Not By Works

[Ralph-]

d. Some, yea, MANY will produce nothing more than wood, hay and stubble
f. Some will go to the ground with nothing more than salvation

Assuming the wood hay and stubble in 1 Corinthians 3:5-15 are self righteous works of righteousness (which they are not) the belief that the person who still lives in his old life is saved nonetheless, just as long as he says he believes and is saved, is called Freegrace theology.

Problem is it directly contradicts John and Paul who both say the person with no change of life is not born again.

Traditional once saved always saved (the 'P' in TULIP) says the person who is not changed is not born again. The difficulty is in getting once saved always saved people to decide which once saved always saved they believe. In one post they believe one. In another post they believe the other.

But in the final analysis it seems traditional Calvinistic 'P' is being dumped for this new once saved always saved doctrine of assurance and security. It is overtaking the church. It is the undoing of the visible earthly church. We will not recover from this.

 

[UnderGrace]

What exactly is this changed life Ralphie?

Please do not bring up grace doctrines..... free or hyper we might get banned...please stop! Sorry could not resist. You said that to me remember.

Assuming the wood hay and stubble in 1 Corinthians 3:5-15 are self righteous works of righteousness (which they are not) the belief that the person who still lives in his old life is saved nonetheless, just as long as he says he believes and is saved, is called Freegrace theology.

Problem is it directly contradicts John and Paul who both say the person with no change of life is not born again.

Traditional once saved always saved (the 'P' in TULIP) says the person who is not changed is not born again. The difficulty is in getting once saved always saved people to decide which once saved always saved they believe. In one post they believe one. In another post they believe the other.

But in the final analysis it seems traditional Calvinistic 'P' is being dumped for this new once saved always saved doctrine of assurance and security. It is overtaking the church. It is the undoing of the visible earthly church. We will not recover from this.

 

[Ralph-]

For those reading....Ralph is not being entirely honest....he preaches a works vanilla café blend false gospel and states clearly that NONE are saved UNTIL JESUS sees their works on the day of judgment which totally denies the fact that one cannot produce a thing unless they have ALREADY BEEN PLACED INTO THE VINE BY THE FAITH AND SALVATION THEY ALREADY POSSESS IN CHRIST.

No, the coming judgment is where it is made known if you are already saved or not. It is the final, official sentencing of mankind. If you are saved when Jesus comes back you will be saved from the fire. If you are not saved when Jesus comes back you will not be saved from the fire.

We know for sure now which we are, saved or unsaved, by if we have entered into God's Sabbath rest from the slavery of sin, and if we have a putting off of the deeds of the flesh in a circumcising of the heart done by unseen hands. We do not know for sure we are saved by someone telling us we can't lose our salvation. The Bible does not teach that as the way to know for sure we are saved. That does not answer the question of whether we really believe unto salvation in the first place for once saved always saved to even matter. Our works show whether we really believe and are born again.

Our lives are the evidence that Jesus will use when he comes back to acquit the righteous and to condemn the unrighteous. Our righteous works are only the EVIDENCE of our salvation at that time, not the procurer of salvation. Salvation is secured apart from the merit of righteous work.

 

[tourist]

ROFL
I lived in Royal Oak just north of Detroit for 9 years. I understand how lovely driving on ice was!
ROFL

I've been to Royal Oak quite a few times. Yes, driving on ice is no picnic.

 

[TMS]

Faith and works are like two sides of a coin. Faith results in works and obeidience.
If you really believe something, you will act like it.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

1Co_13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity (LOVE), these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.




Don't tell me that works has nothing to do with being a Christian.
The motive behind the works is the issue and only God can judge the motives.

 

[UnderGrace]

Canadians are used to it, we put chains on our tires, it helps

I've been to Royal Oak quite a few times. Yes, driving on ice is no picnic.

 

[dcontroversal]

Assuming the wood hay and stubble in 1 Corinthians 3:5-15 are self righteous works of righteousness (which they are not) the belief that the person who still lives in his old life is saved nonetheless, just as long as he says he believes and is saved, is called Freegrace theology.

Problem is it directly contradicts John and Paul who both say the person with no change of life is not born again.

Traditional once saved always saved (the 'P' in TULIP) says the person who is not changed is not born again. The difficulty is in getting once saved always saved people to decide which once saved always saved they believe. In one post they believe one. In another post they believe the other.

But in the final analysis it seems traditional Calvinistic 'P' is being dumped for this new once saved always saved doctrine of assurance and security. It is overtaking the church. It is the undoing of the visible earthly church. We will not recover from this.

Look...in all honesty I cannot even begin to take you serious, I believe nothing you say and your words carry no weight with me....as many times as you have contradicted the bible, twisted and or embellished what we have stated, the verbiage, context and verb tense you have rejected, the many times you try to throw your own yoke of disbelief off onto some erroneous doctrine while disregarding ALL the proof that has been given to you by many in this thread has led me to disregard everything you say....even your stance in this diatribe you posted here is beyond and serious consideration....

The bible is replete with the proof of eternal security....keep thinking your not saved until the end when your works are examined, keep making a stance against all the proof of salvation by faith and that salvation being eternal....I could care less about what you believe, push, argue and or bloviate......your own dogmatic stance has blinded you to any truth other than what is hammered out on your own anvil of works.....the same was true with the few that came before you pushing the same dogma.....

 

[dcontroversal]

No, the coming judgment is where it is made known if you are already saved or not. It is the final, official sentencing of mankind. If you are saved when Jesus comes back you will be saved from the fire. If you are not saved when Jesus comes back you will not be saved from the fire.

We know for sure now which we are, saved or unsaved, by if we have entered into God's Sabbath rest from the slavery of sin, and if we have a putting off of the deeds of the flesh in a circumcising of the heart done by unseen hands. We do not know for sure we are saved by someone telling us we can't lose our salvation. The Bible does not teach that as the way to know for sure we are saved. That does not answer the question of whether we really believe unto salvation in the first place for once saved always saved to even matter. Our works show whether we really believe and are born again.

Our lives are the evidence that Jesus will use when he comes back to acquit the righteous and to condemn the unrighteous. Our righteous works are only the EVIDENCE of our salvation at that time, not the procurer of salvation. Salvation is secured apart from the merit of righteous work.

Nice twist.....not the way you worded it before......more inconsistencies from the master manipulator........seems more and more obvious who actually leads you.....

 

[stonesoffire]

What does your assertion of mostly unused theological terms have to do with the fact that the law is in force today. At 73 and been a Christian since grade school and been an elder and deacon in 3 different churches (moved twice) I never heard those terms before. Methinks you are a bit of a showoff. Also eschatology has 4 seperate Biblical views and this is tied into that.

Matthew 5:17 to 20 NIV


The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


Every time we transgress the law we sin.

If we do not accept Jesus as our savior we will be held accountable for them at the time of judgment.

If we accept Jesus as our savior then our sins are imputed to Him and His rightnerighte is imputed to us. Therefore at the time of judgment we have been cleansed by His blood. A blood sacrifice is required to remove sins.

Surprising to me that you haven't heard of the Great White Throne judgement, and the judgement seat of Christ.

Showoff? It wasn't me that wrote of all the positions I held in churches was it? I will not be at the GWT judgement. All my sin....notice I said sin not sins, was forgiven at His Cross with my accepting Him. Past,present, future because it's the nature of sin I have died to. Is this truth? Do you need the scriptures?

Jesus has made me a new creation woman.

 

[7777pinacled]

This post proves nothing other than a bias, uneducated mouthy response void of the facts.....

Are you a type of first fruits?






For if the miracles done in you had been done in S’dom, it would still be in existence today. 24 But I tell you that on the Day of Judgment it will be more bearable for the land of S’dom than for you!”
25 It was at that time that Yeshua said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you concealed these things from the sophisticated and educated and revealed them to ordinary folks. 26 Yes, Father, I thank you that it pleased you to do this.
27 “My Father has handed over everything to me. Indeed, no one fully knows the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son wishes to reveal him.

figs or lack of?
15 “You say that Adonai has raised up prophets for you in Bavel. 16 But here is what Adonai says about the king occupying David’s throne and about all the people living in this city, your kinsmen who did not go into exile with you — 17 thus says Adonai-Tzva’ot:
‘I will attack them with sword, famine and plague; I will make them like bad figs, so bad they are inedible. 18 I will pursue them with sword, famine and plague and make them an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth; and they will bring on themselves cursing, astonishment, ridicule and reproach among all the nations where I have driven them; 19

because they have not paid attention to my words,’ says Adonai, ‘which I sent to them through my servants the prophets. I sent them frequently, but you refused to listen,’ says Adonai.
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]


20 “So pay attention now to the word of Adonai, all of you in exile, whom I sent away from Yerushalayim to Bavel. 21 Here is what Adonai-Tzva’ot, the God of Isra’el, says about Ach’av the son of Kolayah and Tzidkiyahu the son of Ma‘aseiyah, who prophesy lies to you in my name:

‘I will hand them over to N’vukhadretzar king of Bavel, and he will put them to death before your eyes. 22

in fact, all those exiled from Y’hudah who are in Bavel will take up this formula for cursing:
“May Adonai make you like Tzidkiyahu and Ach’av,
whom the king of Bavel roasted in the fire!”

23 because they have done vile things in Isra’el, committing adultery with their neighbors’ wives and speaking words in my name, falsely, which I did not order them to say.

For I am he who knows; I am witness to this,’ says Adonai.




Matthew 21:18-22 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

18 The next morning, on his way back to the city, he felt hungry. 19 Spotting a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves.
So he said to it,
“May you never again bear fruit!” and immediately the fig tree dried up. 20 The talmidim saw this and were amazed. “How did the fig tree dry up so quickly?” they asked. 21

Yeshua answered them, “Yes! I tell you, if you have trust and don’t doubt, you will not only do what was done to this fig tree; but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Go and throw yourself into the sea!’ it will be done. 22 In other words, you will receive everything you ask for in prayer, no matter what it is, provided you have trust.”




because they have not paid attention to my words,’ says Adonai, ‘which I sent to them through my servants the prophets. I sent them frequently, but you refused to listen,’ says Adonai.
[FONT=&quot]In days gone by, God spoke in many and varied ways to the Fathers through the prophets. 2 But now, in the acharit-hayamim, he has spoken to us through his Son, to whom he has given ownership of everything and through whom he created the universe. 3 This Son is the radiance of the Sh’khinah, the very expression of God’s essence, upholding all that exists by his powerful word; and after he had, through himself, made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of HaG’dulah BaM’romim.[a][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 So he has become much better than angels, and the name God has given him is superior to theirs. 5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,...................[/FONT]

 

[Endoscopy]

Assuming the wood hay and stubble in 1 Corinthians 3:5-15 are self righteous works of righteousness (which they are not) the belief that the person who still lives in his old life is saved nonetheless, just as long as he says he believes and is saved, is called Freegrace theology.

Problem is it directly contradicts John and Paul who both say the person with no change of life is not born again.

Traditional once saved always saved (the 'P' in TULIP) says the person who is not changed is not born again. The difficulty is in getting once saved always saved people to decide which once saved always saved they believe. In one post they believe one. In another post they believe the other.

But in the final analysis it seems traditional Calvinistic 'P' is being dumped for this new once saved always saved doctrine of assurance and security. It is overtaking the church. It is the undoing of the visible earthly church. We will not recover from this.

It dependsdon which denomination you speak about. There are part Calvinist churches Then there is Arminianism that has the same issue with churches fully and partially accepting that view.

Reformed/Calvinist
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

 

[UnderGrace]

Our lives

Sorry to intrude but....there is only one righteous life that will save from the fire and that is His Life imputed to us.

No, the coming judgment is where it is made known if you are already saved or not. It is the final, official sentencing of mankind. If you are saved when Jesus comes back you will be saved from the fire. If you are not saved when Jesus comes back you will not be saved from the fire.

We know for sure now which we are, saved or unsaved, by if we have entered into God's Sabbath rest from the slavery of sin, and if we have a putting off of the deeds of the flesh in a circumcising of the heart done by unseen hands. We do not know for sure we are saved by someone telling us we can't lose our salvation. The Bible does not teach that as the way to know for sure we are saved. That does not answer the question of whether we really believe unto salvation in the first place for once saved always saved to even matter. Our works show whether we really believe and are born again.

Our lives are the evidence that Jesus will use when he comes back to acquit the righteous and to condemn the unrighteous. Our righteous works are only the EVIDENCE of our salvation at that time, not the procurer of salvation. Salvation is secured apart from the merit of righteous work.

 

[stonesoffire]

Nice twist.....not the way you worded it before......more inconsistencies from the master manipulator........seems more and more obvious who actually leads you.....

What I am seeing is this person is taking the truth that we are posting and then twisting it into her thoughts to make it try to fit. Just like someone else I know.

 

[dcontroversal]

Faith and works are like two sides of a coin. Faith results in works and obeidience.
If you really believe something, you will act like it.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

1Co_13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity (LOVE), these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.




Don't tell me that works has nothing to do with being a Christian.
The motive behind the works is the issue and only God can judge the motives.

If you will notice mate.....the difference is found below...

Group a....SAVED by faith and faith alone...any work or fruit is the result of the salvation and or faith one already possesses in Christ...and the saved may or may not produce based upon growth, maturity, the word, and will produce works of every flavor...some burnt to a crisp yet saved, some purified and brings glory to God

Group B....Saved by faith but topped off, maintained or embellished by works, deny the above bolded and some even ignorantly state that no one is saved until the end when their works are seen by Christ and or state that ONE is not saved if they HAVE NO WORKS<---while yanking JAMES out of context that is......

We have consistently said that ALL genuinely saved have already done the work of the HEAVENLY FATHER in belief.

 

[dcontroversal]

The wording "first fruits" is applied unto JESUS and the 144,0000 found in Revelation............

Are you a type of first fruits?






For if the miracles done in you had been done in S’dom, it would still be in existence today. 24 But I tell you that on the Day of Judgment it will be more bearable for the land of S’dom than for you!”
25 It was at that time that Yeshua said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you concealed these things from the sophisticated and educated and revealed them to ordinary folks. 26 Yes, Father, I thank you that it pleased you to do this.
27 “My Father has handed over everything to me. Indeed, no one fully knows the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son wishes to reveal him.

figs or lack of?
15 “You say that Adonai has raised up prophets for you in Bavel. 16 But here is what Adonai says about the king occupying David’s throne and about all the people living in this city, your kinsmen who did not go into exile with you — 17 thus says Adonai-Tzva’ot:
‘I will attack them with sword, famine and plague; I will make them like bad figs, so bad they are inedible. 18 I will pursue them with sword, famine and plague and make them an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth; and they will bring on themselves cursing, astonishment, ridicule and reproach among all the nations where I have driven them; 19

because they have not paid attention to my words,’ says Adonai, ‘which I sent to them through my servants the prophets. I sent them frequently, but you refused to listen,’ says Adonai.




20 “So pay attention now to the word of Adonai, all of you in exile, whom I sent away from Yerushalayim to Bavel. 21 Here is what Adonai-Tzva’ot, the God of Isra’el, says about Ach’av the son of Kolayah and Tzidkiyahu the son of Ma‘aseiyah, who prophesy lies to you in my name:

‘I will hand them over to N’vukhadretzar king of Bavel, and he will put them to death before your eyes. 22

in fact, all those exiled from Y’hudah who are in Bavel will take up this formula for cursing:
“May Adonai make you like Tzidkiyahu and Ach’av,
whom the king of Bavel roasted in the fire!”

23 because they have done vile things in Isra’el, committing adultery with their neighbors’ wives and speaking words in my name, falsely, which I did not order them to say.

For I am he who knows; I am witness to this,’ says Adonai.




Matthew 21:18-22 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

18 The next morning, on his way back to the city, he felt hungry. 19 Spotting a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves.
So he said to it,
“May you never again bear fruit!” and immediately the fig tree dried up. 20 The talmidim saw this and were amazed. “How did the fig tree dry up so quickly?” they asked. 21

Yeshua answered them, “Yes! I tell you, if you have trust and don’t doubt, you will not only do what was done to this fig tree; but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Go and throw yourself into the sea!’ it will be done. 22 In other words, you will receive everything you ask for in prayer, no matter what it is, provided you have trust.”




because they have not paid attention to my words,’ says Adonai, ‘which I sent to them through my servants the prophets. I sent them frequently, but you refused to listen,’ says Adonai.
In days gone by, God spoke in many and varied ways to the Fathers through the prophets. 2 But now, in the acharit-hayamim, he has spoken to us through his Son, to whom he has given ownership of everything and through whom he created the universe. 3 This Son is the radiance of the Sh’khinah, the very expression of God’s essence, upholding all that exists by his powerful word; and after he had, through himself, made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of HaG’dulah BaM’romim.[a]
4 So he has become much better than angels, and the name God has given him is superior to theirs. 5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,...................

 

[UnderGrace]

Perhaps I should not admit this, and of course this is a serious topic, but I do find it all the variations of this cut and paste theology quite entertaining.

What I am seeing is this person is taking the truth that we are posting and then twisting it into her thoughts to make it try to fit. Just like someone else I know.

 

[Ralph-]

What exactly is this changed life Ralphie?

"the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23gentleness, self-control"-Galatians 5:22-23

This is the changed/changing life. Especially when a person is under fire. When these fruit flourish, especially when you are suffering, you show yourself to have the Spirit in salvation in you. People who have this in them don't wonder if they believe and are saved. The fruit of the Spirit seen in their behavior testifies that they know Christ in salvation and are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

 

[7777pinacled]

(1) Adonai says to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies
your footstool.”

2 Adonai will send your powerful scepter
out from Tziyon,
so that you will rule over
your enemies around you.
3 On the day your forces mobilize,
your people willingly offer themselves
in holy splendors from the womb of the dawn;
the dew of your youth is yours.

4 Adonai has sworn it,
and he will never retract —
“You are a cohen forever,
to be compared with Malki-Tzedek.”

5 Adonai at your right hand
will shatter kings on the day of his anger.
6 He will pass judgment among the nations,
filling it with dead bodies;
he will shatter heads
throughout an extensive territory.
7 He will drink from a stream as he goes on his way;
therefore he will hold his head high.



2 Corinthians 6
6 As God’s fellow-workers we also urge you not to receive his grace and then do nothing with it. 2 For he says,

“At the acceptable time I heard you;
in the day of salvation I helped you.”

3 We try not to put obstacles in anyone’s path, so that no one can find fault with the work we do. 4 On the contrary, we try to commend ourselves in every way as workers for God by continually enduring troubles, hardships, calamities, 5 beatings, imprisonments, riots, overwork, lack of sleep and food. 6 We commend ourselves by our purity, knowledge, patience and kindness; by the Ruach HaKodesh; by genuineness of love 7 and truthfulness of speech; and by God’s power.

We commend ourselves through our use of righteous weapons, whether for pressing our cause or defending it; 8 through being honored and dishonored, praised and blamed, considered deceptive and sincere, 9 unknown and famous. And we commend ourselves as God’s workers headed for death, yet look! we’re alive! as punished, yet not killed; 10 as having reason to be sad, yet always filled with joy; as poor, yet making many people rich; as having nothing, yet having everything!

 

[Ralph-]

Sorry to intrude but....there is only one righteous life that will save from the fire and that is His Life imputed to us.

That's right. And we know if we have his righteousness to save us from the fire by if we are changed/changing people. People who don't live changed/changing lives can't know for sure if they have his righteousness applied to their account through faith or not.

The Holy Spirit is the proof of salvation. It is the mark, the seal, that protects the righteous from destruction. The presence of the Holy Spirit-the mark of salvation-is revealed in us in the fruit of the Spirit.

The fruit of the Spirit is the mark in our flesh, the circumcision that shows that we are in covenant with God through Christ, just as literal circumcision was the mark in the flesh that showed that a person was in covenant with God through Moses.

 

[UnderGrace]

Thank you for the response but.....

Ralphie ...our assurance is from God's word, We trust His Word, assurance is not from our fruits.

The statement goes from you to they.....did you notice that? Which one are we talking about?

"the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23gentleness, self-control"-Galatians 5:22-23

This is the changed/changing life. Especially when a person is under fire. When these fruit flourish, especially when you are suffering, you show yourself to have the Spirit in salvation in you. People who have this in them don't wonder if they believe and are saved. The fruit of the Spirit seen in their behavior testifies that they know Christ in salvation and are sealed with the Holy Spirit.