 1 God, with many sons.
I only said the same thing Jesus said. I just repeated His words.
He was referring to an OT verse that talks about the sons of God.
Again, if Jesus said I am a god, then regardless of what anyone says, I am a god.
As for what kind of god, that I don't know.
I think it has to do with being like Jesus and walking in the power of God through they Holy Ghost.
You have elevated yourself to some kind of godlike status, which is completely the opposite of Biblical Christianity. It is the opposite of the whole Bible! Jesus himself had the entire Jewish establishment after him for saying he was God. They crucified him for saying he was God, because the entire OT is about people who were supposed to worship YHWH, and instead, they worshiped other gods.
I'm not the one who elevated myself.
God is.
Have you ever even read the OT? Because it is all about the unfaithful Israelites, who chased after foreign gods, when God said, “You shall have no other gods before me!” Have you ever read the prophets? They are all about false gods, and false prophets. So, the WoF manages to be both! A bunch of false prophets telling people they are gods, turning from the living God, to call themselves gods. What blasphemy!
I think you are being very dramatic about the whole thing and building this up more than it really is.
I don't turn from God and to myself. I can't tell you how stupid that sounds. I turn to God for ALL things.
As Jesus said, "Ye can do NOTHING apart from or without me".
I can't do anything.
Again as Jesus said, "He (God the Father) doeth the works".
He just does it WHEN I act in faith.
Faith is what?
In God and His word.
As far as being partakers of the divine nature, probably best to look at the whole passage. These kinds of gross errors always coming from ripping verses out of context.
”I can pray this because his divine power has bestowed on us everything necessary for life and godliness through the rich knowledge of the one who called us by his own glory and excellence. 4 Through these things he has bestowed on us his precious and most magnificent promises, so that by means of what was promised you may become partakers of the divine nature, after escaping the worldly corruption that is produced by evil desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith excellence, to excellence, knowledge; 6 to knowledge, self-control; to self-control, perseverance; to perseverance, godliness; 7 to godliness, brotherly affection; to brotherly affection, unselfish love. 8 For if these things are really yours and are continually increasing, they will keep you from becoming ineffective and unproductive in your pursuit of knowing our Lord Jesus Christ more intimately. 9 But concerning the one who lacks such things—he is blind. That is to say, he is nearsighted, since he has forgotten about the cleansing of his past sins. 10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, make every effort to be sure of your calling and election. For by doing this you will never stumble into sin. 11 For thus an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be richly provided for you.” 2 Peter 1:3-11 NET
So, God saves us and gives us a new nature! I agree totally. As born again believers, the Holy Spirit does dwell within us. BUT, that does not make US divine. This is the WoF lie. Look above at the verses I posted in modern English, because I do not understand KJV. We escape worldly corruption produced by evil desire, by being “in Christ.” Absolutely.
I think having Christ in us DOES make us divine, because it is written, "As Jesus is in us, so are we in this world."
Without God in us, we are not divine or godly.
I think what really makes us partakers of Jesus' divine nature is when we walk in the power of God, as Jesus did, our example to follow.
And we do that only through the knowledge of Jesus or His Word.
Then, it adds qualities the Holy Spirit is developing in us. Peter is admonishing believers to use the gifts God has given us, to be changed into different people. Read verses 5-7 for this.
Do you ever have to do things in faith.
Does God ever move you to pray for the sick and EXPECT them to get well?
All I hear you talking about is the change from within, but you never do anything in the power of the Holy Spirit. Like ever.
Then, it says these things (which are the qualities, not some kind of divine godhead!) and continually increasing. Do you know anything about God? He is perfect and complete. We are not!
That's why we need Jesus and the Spirit of God in us.
We ARE complete in Christ.
That alone makes us not gods. And we need to be “continually increasing” so we are not ineffective and unproductive. In what? In knowing our Lord Jesus Christ better.
That alone makes us needy people.
If knowing Jesus better equates to being productive and effective, then I must be a very effectively productive.
Again, all you center on is know and changing within, which is good and we should ask and expect God to do so, but WHERE IS THE POWER TO DO THINGS?
Paul said the kingdom of God is not in word, but in POWER.
Peter ends with a startling comment in verses 10-11. He tells us to be sure of our calling, so we do not stumble, into sin. If we were gods, would that possibility be there? Gods don’t generally stumble and sin. Well, I guess the Roman, Greek and probably Egyptian and Babylonian gods did sin. The stories are rife with gods who lose their powers, get tied up, demoted, because they came against higher gods who defeated them.
The devil is still called the "god of this world", so the argument that gods don't stumble is debunked.
But in fact, those panopolies of gods are not really gods, are they? They are the false gods Isaiah talks about.
"Their land is full of worthless idols;
they worship the product of their own hands,
what their own fingers have fashioned.
9 Men bow down to them in homage,
they lie flat on the ground in worship.
Don’t spare them!
10 Go up into the rocky cliffs,
hide in the ground.
Get away from the dreadful judgment of the Lord,
from his royal splendor!
11 Proud men will be brought low,
arrogant men will be humiliated;
the Lord alone will be exalted
in that day." Isa. 2:8-11
Demonic spirits are false gods because they are liars.
You know something, I can't find "false gods" written anywhere in the bible.
By the way, the word "false" in the OT means, an untruth or lie.
A false vision or prophecy was to say, the vision was not true and the prophecy was a lie.
The same could be said about false Gods.
They are liars.
They worship worthless idols. You have made yourself a worthless idol, by claiming you are a god.
I'm sorry, but how did you come up with these assertions?
How have we made ourselves an idol? By claiming to be what Jesus said I am? And in context, I might add.
I fail to see the connection.
Word of Faith believers are proud men and they will be brought low, arrogant men who will be humiliated.
It really doesn't get more arrogant and proud than for a mere mortal to claim he is a god, based on a verse pulled out of context.
And how are we proud and arrogant?
Again, by repeating what Jesus said?
Still mortal, and yet, still eternal.
We all are eternal being.
It's just a matter of where each of us will spends that eternity. It's either up or down, heaven or hell.
This is the foundational lie of the WoF movement. Because if we are gods, of course we should be able to command things with our mouths, and speak things into existence that were not, as God does.
Then so be it, because that is the way I see it.
At least you know what we are saying, you just have to take off them blinders to be able to see it yourself.
BUT, we are NOT GODS! Not lower case, or upper case! We are mortals, and God has graciously saved us, and made us new "creatures" in Christ. Or a new creation.
even the very word "creatures" tells us we had someone else do the creating, because we are not gods. So, does that mean we suddenly became gods? No, it means we mortals have the power of God dwelling in our lives, to change and grow in character, and to do the works he prepared for us. And those works are NOT commanding things into existence, which only a real God can do.
That's why we depend on and trust in God to do it for us, through His word, because we can't do it ourselves. As I have been stating from the beginning.
However, in many cases, we are the initiators and orchestrator of God's works.
I say again, we ourselves do NOT do the actual works. We trust in the one who said, "If ye shall ask anything in my name, I WILL DO IT".
No, those works are helping the poor, those in prison, those who are hungry, thirsty, and naked. (see Matt 25:31-40) But where is that in the WoF doctrine?
Just because we don't talk it, doesn't mean we don't live it.
I have never heard a WoF person talk about Matt 25. Or the entire book of Isaiah, Jeremiah, in that they were written to return a rebellious and evil generation back to God. Those works are spreading the gospel. Those works are being transformed by the Holy Spirit, finding your gifts and then doing them.
The bible say God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
If Jesus sent His disciple out just to preach the gospel then I would agree with your argument. But that is NOT what He did.
Jesus sent them out to preach AND to "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, and cast out devils".
Why would he stop doing that?
Everything you are describing, a wolf in sheep's clothing can do, while still blending in with the real sheep in the church.
Why do you think the bible says they will have , "form of godliness, but denying the power thereof"?
Isn't that exactly what you have been doing the whole time, except for having the form of godliness?
Then there is this, you write, which is a complete twisting and distortion of a simple verse, whether KJV or a totally modern version.
"having the faith of God, as Jesus stated in verse 22 in the book of Mk."
Are you kidding me? Did you not read the verse you have posted? Mark 11:22? The fact is, this is what the verse says.
"Jesus said to them, “Have faith in God." Mark 11:22 NET
"And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God." Mark 11:22 KJV
Apparently, I read it a little better and closer than you did ma'am.
Because if you had looked at my bible, you would have seen a FOOTNOTE saying, "OR having the faith OF GOD"
It is the same with another verse in the bible concerning where the kingdom of God is.
Jesus said, "...the kingdom of God is WITHIN you."
But a footnote in my bible says, "or AMONG you."
I don't make these things up.
The entire incident of Jesus in verses 22:12-14 & 20-21 is very interesting. First, it is not known whether verses 22-25 are even connected to the fig tree incident. Bibles often put them together.
It's sad that such an intelligent person can't even put 2 and 2 together.
This is not rocket science ma'am. This is very simple stuff.
How can anyone fail to see the connection?
I have to admit, you blew me away with that one.
I suppose if you can't receive the truth, you would not be able to connect the two together. Other than that, I don't know.
I am sorry to say that it is a sad thing that you can't even see the connection between the two. Hard to believe.
Aren't you suppose to be some kind of teacher or pastor?
Second, and please think on this, cursing the fig tree is a destructive act. Throwing a mountain into the sea is a destructive act, and obviously proverbial. I cannot believe that Jesus meant these things literally, although he certainly curses and killed the fig tree. But why?
You're not a tree hugger are you?
Okay, I was just having fun with that one.
Have you read the part where God said if you defile your temple, God will destroy you?
What about those who had communion unworthily? Do you remember what destructive act God did to them?
God is not always about flowers and roses.
As for the tree thing, have you not read parable about the fig tree that bore no fruit after 3 years, how the lord wanted it cut down for that very reason?
What about Jn 15?
What did Jesus say the Father, as the husbandman would do to the branch that bore no fruit.
Jesus said, He would cut it off.
Jesus was offering an "acted" parable showing God's judgement on "unfruitful" Israel. Mark's structuring of this section suggests such an interpretation, and it is supported by the prophetic use of fig trees and their fruit, (especially early or first ripe fruit, which would have been what the fig tree would have on it around Passover, when this takes place), to symbolize the people of God and their obedience.
I'm sure the fig tree is a symbol of something, but what about the words in verses 23 and 24?
Would you care to expound on certain words?
After all, isn't that what this is all about? Believing what is written in Mark 11:23?
That is what Word of Faith is all about, and that is one of the verses that WOF originated or came from.
See:
"I will take away their harvests, says the Lord.
There will be no grapes on their vines.
There will be no figs on their fig trees.
Even the leaves on their trees will wither.
The crops that I gave them will be taken away.’”Jeremiah 8:13 NET
"The Lord showed me two baskets of figs sitting before his temple. This happened after King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon deported Jehoiakim’s son, King Jeconiah of Judah. He deported him and the leaders of Judah, along with the craftsmen and metal workers, and took them to Babylon. 2 One basket had very good-looking figs in it. They looked like those that had ripened early. The other basket had very bad-looking figs in it, so bad they could not be eaten. 3 The Lord said to me, “What do you see, Jeremiah?” I answered, “I see figs. The good ones look very good. But the bad ones look very bad, so bad that they cannot be eaten.”4 The Lord said to me, 5 “I, the Lord, the God of Israel, say: ‘The exiles whom I sent away from here to the land of Babylon are like those good figs. I consider them to be good. 6 I will look after their welfare and will restore them to this land. There I will build them up and will not tear them down. I will plant them firmly in the land and will not uproot them. 7 I will give them the desire to acknowledge that I am the Lord. I will be their God and they will be my people. For they will wholeheartedly return to me.’
8 “I, the Lord, also solemnly assert: ‘King Zedekiah of Judah, his officials, and the people who remain in Jerusalem or who have gone to live in Egypt are like those bad figs. I consider them to be just like those bad figs that are so bad they cannot be eaten. 9 I will bring such disaster on them that all the kingdoms of the earth will be horrified. I will make them an object of reproach, a proverbial example of disaster. I will make them an object of ridicule, an example to be used in curses. That is how they will be remembered wherever I banish them. 10 I will bring war, starvation, and disease on them until they are completely destroyed from the land I gave them and their ancestors.’” Jer. 24:1-10
Other verses include: Hosea 9:10, 16-17; Micah 7:1 and in the NT Luke 13:6-9.
The evidence suggests that Mark and his readers would have had no difficulty in recognizing the symbolism of the unsuccessful search for fruit.
So, think prophet destruction when you read these verses, and that the answer is to have faith in God!
You can't have faith in God if you don't know what His will is or what He will do.
Much more to comment on, but it is very late, and I've written enough!
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He never said you are born again either, and yet you claim to be.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Jesus said we must be born again but He never said we are gods. Read it:
Jesus replied, “It is written in your own Scriptures that God said to certain leaders of the people, ‘I say, you are gods!’ And you know that the Scriptures cannot be altered. So if those people who received God’s message were called ‘gods,’ why do you call it blasphemy when I say, ‘I am the Son of God’? After all, the Father set me apart and sent me into the world.
John 10:34*-36 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/jhn.10.34-36.NLT
That's correct. And we have a separate thread on the passage where the magistrates of Israel are called "elohim" (translated as "gods" but meaning "mighty ones"). It looks like someone has convinced know1 that he is a "little god". But that is PURE DELUSION.
Good post Know1. Here is another video by Ron Saunders from Jew and Greek on the topic ye are gods. Angela and Nehemiah., you and others should listen to Ron. He is clear and concise on this topic. Be blessed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SjNNAkieqw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SjNNAkieqw
Here is another video on Famous Preachers with Infamous views. Very interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inh9ka4uPQM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inh9ka4uPQM
You are correct sir, Jesus did not say, WE are gods, He said, YE are gods, quoting scripture, referring to the SONS of God in the old testament.
As you know, the scripture Jesus is referring to is Psalms 82 and it is talking about the children or sons of almighty God, calling them gods, as He does in verses 1 and 6.
The Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy, mainly because He said, "I and the Father are one", thereby making Himself to be God.
We are not saying the same thing as Jesus did, the same way He meant.
The whole issue of us calling ourselves gods, comes into play because, in your minds, God's children cannot have or wield ANY power like God, that we CANNOT control anything, and that we CANNOT rule or reign in life OVER situations and circumstances, and that just isn't true.
They don't call the kind of church you attend "dead churches" for nothing.
They are like the faith without works James spoke of. Dead.
You have NO LIVING FAITH, because you have NO WORKS OF FAITH, therefore you have NO POWER to do anything outside the norm. That's why all you center on is the change from withing.
Always the victim, who can do nothing to change the outcome.
Just like babies, totally helpless.
Where is the power of God in your life?
The bible warns the believers to beware of those who have a form of Godliness but deny the power thereof.
Those who believe as you do, constantly fight against and deny the power of God to be in the lives of those who believe, AS THOUGH IT IS A BLASPHEMOUS THING.
How sad.
Haven't you read in 1Jn 4:17, "...as He (Jesus) is, so are we in this world"?
Jesus is The Son of God the Father, we too are sons and daughters of the same.
Jesus is the light of the world, we too are the light of the world.
Jesus is the righteousness of God, we to are the righteousness of God.
Jesus is the power of God, because He is the Word of God, and we too have received this word of power.
Again I say what is written, AS JESUS IS, SO ARE WE.
That is of course, to those who believe.
I have said many time in past posts, that we are not the ones doing the works. God is.
I also said the same as that which is written, that being that the word of God is the power of God.
How were you saved?
By the word of God.
How is anyone healed?
By the word of God.
How do you cast out devils?
By the word of God.
How are your prayers answered?
By the word of God.
What the word of God does, God does.
If you send the word of God, like God Himself does, then the same word sent, does the work or miracle.
THE WORD OF GOD/JESUS, IS THE POWER OF GOD.
We have this word abiding in us.
At the same time, we seek the Holy Spirit's leading and guidance in all matters.
Actually, no one convinced me of anything.
I went to God about it, like I do with everything.
I didn't bother reading anyone's posts on the subject, because I didn't care, until someone asked what I thought about it.
At first, I said I didn't know, because I didn't, until God showed me something the next day while I was meditating on it.
From that point on, I took the side that said we are gods, as it is written.
For the most part, I rely on God to reveal things to me, NOT MAN.
And for the most part, I don't care what others think or say. It's not going to influence me one way or the other, unless they can prove it through the word of God.
The fact remains, no one has said anything that was convincing enough to prove otherwise, with scripture, so I can't budge until it is proven otherwise, because I desire the truth.
The word of God is truth, and the truth will have to be presented to me through that same word.