Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

Triune would have been correct and I agree except would say that our spirit is SAVED, sealed, justified and sanctified eternally in Christ, but our MIND needs to be renewed and changed by the word as in daily sanctification...our body is dead because of sin and will be changed in the resurrection/change....the best we can do is change outwardly in our actions because of the renewed mind......

You dont understand the tripartite man. Is that the right word? I would use the word triune but I've seen others use this other word.

Spirit, soul, and body. We are perfect in Spirit, but soul, our mind, our will, our emotions need to be "saved". This is how we connected to our world, and to others before our salvation experience.

Our motives are constantly exposed by the searchlight of Holy Spirit within us. Is why Paul said in one place, he didn't judge himself.

 

[stonesoffire]

i believe it also has to do with our environment and who we surround ourselves with.
I know there are times we are to visit the prisoners, but if the prisoner wishes to stay. We are not obligated to stay with them.
There are many examples of many kings who were surrounded by the wicked counsel of men perverted by covetousness.
the righthand of falseness reminds me of the leaven of malice and also the tongue.

It kind of reminds me of Trump and His need to drain the swamp. And now he has surrounded himself with the Righteous. Those false have been exposed.

 

[7777pinacled]

The person who claims he knows God but has no life to validate his claim.

Hypocrites will go into the flames at Jesus' return. No doctrine of 'no works necessary' will save him in that day. That's not a works gospel. Works are necessary as the evidence of the change of life a person gets through faith in Christ. No change of life shows you don't have that new life by faith in Christ, or that you lost it.

Hypocrisy is a very serious offense. Punishable by eternal condemnation. No 'no works necessary' claim is going to save the hypocrite. The big lie in the church today is it will save them. Works do matter. You do need works to be saved when Jesus comes back or you show you were not saved, or lost salvation, in this life.

Are you referring to the talents.?

Matthew 25:14-30 English Standard Version (ESV)

The Parable of the Talents

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants[a]and entrusted to them his property.
15 To one he gave five talents,[b] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.

16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.[c] You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

 

[stonesoffire]

Triune would have been correct and I agree except would say that our spirit is SAVED, sealed, justified and sanctified eternally in Christ, but our MIND needs to be renewed and changed by the word as in daily sanctification...our body is dead because of sin and will be changed in the resurrection/change....the best we can do is change outwardly in our actions because of the renewed mind......

Agreed.

The foundation is what brings unity. The knowledge of the Son.

The changing outwardly is the result of"seeing" the Son. Then we speak what we know.

So much peace, and rest in this. Then comes confidence Of His Presence leading to works of power.

 

[stonesoffire]

Amen

yes, i learned this early in my walk with the Lord.

I knew this, but I wasn't aware that I was Spirit, no longer flesh, until we hosted a minister from Tulsa. That was the beginning of my solid stance in Jesus.

Its funny how what is a simple truth can unlock so much formerly misunderstood.

pin, perhaps you are misunderstanding the point of this topic. Dcon is shooting down anything against the simplicity found in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Dont misjudge his motive.

 

[Chester]

Did I do that in my post.......I do not believe I did....and is it biblical or not to judge one's gospel by the truth?

If I told you that I believed that I could be saved by killing 1000 rabbits what would you conclude based upon the bible and my statement?

Judging one's gospel or judging the person are two different issues:


If you told me that you believed that you could be saved by killing 1000 rabbits:

(1) I would laugh uncontrollably and loan you my shotgun!
(2) I would tell you the Bible says that we are not saved by our works, but by putting our faith in Jesus Christ (Your gospel is wrong)
(3) I would not tell you do not have faith in Christ.

Under #2 I would be very clear with you about what Scripture says: I would warn you that you will not be saved by shooting rabbits or by any other works you do! (based upon showing you clearly what the Bible says)

Under #3 I would not judge you and tell you that you are going to hell. Nor would I say something like: "Because you are trusting in shooting rabbits, then you are not trusting in Christ." (essentially that is judging you and saying you are going to hell). There is no way that I can tell by the mere words that you say what is really in your heart. Salvation is not by words, or by works, but it is a matter of God's work in the heart. I will not stand in judgment of any man!
(But under #2 I will very clearly tell them what Scripture says, and I will plead with them to believe what Scripture says)

There are many among us (whoops - I should not have used a first person pronoun! LOL!) who have not yet come to a 100% correct interpretation of this whole faith/works issue. My guess is that there are some (many?) who though with their mouth say some incorrect theology, with their heart they really do believe in Christ.

Under #1 - After I loaned you my shotgun and you had shot your 1000 rabbits, I would call the game warden. He would lock you up for a few months which would give you some good time to reflect over your heretical beliefs. During that time I would show you the truths from God's Word and then you would believe like me when it is all finished! LOL!

 

[7777pinacled]

I knew this, but I wasn't aware that I was Spirit, no longer flesh, until we hosted a minister from Tulsa. That was the beginning of my solid stance in Jesus.

Its funny how what is a simple truth can unlock so much formerly misunderstood.

pin, perhaps you are misunderstanding the point of this topic. Dcon is shooting down anything against the simplicity found in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Dont misjudge his motive.

Again, as i said before, no fruits.

his motives were caused by deception.
the very premise of the OP thread title is inviting strife by generally inferring falseness(imputing sin) , and is contrary to any teachings our Lord left us with.




All those who have come to the Lord have already reconciled that he is Lord and Savior.
And have since began a labor of Love.

 

[7777pinacled]

I knew this, but I wasn't aware that I was Spirit, no longer flesh, until we hosted a minister from Tulsa. That was the beginning of my solid stance in Jesus.

Its funny how what is a simple truth can unlock so much formerly misunderstood.

pin, perhaps you are misunderstanding the point of this topic. Dcon is shooting down anything against the simplicity found in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Dont misjudge his motive.

Again, as i said before, no fruits.

his motives were caused by deception.
the very premise of the OP thread title is inviting strife by generally inferring falseness(imputing sin) , and is contrary to any teachings our Lord left us with.




All those who have come to the Lord have already reconciled that he is Lord and Savior.
And have since began a labor of Love.

 

[Endoscopy]

Nobody is ignoring anything......this thread is about the proper order and perspective concerning both and the reality of the types of works believers can and do have.....

Salvation is given based UPON FAITH.....there are NO WORKS involved in gaining the eternal life afforded by being saved due to said faith......a man cannot produce one work or piece of fruit unless ALREADY PLACED INTO THE VINE BY FAITH AND SALVATION....that is what this thread is about.....many who peddle works and say that a man is not saved UNLESS......have placed the cart 100 yards in front of the OX and expect the cart to drag the OX kicking and bellowing all the way home.....

You are missing the point. Faith without works is in vain. As the Bible states Satan and the other fallen angles believe but that changes nothing. So to if a person believes but does nothing their faith is in vain. Jesus looks into their hearts and perceives their true belief.

Why do you ignore James 2?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Again, as i said before, no fruits.

his motives were caused by deception.
the very premise of the OP thread title is inviting strife by generally inferring falseness(imputing sin) , and is contrary to any teachings our Lord left us with.




All those who have come to the Lord have already reconciled that he is Lord and Savior.
And have since began a labor of Love.

well youre absolutely wrong

so far 4 people i personally i know of left the false doctrine of sinless perfection and works to be justified because of being biblically proven wrong here


leading them to prayer
and study

God has used this thread

and this thread has been part of what He has used to produce fruit in some of His sheep

 

[Endoscopy]

I post James 2 again


James 2:14 to 26

Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

 

[valleyofdecision]

Blah blah blah Ralph......do you even know what the word hypocrite actually means.......I really suggest you take some time off and actually study the word......serious....everything you have said is nothing more than OPINION and your blind stance against the grace of GOD that utterly smashes your working for dogma and this I am not saved garbage until the end when the Lord sees my works.....such deceit.....

Do you disagree with him that the saved life is a changed life?

I am not taking sides mio, I believe on that one point you both will agree. A saved life means a changed life and not a return to the old ways.

 

[Endoscopy]

Tell me again that faith is all that is needed.

 

[stonesoffire]

It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!


This is the OP.

This is what I have seen to be the scriptures he uses. I was late coming to this thread.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.


1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;


1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.


1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The motive? Truth. Security of trust. You have The Complete Jewish Bible.

Notice how many times this Word trust is used.

There has been much fruit as the result of this thread.

But, it has also stirred up the spirit of religion. This is the natural man for man will worship something. Here are the debates found.

Salvation is by grace- the influence of Holy Spirit at work....or it's seen as the natural way of man to please God, by his own effort. This will not ever please Holy God, for we are never pleasing in fallen nature. Only in Christ and our placing faith in His blood sacrifice.

What would you do with those who continually misrepresent truth Pin?

Truth, the sword will divide. It divides soul and spirit.

Selah

This is just the foundation thread. If the foundation is off, so is the building.

 

[Chester]

Tell me again that faith is all that is needed.

Just forget the "is all" or "alone" or "without" or "not needed" . . . . . . . .

We are saved by grace through faith, not by works - so that we can be the workmanship of God.

 

[7777pinacled]

It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!


This is the OP.

This is what I have seen to be the scriptures he uses. I was late coming to this thread.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.


1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;


1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.


1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The motive? Truth. Security of trust. You have The Complete Jewish Bible.

Notice how many times this Word trust is used.

There has been much fruit as the result of this thread.

But, it has also stirred up the spirit of religion. This is the natural man for man will worship something. Here are the debates found.

Salvation is by grace- the influence of Holy Spirit at work....or it's seen as the natural way of man to please God, by his own effort. This will not ever please Holy God, for we are never pleasing in fallen nature. Only in Christ and our placing faith in His blood sacrifice.

What would you do with those who continually misrepresent truth Pin?

Truth, the sword will divide. It divides soul and spirit.

Selah

This is just the foundation thread. If the foundation is off, so is the building.

Take up the whole armor.

hiding under a shield alone all a persons life is what the enemy wants.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

the context of James 2 is admonishing a group of people for showing partiality.
for treating a rich man better than a poor man.

that's the specifics 'break one part of the law and be guilty of all of it' ((in Leviticus 19 it says do not show partiality to the rich)) -- and when James says 'one of you will say, i have faith and you have works' -- guess who it is ((in the context)) that says that?
and guess who it is that would turn away a person starving and freezing to death ((the specific example of 'works' he uses)) with only words and no physical help?
would it be the person who thinks they need redemption or the person who doesn't?
who does Jesus talk about, neglecting the poor?
people who boasted of works, or people who boasted of faith?

who was rich in Jewish society?

we talking about a pharisee here? one who has become a believer?

if we are, would that pharisee believer be likely to feel justified by his works, or by his faith?

well put my friend

 

[stonesoffire]

Tell me again that faith is all that is needed.

Faith in the Cross of the blood sacrifice before Father. James was written before Paul's gospel. According to some. I believe this to be true.

 

[dcontroversal]

Judging one's gospel or judging the person are two different issues:


If you told me that you believed that you could be saved by killing 1000 rabbits:

(1) I would laugh uncontrollably and loan you my shotgun!
(2) I would tell you the Bible says that we are not saved by our works, but by putting our faith in Jesus Christ (Your gospel is wrong)
(3) I would not tell you do not have faith in Christ.

Under #2 I would be very clear with you about what Scripture says: I would warn you that you will not be saved by shooting rabbits or by any other works you do! (based upon showing you clearly what the Bible says)

Under #3 I would not judge you and tell you that you are going to hell. Nor would I say something like: "Because you are trusting in shooting rabbits, then you are not trusting in Christ." (essentially that is judging you and saying you are going to hell). There is no way that I can tell by the mere words that you say what is really in your heart. Salvation is not by words, or by works, but it is a matter of God's work in the heart. I will not stand in judgment of any man!
(But under #2 I will very clearly tell them what Scripture says, and I will plead with them to believe what Scripture says)

There are many among us (whoops - I should not have used a first person pronoun! LOL!) who have not yet come to a 100% correct interpretation of this whole faith/works issue. My guess is that there are some (many?) who though with their mouth say some incorrect theology, with their heart they really do believe in Christ.

Under #1 - After I loaned you my shotgun and you had shot your 1000 rabbits, I would call the game warden. He would lock you up for a few months which would give you some good time to reflect over your heretical beliefs. During that time I would show you the truths from God's Word and then you would believe like me when it is all finished! LOL!

By our words we will be justified and or condemned......

I can rightfully judge one's doctrine from the word and determine is said belief into that doctrine = saved or not......Jesus done the same thing by the "doctrine" that the Pharisees pushed....

If my bible tells me the following....

NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we HAVE DONE, but according to his mercy HAS HE SAVED US.....

It PLEASED GOD by the foolishness of preaching to SAVE THEM THAT BELIEVE

HE that BELIEVES ON THE SON IS NOT CONDEMNED

HE THAT BELIEVES ON THE SON IS HAVING EVERLASTING LIFE....

I can rightfully conclude the following....

a. I, WE are saved by believing in the SON
b. It is NOT according to any work of RIGHTEOUSNESS which I/WE HAVE DONE
c. I/WE HAVE BEEN SAVED (PAST TENSE and as CURRENT POSSESSION) according to HIS MERCY
d. IT pleased GOD to save those who BELIEVE the preaching
e. IF I/WE believe on JESUS we are not CONDEMNED
f. IF I/WE believe on JESUS we are POSSESSING EVERLASTING LIFE

The above cannot be negated and for one to tell me that....

x. WE are NOT saved until the end when GOD sees our works

I can look at a thru f and deem their gospel false and then rightfully surmise that if person A believes gospel X which contradicts a-f that there is a high probability that they are not saved.........it is not judging the person per se, but rather a correct call concerning their belief....

 

[stonesoffire]

Take up the whole armor.

hiding under a shield alone all a persons life is what the enemy wants.

You are misunderstanding topic.

You want to discuss the full armor? Make a thread concerning putting on the mantle of Jesus.

This is the foundation topic. And many are confused. I have been this too. No more, and a large part of this is due to study when others speak something. We search it out to see if true.