NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
All those verses work for us. Pretrib rapture.
The great tribulation of the goats on the last has nothing to do with those who would never come in condemnation. Christ sat in the judgment seat and was declared guilty for my sin. He declared it is finished nothing could hold those who graves were opened or us back other than these temporal bodies of death. He has conquered the second death. There will be no double jeopardy to those in Christ. No crucifying Christ over and over every time we deny him in faith.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The Amil position at least today works the best
 
Last edited:
H

heartofdavid

Guest
If they were saved why were they not allowed in? This is about judgement, not rapture.
They were left behind. Not worthy. They do make it to heaven via martyrdom. Most i would assume refuse the mark
 
H

heartofdavid

Guest
Lets play out your rapture model.
Postribs believe we go completely through the GT,THEN they are caught up in the sky and do a uturn back to earth.

The only thing in common with the plagues is the plagues themselves.
They left egypt alright,INTO THE WILDERNESS.

That is NOT a postrib rapture.
You need some example where they either go to" heaven,"(promise land) or return to "egypt."
^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^
 
H

heartofdavid

Guest
Ps 91 has 2 conditions.
Go back and read it.

Then you will see why those left behind are the foolish virgins.
Like David,they can beg for a stay of judgement. To no avail.
^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^
 
Sep 14, 2017
900
23
0
The Apostles tell us what God thinks. Not what they think as if we could have the faith that comes from hearing God in respect to sinners. That would blaspheme the Holy name by which we are called heavenward.

When you say manipulate does that mean doing the good pleasure of another will? Does not God command us to do His will as he works in us ?
God reveals His will to us, but He doesn't manipulate us to do it, otherwise His perfect will would be done in all of us, & we would have perfect unity.

God does allow lukewarm sluggards to be deluded. God actually sends it.

He sends it to the masses of liberal church goers who cry "Savior", but not "Lord".

They are the Church majority.

New International Version
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

New Living Translation
So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies.

English Standard Version
Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,

Berean Study Bible
For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie,

Berean Literal Bible
And because of this, God will send to them a working of delusion, for them to believe what is false,

New American Standard Bible
For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,


They are so deluded they cannot come back, for they're being prepared for the wrath of God.

That's the real reason there's no peace in the BDF. Delusion reigns here.

One thing we didn't realize with this delusion was that the deluded would unite regardless of their religious affiliations & doctrines.

Watch the big arguments carefully. You will find several different belief systems working together who at one time couldn't agree on anything.

United delusion.
 
Last edited:
Sep 14, 2017
900
23
0
Where does the Word say they ran out? It does not. It says they had no oil.
This is just another case of you and many others changing the Word of God so as to support your belief.
Read what it says.
Somebody hasn't been understanding their Bible.

Matthew 25 1“Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2“Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent. 3“For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps. 5“Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep. 6“But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. 8“The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’

Exegesis at its finest.
 
Aug 23, 2016
31
0
6
I am with you and share the same Sentiments. It has been some time since I visited this sight and I beginning to regret I returned. There is way too much intellectualism and not enough spiritual guidance.
This world is in a mess and it is to some degree displayed on this sight. God is not a subject to be batted around like a football. You either believe what the Spirit teaches you or are you arrogant enough to believe you are more qualified than the Spirit of God. During the many times I have studied the Bible, I have always relied on Gods Spirit to guide my conclusions and it saddens me to observe so many people thrusting their chest out bragging abut their intellect. I have never seen any evidence that there were any PhD's among the Disciples but I get the impression that some of you believe that if you were among them you would have straighten them out. As far as the Tribulation is concerned, I will sigh off withe this advice: if you are ready for the Return of Jesus, does it really matter when He comes? I leave you with this question, If you are a true Child of God, does it make any sense that He would make you suffer through the Great Tribulation. Personally, I dont believe my God would allow me to suffer that event.
 
3

3Scoreand10

Guest
Somebody hasn't been understanding their Bible.

Matthew 25 1“Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2“Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent. 3“For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps. 5“Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep. 6“But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. 8“The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’

Exegesis at its finest.
I have 5 different Bible translations and each says "they took no oil."
None say "for our lamps are going out".
I guess if you search long enough, you can find a translation that proofs what you believe.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,386
5,724
113
What kind of response is that?! Can you read? I just provided information to show you what the actual verse says. If you don't want to believe it that is your error. It's not what I believe, but what it says. You people don't even believe when you're proven wrong. You reply with ridiculous responses like you did above. How do you call the list that I provided what I believe, when you can read it for yourself?
You provided information to show what HALF the verse says. Again and again and again. Because you can make the second half fit with your doctrine. You are deliberately ignoring the first half which says THEY TOOK NO OIL with them because it doesn't fit what you WANT to believe. Despite people posting the scripture you are ignoring it. Then you will claim no one backs themselves up with scripture but you.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,386
5,724
113
Somebody hasn't been understanding their Bible.

Matthew 25 1“Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2“Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent. 3“For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps. 5“Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep. 6“But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. 8“The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’

Exegesis at its finest.
............
 
H

heartofdavid

Guest
I have 5 different Bible translations and each says "they took no oil."
None say "for our lamps are going out".
I guess if you search long enough, you can find a translation that proofs what you believe.
Not the same verse. They all say gone or going.
" took" is another verse
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
113
Unfortunately all this haggling about oil misses the point that the city where the marriage was to be held was destroyed in the 1st century AD:

Mat 22:7 “But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.

Mat 22:8 “Then he *said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
113
Unfortunately all this haggling about oil misses the point that the city where the marriage was to be held was destroyed in the 1st century AD:

Mat 22:7 “But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.

Mat 22:8 “Then he *said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.



lol,,,"go to those who sell"= "buy nor sell lest they receive the..." both groups are there when midnight comes,,, I know you not is what is said to those who deny Jesus those who confess him he confesses before the father...
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
113
lol,,,"go to those who sell"= "buy nor sell lest they receive the..." both groups are there when midnight comes,,, I know you not is what is said to those who deny Jesus those who confess him he confesses before the father...

Is there a soandso translator in the house?

:p
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
You provided information to show what HALF the verse says. Again and again and again. Because you can make the second half fit with your doctrine. You are deliberately ignoring the first half which says THEY TOOK NO OIL with them because it doesn't fit what you WANT to believe. Despite people posting the scripture you are ignoring it. Then you will claim no one backs themselves up with scripture but you.
Hello Lucy,

Yes, you are correct, the foolish did not take any extra jars of oil with them, but, that does not mean that there was no oil in their lamps, which is why I pointed out the fact that the verse says "our lamps are going out," meaning that their lamps still had oil in them, but they were running outl. The jars are extra oil separate from the oil in the lamps, which the five wise brought with them. Therefore, I am not deliberately ignoring anything to make it fit what I believe.

To be clear, the verse says "our lamps are going out" which means that they had not yet gone out. However, they did not have any extra oil in jars to refill the oil in their lamps that were going out. I am too often accused of twisting scripture to make it fit my belief, yet it is exactly the opposite, as I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word and I only come to my conclusions based on cross-referencing and comparing scripture. Below is the actual verse:

"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take along any extra oil. But the wise ones took oil in jars along with their lamps. When the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

At midnight the cry went out: ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’
Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’

Paraphrase: Give us some of the extra oil from your jars, because the oil in our lamps is running out

'No,’ said the wise ones, ‘or there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’

Paraphrase: There may not be enough extra oil in our jars for both us and you to refill our lamps.

So all ten of them has oil in their lamps, the wise brought extra jars of oil to refill their lamps, but foolish didn't. The oil in lamps of the foolish were going out and since that did not bring extra jars of oil, they asked the wise to give them some of their extra oil.

I hope that you understand that I am not, nor do ever try to twist scripture to fit my belief, because my belief is what scripture says and I am very adamant about that.

I hope that this has been cleared up now.
 
Last edited:

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
59
48
It is the words of Jesus.
The immediate audience inclusion is a partial truth.
Mat 24 has " the end of the world" dynamic as well as "one taken,one left" ( the rapture)
There is no " one taken,one left historically or prophetically exclusive to the Jew.
.....which is mat 25 the gathering of the bride where one is taken,one is left. Only 3 or 4 verses later does Jesus say "watch and pray "
Yes Matt 24 has an "End of the World" dynamic which has nothing to Do the the CHURCH (Body of Christ). Yes, it will effect all those around the world who are non-believers or believers in hiding. Satan will find them and Kill them. Are you Ready.


Excuse me, the Church age (age of Grace) is not discuss in any of the Synoptic Gospels. Mat 25 in not gathering the Bride but rather gathering HIS people (Israel)

It is evident you do not rightly divide your Bible.....2 Tim 2:15

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were in Jesus' Ministry and that ministry was for the Jewish People. Was there Gentiles that was there. If they converted to Judaism.

Age of Post Flood, Pre Law
Age of Law (Moses')
John the Baptist Ministry
Jesus Christ's Ministry -Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, Peter

The Crucifixion ...........................

Age of the Church (Grace)- Paul's Ministry

Age of Daniel's 70th week- Matthew, Mark, John, Peter, Revelation (John)
Millennium - Matthew, Mark, John, Peter, Revelation (John)
Forever and ever -- Matthew, Mark, John, Peter, Revelation (John)


 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
59
48
The above speaks multitudes concerning your understanding.....and it is not good....

Under the NEW Covenant their is neither JEW nor GENTILE a they have been folded in under one banner.....JESUS is addressing HIS CHURCH in all the accounts...NOT the JEWS....the ONLY application of Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 unto the JEWS is found in MATTHEW, that being the part about the destruction of the temple and the scriptures applicable unto Jerusalem and it being razed by the Romans.....

HE is SPEAKING to HIS DISCIPLES<---the 1st NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH.......and regardless.....ALL three are clear...AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.....the ELECT will be gathered from....

A. The uttermost part of the earth
B. From one end of heaven unto the other
C. BY THE ANGELS of GOD

and before you make the same statement the other one did.....

The parable of the wheat and tares HAS THE ANGELS gathering the WHEAT for JESUS into his BARN

and

It was an ANGELS that carried LAZARUS to PARADISE for JESUS

The gathering of the ELECT, by the ANGELS from ALL of HEAVEN and the UTTERMOST parts of the earth IS the resurrection/change.....................AFTER the TRIBULATION THAT HAS NOT BEEN SEEN NOR WILL EVER BE SEEN AGAIN....
Only a preterist believes this! "Under the NEW Covenant their is neither JEW nor GENTILE a they have been folded in under one banner.....JESUS is addressing HIS CHURCH in all the accounts.." The New Covenant was to the Jewish People only as were all the other covenants throughout history..

All of them (synoptic Gospels) are for the Jewish people only .... If you look real closely, in Luke 21, Jesus is teaching in the temple to no one except the Jewish people. The Bible tells us that after the fullness of the Church, God will turn his attention back to His People, Israel.

You are right in one sense. Those who believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel (1 Cor 15:1-4) have only ONE Label... (the Body of Christ) whether they be Jews or Gentiles.

OOPS----Are you saying that the four winds represent earth......WRONG...throughout the Bible the Four Winds represent the Four Corners of Heaven. "the four principal or cardinal winds, hence the four corners of heaven"

Jesus is gathering His ELECT from everywhere in Heaven. The verse in the KJV actually reads...."And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

As for the tares, I will let you discern that,,, Jesus hide the real meaning of the parables for a reason....As a Pastor , you should know that?

During the Age of Law, Angels did carry the souls of those that were determined by God to be righteous (i.e. Lazarus) thus by His grace, he saved them and sent them to paradise.


 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
The main problem with your position is that you take verses and apply your own interpretation to them proclaiming them to be the only possible way to understand them. If you take the tribulation period as a whole you find that the visions John sees get progressively worse from the worlds point of view. When the Antichrist appears at the start he portrays himself as the Messiah and mimics the person of Christ offering Israel a seven year peace agreement which he breaks half way through. After this point he declares himself as God. Global worship of him begins along with a full scale campaign of persecution of Israel and Christian believers. John sees two visions one of Martyers under the throne and another of a numberless crowd of believers coming out of the tribulation.
I completely agree with everything that you wrote above, except the part about twisting scriptures to fit my own interpretation. I do and have taught the very same thing. I come to my conclusions by cross-referencing and comparing scriptures. You view it as me twisting scriptures because it doesn't match up with your positon.

According to you Gods wrath falls at the start of the tribulation. This doesnt conform to the detals given in Revelation.
The only way you can make it fit is for what Christ calls he birth pains in Matthew 24 to be lumped together with the day of the Lord.
One of the on-going problems within eschatology, are those who have coined the word "tribulation" as being separate from God's time of wrath, when in fact the tribulation is God's tribulation, not man's or Satan's. The seven years in which all this will take place, will be the fulfillment of God's seventy seven year periods that he decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem, therefore that time period is His time of wrath, better known as the day of the Lord.

As I continue to make known, Jesus is the One who is opening the Seals and is therefore responsible for the resulting fatalites, as well as the fatalities and destruction resulting from the trumpets and bowl judgments. All of the events that take place during that time period, including the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, the plagues of the two witnesses and the beasts kingdom are all apart of the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath. After all, those last seven years are the completion of the original seventy sevens decreed in Dan.9:24-27

As the Scripture says ''He will come in clouds and every eye shall see him and those who persecuted him'' Come Lord Jesus!
As usual, you are confusing the event of the gathering of the church, with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. The scripture that you quoted above is from Matt.24:30 and Rev.1:7. Bot of these are in reference to the Lord's return to end the age.

The other problem associated with this is found in Matt.24:31, where because there is a great trumpet sounded, expositors pigeon whole the word "trumpet" and assign it to being the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52. Also, when the Lord sends out his angels and they gather His elect "from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other" they interpret this as the angels gathering the church. Angels do not gather the church when the dead in Christ rise and the living are changed. It is the Lord himself who calls us up where we meet him in the air.

Those that the angels gather when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, will be those great tribulation saints and Israel who will have made it through the time of God's wrath alive and in their mortal bodies. These are those who will go into the millennial period and repopulate the earth.

Gathering of the church
= 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53

The Lord's return to the earth to end the age = Matthew 34:29-31, Revelation 1:7, Revelation 19:11-21

Gathering of the church = takes place prior to the first seal being opened, prior to God's wrath

The Lord's return to the earth to end the age = takes place after God's wrath

The church/bride is already seen in heaven receiving her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb, which is in heaven. Then in Rev.19:14, we see the same group following Christ out of heaven and wearing the same fine linen that she will have previously received. In order to follow the Lord out of heaven, the church would already have to be in heaven.
 
Last edited:

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
59
48
As concerning the virgins, It is not about morality, it is the fact that the five left had no oil. Nothing to produce light. No Holy Spirit dwelling within them. All ten virgins were equal on in the flesh, but 5 had oil (indwelling Holy Spirit) and 5 had no oil (indwelling Holy Spirit).

And for you to believe that a Just God will LEAVE BEHIND saints just because they do not believe in a pre-trib rapture is one of the most ridiculous thing you have said.


Then I ask why did Jesus go through the motion to have the Foolish Virgins go to town and then knock on the door when Jesus answers and tells them He does not know them?????????? WHy did Jesus not simply tell them they were lost and He did not believe them when He was taking the wise virgins.

One other point...The Bible calls them the Foolish Virgins, not the Fallen Virgins. Yes sin does lead to foolishness but so does only sinning a little. The bottom line is that they were not watching for His return thus they were left behind.

Let me ask you, If you are raising HELL on the weekends, wine, women and song yet come Sunday you find the pews where you can sleep while the pastor's message is given. Will Jesus tell you He does not know you ?

 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
59
48
Where does the Word say they ran out? It does not. It says they had no oil.
This is just another case of you and many others changing the Word of God so as to support your belief.
Read what it says.
Wow,,now,,,,No one is changing the Word of GOD... Our interpretation pretty well has many scholars in its corner....... If you believe something else, it is fine and I have no problem with it.... I have researched it as Acts 17:11 ask me to do and that is what I come up with...... But it is not changing the word of GOD....The virgins were not Watching (for whatever reason) for Jesus Christ's return and subsequently were left behind.