Not By Works

[Ralph-]

You hit the nail right on the head. That's why Ralph won't address major arguments, disappears, then jumps back in with practically the same posts. Always accusing us as believing grace is a license to sin, when we have refuted that numerous times.

He/she seems to delight in bearing false witness.

If you say that grace makes it so you can live in your old life unchanged and you be saved at the same time you are saying grace is a license to sin. Just because you insist that's not what that's called doesn't mean we can't see that it is.

We see clearly that the new grace doctrine in the church says you can be unchanged and living in your old life and be saved at the same time because salvation is not by works. That is making grace a license to sin.

The mark of God's grace in a person is that they are no longer living in their old life but growing out of it. God's grace is a license to escape the deeds of the flesh, not live in them and still be saved. You do not know this because the church does not teach it. They only teach the 'get out of jail for free' part. And apparently you're okay with it. Itching ears, Budman, itching ears.

 

[Locutus]

 

[Budman]

Hmm....I don't recall sharing my life with you.

You don't have to. You've already admitted you sin. Your problem is you minimize your daily sins, while judging others for sinning. Classic hypocrite. You refuse to acknowledge that even one sin attributed to us will damn us. JUST ONE!

But no.....your daily practice of sinning isn't as bad as someone else's daily sins.

But you can't see that for the humongous log in your eye.

 

[Ralph-]

You contradicted yourself and you can't even see it. Talk about blind.

Don't just yak about it. Show me!

an unconverted sinner can do even more good works than a Christian - fooling people like you who Pharisaical judge by outward appearance.

You do not know what the Spirit led life is then. Most Christians do not, even the genuinely born again ones. It is a lost teaching in the church today.

Here's how we know we are saved, Ralph: "The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God." (Romans 8:16)

But no, with you, it's all "Works! Works! Works!"

The witness of the Spirit is fine, but the Bible is very clear that means nothing (IOW, it's fake) if you do not have the growing, changing life to go with it. In fact, if the Christian does live in their old life they will lose the witness of the Spirit.

You can not just decide to ignore the rest of the counsel of scripture that says your life also testifies to whether or not you are really born again. You can't have one without the other. If all you have is a supposed witness of the Spirit that you are saved, but no life to also witness that you are saved, you don't have the witness of the Spirit you think you have. Don't ignore the WHOLE counsel of scripture.

I've asked you many times, and I'd like an answer: Are you Catholic?

Nope. Never have been, never will be. I do not agree with Catholic doctrine.

And I am not Fran.

 

[ljs]

And we know if we have really done that by if we no longer practice sin. John said that, not me.

If we have " really done that " as you put it , and we live a life of sin , God will chasten us , might even call the person home early , and they would be ashamed at the judgement seat of Christ !
However there salvation is secure the moment they believe . If you wanna believe that its not , then thats on you , and we will just have to agree to disagree on this .

And BTW , I have NEVER been to a Grace teaching Church that preached what you say . They encourage believers to live their life pleasing to the Lord , as we are instructed to do , not to prove our salvation , or add to it , or SHOW it to Jesus to prove that we really had it , but out of LOVE for him , and thankfullness for what he has done for us

 

[Ralph-]

You don't have to. You've already admitted you sin. Your problem is you minimize your daily sins, while judging others for sinning. Classic hypocrite. You refuse to acknowledge that even one sin attributed to us will damn us. JUST ONE!

But no.....your daily practice of sinning isn't as bad as someone else's daily sins.

But you can't see that for the humongous log in your eye.

Your argument is not with me. Don't talk to me about it. Post John's scriptures and explain why HE is wrong. Do it!

John is the one who distinguishes between the sinning of the saved person and the practicing of sin of the unbeliever. You have to show us that he was wrong and that there is no difference.

 

[gb9]

Don't just yak about it. Show me!




You do not know what the Spirit led life is then. Most Christians do not, even the genuinely born again ones. It is a lost teaching in the church today.




The witness of the Spirit is fine, but the Bible is very clear that means nothing (IOW, it's fake) if you do not have the growing, changing life to go with it. In fact, if the Christian does live in their old life they will lose the witness of the Spirit.

You can not just decide to ignore the rest of the counsel of scripture that says your life also testifies to whether or not you are really born again. You can't have one without the other. If all you have is a supposed witness of the Spirit that you are saved, but no life to also witness that you are saved, you don't have the witness of the Spirit you think you have. Don't ignore the WHOLE counsel of scripture.



Nope. Never have been, never will be. I do not agree with Catholic doctrine.

And I am not Fran.

nope, you are not fran, though she was as easy to prove wrong as you are.

it's not your place to judge. there, you have been shown.

 

[joefizz]

That is quite enough Ralph,who are you to determine who is suffering or not suffering?
Being "Saved" doesn't mean we "don't suffer" in fact it's what is part of "Serving God/Jesus" many of us "suffer" from "Conviction" and "Memories" and it's because of such suffering that we seek God/Jesus each day though we do so when he has blessed us greatly,and "suffering" is "different" for us all.
You may see say people like Dcontroversal as "not suffering" but you "don't know" and to be "glad" and "bold" in "telling that we are saved through Jesus and "nothing or noone else" is "right" to do,for who being saved will "clasp their mouth shut"?
Who having the Holy Spirit will not be "convicted" through it?
I tell you as Jesus said concerning Caesar "render unto God what is God's" and in this case "render unto man what is man's" it is not your "God given mission" to "get people to change" so leave such things "to God" speak of Jesus,of course,speak of God,of course,but don't "inflict yourself with suffering" or "others" when it "isn't yours to be doing".
Our main mission as Christians is to...
Spread God's word and tell of our Lord and Saviour Jesus and how that through him one can be saved,our "main suffering" is in the "tough to face truth" that God/Jesus "doesn't need us" we are to be but humble servants yet we have "so little" to actually "do" action wise,sure we can "stress ourselves out" over a sin or simply apologize for a sin but as it is written"he who is born again in Christ is a new creature the old is gone the new is come" so that means "we are new" not needing to "worry about" our "old selves" instead "Trust God/Jesus" and "let him guide us" not "convict ourselves" for after all there is but "one true judge" and we "are not worthy to judge","guiding one's self only leads back to one's self".
Being led of the spirit leads to "righteousness" and "serving God/Jesus humbly".

.................

 

[Budman]

If you say that grace makes it so you can live in your old life unchanged and you be saved at the same time you are saying grace is a license to sin.

Aaaand we're back to you lying yet again.

We see clearly that the new grace doctrine in the church says you can be unchanged and living in your old life and be saved at the same time because salvation is not by works.

Grace is grace. It isn't "new" or "hyper" - get that right.

The old man/nature had us sinning, and still does, Ralph. Our "new life" is the righteousness of Jesus imputed to us. We have now a new man/nature, that convicts us of our sin. The old nature did not do that!

When we sinned, we didn't think a thing about it, because we didn't have the conviction we have now.

The mark of God's grace in a person is that they are no longer living in their old life but growing out of it.

So, you are saying, at some point, you'll grow out of sinning altogether?

 

[Ralph-]

nope, you are not fran, though she was as easy to prove wrong as you are.

it's not place to judge. there, you have been shown.

Hey, all you got to do is take John's scriptures and explain how he was wrong about the person who is still practicing sin is not born again. Don't tell me about it. Post his scriptures and explain how he was wrong. Do it!

 

[Budman]

And I am not Fran.

That was weird. I never asked that.

 

[Budman]

Hey, all you got to do is take John's scriptures and explain how he was wrong about the person who is still practicing sin is not born again. Don't tell me about it. Post his scriptures and explain how he was wrong. Do it!

Post the exact scripture again, Ralph.

 

[Ralph-]

nope, you are not fran, though she was as easy to prove wrong as you are.

it's not your place to judge. there, you have been shown.

The whole letter of 1 John was written so the church would not be deceived by people who claim to be brothers but who are not. And he explains that we know that by how they live. If you are sure he was wrong post his passages and tell us why he's wrong.

 

[gb9]

The whole letter of 1 John was written so the church would not be deceived by people who claim to be brothers but who are not. And he explains that we know that by how they live. If you are sure he was wrong post his passages and tell us why he's wrong.

tell us why you think it is your place to judge when Jesus himself said not to.

 

[dcontroversal]

We know who has been justified by faith apart from works by if they no longer live in and practice sin. John said this, not me.

You need to post what he said and show us how he was wrong and how works do not matter in salvation toward the showing of a person being born again or not.

Originally Posted by dcontroversal
By your WORDS (NOT WORKS) a man shall be JUSTIFIED or CONDEMNED...

You should try it....it "WORKS"

 

[Ralph-]

Post the exact scripture again, Ralph.

Start here if you haven't already addressed this post I composed early this morning while you were posting that I conveniently let time lapse and ignore people's posts. If you already addressed it just point me to it. (Contrary to what you believe I do have a life and I do not spend all my time here.)

Here is the distinction that the Bible makes between sinning, and the sinning that proves you are not saved (the distinction you boldly proclaim the Bible does not make).


Believers do not practice sin:
9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."-1 John 3:9


Believers still sin:
"8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."-1 John 1:8


I know it's important to your doctrine to make no distinction between sinning and living in sin so that it can be claimed that believers can live in their old lives if they choose to and be saved, but we can see for ourselves that is not what the Bible says. John says the person who is born of God sins, but he does not practice sin. But you say there is no difference between sinning and practicing sin. Who do we believe, you or the Bible?

There is no blood covering where there is the practice of sin. The practice of sin is NOT covered under the blood. That person is not born again.

Explain how it is that John says the person who practices sin is not born again while at the same time he tells Christians they sin.

Remember you say there is no difference between sinning and living in sin. So either everybody is not born again (because practicing sin and sinning are exactly identical), or everybody is saved, or saved people can live in sin and still be saved. Obviously, if you insist on the last choice you make John a liar. He plainly says the person who is practicing sin is not born again. You disagree, so explain.

 

[Budman]

Don't just yak about it. Show me!

*sigh* It's like fighting with a two year old.

Okay, you said:

We know who has been justified by faith apart from works by if they no longer live in and practice sin.

What you said was we know we've been justified by faith apart from works, by our WORKS! (the "no longer living in sin" part)

You do not know what the Spirit led life is then. Most Christians do not, even the genuinely born again ones. It is a lost teaching in the church today.

And you've found the "hidden truth" huh, Ralph? You're back to sounding like a cult leader again.

The witness of the Spirit is fine, but.....

Nope. The witness of the Spirit is plenty enough.

 

[Ralph-]

Originally Posted by dcontroversal
By your WORDS (NOT WORKS) a man shall be JUSTIFIED or CONDEMNED...

You should try it....it "WORKS"

My life testifies that I have been justified by faith in Christ apart from works. How about you? I'm guessing no, and that you're just going on the hope that all you have to do is say you believe in Christ and all is good, not knowing that if you are still in the life you had before your confession of Christ you show that your confession of Christ has not resulted in you being saved and becoming a new creation.

Don't argue with me about it. Post John's letters and explain how he is wrong about the person who is still practicing sin is not born again.

 

[Ralph-]

tell us why you think it is your place to judge when Jesus himself said not to.

Man, do you not understand anything I say??????

Read 1 John! If you can't hear me at least hear the word of the Lord right in the pages of your Bible.

 

[Budman]

Start here if you haven't already addressed this post I composed early this morning while you were posting that I conveniently let time lapse and ignore people's posts. If you already addressed it just point me to it. (Contrary to what you believe I do have a life and I do not spend all my time here.)
Explain how it is that John says the person who practices sin is not born again while at the same time he tells Christians they sin.

Remember you say there is no difference between sinning and living in sin. So either everybody is not born again (because practicing sin and sinning are exactly identical), or everybody is saved, or saved people can live in sin and still be saved. Obviously, if you insist on the last choice you make John a liar. He plainly says the person who is practicing sin is not born again. You disagree, so explain.

Oh, for goodness sake! I have addressed this. Ralph. John is talking about the "new man" - the life of Jesus imputed to us. That's why he said in the same verse (and here's the part you keep ignoring) that we will not, nor cannot sin. The nature of Jesus in us (the one we have been judged by, and found not guilty before God) will not, nor can, sin. If John was talking about what you claim, then he contradicts all the other scriptures regarding how believers still sin.

If John meant what you're claiming, then you would not, nor could you, still sin!