Not By Works

[Chester]

It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!


This is the OP.

Here is my statement about what I believe about salvation: (quite new and unpolished yet)

​

As the grace of my loving Father works in my heart, it creates faith (which is his work, not mine). This faith is my belief in the blood atonement of Jesus Christ. Now I am saved, which salvation is not just a rescue from eternal death sometime in the future, but it is also a salvation right now from slavery to sin. As I believe in the Father through the Son, the Holy Spirit does a work in my heart which allows the Father to make me his workmanship - all the "righteous works" done in me are 100% his doing - not mine. Praise the Lord!

​

To me the previous paragraph means that works "have something to do" with salvation. ​

​

"Something to do with" means something very, very different than that I am saved because of or through my works.

From my background and understanding (for me) to say that "works have ZERO to do with salvation" means that all I want is to have a mental transaction to remove the guilt of my sin so that I can get to heaven. For some of you the statement "works have ZERO to do with salvation" means something different than it does to me. That is OK! [SUB][/SUB]​

 

[dcontroversal]

You are missing the point. Faith without works is in vain. As the Bible states Satan and the other fallen angles believe but that changes nothing. So to if a person believes but does nothing their faith is in vain. Jesus looks into their hearts and perceives their true belief.

Why do you ignore James 2?

Go back and read the thread and then come falsely accuse me of ignoring JAMES......geesh man...get your facts straight if you are going to accuse someone of something......!!!!!!!!!

 

[dcontroversal]

Again, as i said before, no fruits.

his motives were caused by deception.
the very premise of the OP thread title is inviting strife by generally inferring falseness(imputing sin) , and is contrary to any teachings our Lord left us with.




All those who have come to the Lord have already reconciled that he is Lord and Savior.
And have since began a labor of Love.

This is noting more than an accusatory lie with no foundation.....thanks for coming clean.

 

[valleyofdecision]

It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!


This is the OP.

This is what I have seen to be the scriptures he uses. I was late coming to this thread.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.


1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;


1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.


1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The motive? Truth. Security of trust. You have The Complete Jewish Bible.

Notice how many times this Word trust is used.

There has been much fruit as the result of this thread.

But, it has also stirred up the spirit of religion. This is the natural man for man will worship something. Here are the debates found.

Salvation is by grace- the influence of Holy Spirit at work....or it's seen as the natural way of man to please God, by his own effort. This will not ever please Holy God, for we are never pleasing in fallen nature. Only in Christ and our placing faith in His blood sacrifice.

What would you do with those who continually misrepresent truth Pin?

Truth, the sword will divide. It divides soul and spirit.

Selah

This is just the foundation thread. If the foundation is off, so is the building.

I have told the Marine I disagree with his interpretation of these scriptures as having anything to do with salvation and we agreed peacefully to disagree.

You have to start at Vs 1-10 to gain what I believe is proper context for these verses.

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. [SUP]2 [/SUP]I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, [SUP]3 [/SUP]for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? [SUP]4 [/SUP]For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men? [SUP]5 [/SUP]What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. [SUP]6 [/SUP]I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. [SUP]7 [/SUP]So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.

This does not speak of salvation, but it speaks of the rewards and loss of rewards for minister/teacher who does not make Jesus Christ the foundation of his teaching to others.

As me and the Marine publicly posted, we do not see this passage the same way and it was not discussed any further.

 

[dcontroversal]

I post James 2 again


James 2:14 to 26

Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

So what........We conclude a man is justified by faith without works...PAUL was inspired, your lack of contextual application is not.

 

[Chester]

I can look at a thru f and deem their gospel false and then rightfully surmise that if person A believes gospel X which contradicts a-f that there is a high probability that they are not saved.........it is not judging the person per se, but rather a correct call concerning their belief....

Now we are getting somewhere! Agreed on that point!

 

[BillG]

You are missing the point. Faith without works is in vain. As the Bible states Satan and the other fallen angles believe but that changes nothing. So to if a person believes but does nothing their faith is in vain. Jesus looks into their hearts and perceives their true belief.

Why do you ignore James 2?

Also works without faith is dead.
I have highlighted the above because it is true.

Jesus looks at the hearts of people who place their faith in him.
Notice I say "Place and not proclaim"

That is why we need to be very careful indeed when we judge and why.

Jesus is the ultimate judge.
It is him and him alone who separates the sheep and the goats.

We need to look at the whole of James 2 and not just a few verses.

Yes it talks about works.

But it is addressing

Poverty, generosity and prejudice.

James 2:1-4
Chapter 2
Beware of Personal Favoritism
1 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. 2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, 3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, “You sit here in a good place,” and say to the poor man, “You stand there,” or, “Sit here at my footstool,” 4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?

James is alluding to

Leviticus 19:15


15 “You shall do no injustice in judgment. You shall not be partial to the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty. In righteousness you shall judge your neighbor.



If you fall foul of that then you fall foul of the royal law.
If you fall foul is the royal law then you are guilty of breaking the whole law.

James 2:8-10


8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

James 2:12
12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

What is the law of liberty?
The law of love, the royal law.

So to the verse that people focus on

James 2:14
Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

What are the works he is taking about?

James 2:15-17
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


Judgement day, sheep and goats

Matthew 25:35-36
35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

 

[dcontroversal]

Do you disagree with him that the saved life is a changed life?

I am not taking sides mio, I believe on that one point you both will agree. A saved life means a changed life and not a return to the old ways.

You have followed me and read other things I have said and already know the answer to this question.....you also know full well the difference in what he and I believe.......

 

[dcontroversal]

Tell me again that faith is all that is needed.

OK...to gain eternal salvation before God and the imputed righteousness of Christ while being justified before GOD REQUIRES FAITH ALONE WITHOUT WORKS

 

[valleyofdecision]

You have followed me and read other things I have said and already know the answer to this question.....you also know full well the difference in what he and I believe.......

I do and maybe you should let others know. There is no shame in that, is there? Not trying to take sides or stir it up with you, but honestly, if you tell others, it might make him go away.

 

[stonesoffire]

Here is my statement about what I believe about salvation: (quite new and unpolished yet)

​

As the grace of my loving Father works in my heart, it creates faith (which is his work, not mine). This faith is my belief in the blood atonement of Jesus Christ. Now I am saved, which salvation is not just a rescue from eternal death sometime in the future, but it is also a salvation right now from slavery to sin. As I believe in the Father through the Son, the Holy Spirit does a work in my heart which allows the Father to make me his workmanship - all the "righteous works" done in me are 100% his doing - not mine. Praise the Lord!

​

To me the previous paragraph means that works "have something to do" with salvation. ​

​

"Something to do with" means something very, very different than that I am saved because of or through my works.

From my background and understanding (for me) to say that "works have ZERO to do with salvation" means that all I want is to have a mental transaction to remove the guilt of my sin so that I can get to heaven. For some of you the statement "works have ZERO to do with salvation" means something different than it does to me. That is OK! ​

I agree with what you posted. As long as we explain what we believe in simple ways, we should come to unity.

Here's another thought that I have. For a season we may be conscious of sin, more than righteousness. But, when truth of imputed righteousness through the work of Jesus brought about by Holy Spirit, our mind is about this.

 

[7777pinacled]

This is noting more than an accusatory lie with no foundation.....thanks for coming clean.

i can hear whats in the spirit, arrogance is in your tone,
if you do not have a well of living Water of streams, then the tree will not bare fruits. just as it was with a man that sat for six days and thought himself king.
if you believe you are minister of flame then let us speak peaceably between our neighbors and offer water and food to them.

 

[Chester]

I agree with what you posted. As long as we explain what we believe in simple ways, we should come to unity.

Here's another thought that I have. For a season we may be conscious of sin, more than righteousness. But, when truth of imputed righteousness through the work of Jesus brought about by Holy Spirit, our mind is about this.

Satan is always trying to get us to focus on our sin rather than on the new person that we are in Christ Jesus

 

[dcontroversal]

I do and maybe you should let others know. There is no shame in that, is there? Not trying to take sides or stir it up with you, but honestly, if you tell others, it might make him go away.

I have said at least 50 times in this thread that it is faith and faith alone that saves a man and that any work or fruit produced is the direct result of the faith and salvation one already possesses in Christ by faith......I have also said that believers will have every flavor of work found under the sun, some will produce an abundance, some will produce little, some take years of growth and maturity before they produce and some will produce an abundance but may fall off in production as they grow old.....I have also said that some may haphazardly produce based upon "drought and disease<--using the analogy of an apple tree as proof)........

this thread is not about producing fruit or works...IT HAS ALWAYS been about the initial act of salvation and how one receives the eternal salvation, justification, sealing and sanctification of the Lord positionally in Christ....BY FAITH AND FAITH ALONE....

 

[NoNameMcgee]

this was me

i believed in nothing less than being entirely without sin to earn salvation but i was subtle and tried to twist my understanding as a weapon against DC

simply for saying "not by works"

dc to me you seem like someone who tries to justify sin and condem those who speak of repenting


if youre going to speak of salvation you should bring up the change of heart Jesus provides in those who do have faith



youre right


no amount of works will ever gain a sinner access to heaven

correct



but no one with faith is the same before and after they recieve the gift of Faith

You have been here what 9 days or so....go read every thread I have posted in and then come back bro....I have NEVER condemned one who preaches repentance pal.....nor do I EXCUSE SIN, but rather I ACKNOWLEDGE the bible's perspective on it....this thread is about salvation based upon faith void of works....NOT A THREAD ON SIN AND REPENTANCE....

me again vvvvv

i read your words, you appear how you appear

do you see the fruit?


i was falsely accusing him....


and he continued to be rather patient with me considering
i continued to falsely accuse him
which shows his fruit....

 

[dcontroversal]

i can hear whats in the spirit, arrogance is in your tone,
if you do not have a well of living Water of streams, then the tree will not bare fruits. just as it was with a man that sat for six days and thought himself king.
if you believe you are minister of flame then let us speak peaceably between our neighbors and offer water and food to them.

You do understand that you are contradicting yourself...SATAN is the accuser of the brethren and so far you have accused me and this thread no less than 3 times while judging my motive....that is not biblical whatsoever at all..

 

[valleyofdecision]

I have said at least 50 times in this thread that it is faith and faith alone that saves a man and that any work or fruit produced is the direct result of the faith and salvation one already possesses in Christ by faith......I have also said that believers will have every flavor of work found under the sun, some will produce an abundance, some will produce little, some take years of growth and maturity before they produce and some will produce an abundance but may fall off in production as they grow old.....I have also said that some may haphazardly produce based upon "drought and disease<--using the analogy of an apple tree as proof)........

this thread is not about producing fruit or works...IT HAS ALWAYS been about the initial act of salvation and how one receives the eternal salvation, justification, sealing and sanctification of the Lord positionally in Christ....BY FAITH AND FAITH ALONE....

Gotta pick on you on the bold above
Psalm 92-13-15

The righteous man will flourish like the palm tree,
He will grow like a cedar in Lebanon.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Planted in the house of the Lord,
They will flourish in the courts of our God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]They will still yield fruit in old age;
They shall be full of sap and very green,
[SUP]15 [/SUP]To declare that the Lord is upright;
He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him

Just messing with you.

Thanks again for re-iterating your motive in the thread. I did this because some have questioned your motive as selfish, but clearly you spelling it out again proves you are not.

 

[dcontroversal]

Gotta pick on you on the bold above
Psalm 92-13-15

The righteous man will flourish like the palm tree,
He will grow like a cedar in Lebanon.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Planted in the house of the Lord,
They will flourish in the courts of our God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]They will still yield fruit in old age;
They shall be full of sap and very green,
[SUP]15 [/SUP]To declare that the Lord is upright;
He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him

Just messing with you.

Thanks again for re-iterating your motive in the thread. I did this because some have questioned your motive as selfish, but clearly you spelling it out again proves you are not.

Sure and I will give it right back with two names....

David
Solomon

I am not saying ALL obviously, just the simple fact that creation speaks....and some trees wane in their production as they age....

the two men cited are prime examples....in their youth they both were on fire for God, wrote Psalms, Proverbs and faithful....yet as they aged they both fell into a rut if you will.....one because of sin having the sword in his house and the other building groves to idols due to his many wives

 

[valleyofdecision]

Sure and I will give it right back with two names....

David
Solomon

I am not saying ALL obviously, just the simple fact that creation speaks....and some trees wane in their production as they age....

the two men cited are prime examples....in their youth they both were on fire for God, wrote Psalms, Proverbs and faithful....yet as they aged they both fell into a rut if you will.....one because of sin having the sword in his house and the other building groves to idols due to his many wives

David's fruit that remained was in fact, Solomon. Light saber ignited, humming and in ready mode, lol

 

[dcontroversal]

David's fruit that remained was in fact, Solomon. Light saber ignited, humming and in ready mode, lol

HAHAHHA the result of an adulterous affair that ended in murder HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA