Not By Works
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R
Everybody who believes is in the vine.
The scary part is the doctrine that says you know for sure if you are saved by if you endure all the way to the end (the argument being that if you fail along the way you were never really in the vine to begin with). That means you can never know in this life if you are truly born again. You can only know if you are truly born again when you get to the end.
But good for us, the bible explains that you can know if you truly believe by if the Christ child is being reproduced in you.
The scary part is the doctrine that says you know for sure if you are saved by if you endure all the way to the end (the argument being that if you fail along the way you were never really in the vine to begin with). That means you can never know in this life if you are truly born again. You can only know if you are truly born again when you get to the end.
But good for us, the bible explains that you can know if you truly believe by if the Christ child is being reproduced in you.
N
if He has even started in us
we ought to have confidence
you can have boldness in your salvation already being sealed
Ephesians 3:12
“In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.”
_______
Hebrews Chapter 10
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And [having] an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised
______
Philippians 1:6
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
we ought to have confidence
you can have boldness in your salvation already being sealed
Ephesians 3:12
“In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.”
_______
Hebrews Chapter 10
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And [having] an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised
______
Philippians 1:6
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
R
No, unbelievers do not inherit the kingdom. Doesn't matter if they used to or never did believe. Unbelievers go to the left into the fire, not to the right into the kingdom.
Freegrace doctrine says unbelievers WILL go into the kingdom. That's so blasphemous it's hardly worth the attention except that so many in the church now believe that's true.
And traditional once saved always saved doctrine (the 'P' in TULIP) says you can't know if you're truly saved until you get to the end.
And these are supposed to be doctrines of eternal security and assurance.
Freegrace doctrine says unbelievers WILL go into the kingdom. That's so blasphemous it's hardly worth the attention except that so many in the church now believe that's true.
And traditional once saved always saved doctrine (the 'P' in TULIP) says you can't know if you're truly saved until you get to the end.
And these are supposed to be doctrines of eternal security and assurance.
R
if He has even started in us
we ought to have confidence
you can have boldness in your salvation already being sealed
Ephesians 3:12
“In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.”
_______
Hebrews Chapter 10
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And [having] an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised
______
Philippians 1:6
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
we ought to have confidence
you can have boldness in your salvation already being sealed
Ephesians 3:12
“In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.”
_______
Hebrews Chapter 10
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And [having] an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised
______
Philippians 1:6
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Your life is what shows if you really believe and are saved and will be saved when Jesus comes back. Not a once saved always saved doctrine.
She has already seen through your garbage.....you vacillate more than the Atlantic with a hurricane coming in.....and your dogma....man....you must really be deceived.....
Salvation by faith is what places one into the vine....end of story and your dogma of not being saved UNTIL the end and JESUS seeing your works TOTALLY contradicts what you are now trying to say to ROSE in this post here....you can forget it....any honest person in CC can read your vacillating false dogma and see that what you peddle does not jive with the bible Ralph....
WOW.......amazing.....
Salvation by faith is what places one into the vine....end of story and your dogma of not being saved UNTIL the end and JESUS seeing your works TOTALLY contradicts what you are now trying to say to ROSE in this post here....you can forget it....any honest person in CC can read your vacillating false dogma and see that what you peddle does not jive with the bible Ralph....
WOW.......amazing.....
N
not scary at all
perfect love casts out fear
ephesians
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
1 john
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
perfect love casts out fear
ephesians
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
1 john
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
N
1 john
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
all scriptures flow in harmony
and He has already blessed me with assurance in His promises
this is freely given to all those who accept them
Now your just lying and embellishing to cover up your above fallacies......
Saved is saved and one who has exercised saving faith is born again eternally....and NO one has even said that unbelievers enter the kingdom....
I suggest you look the word HONEST and HONESTY up.....your lack thereof belies who really leads you....
Saved is saved and one who has exercised saving faith is born again eternally....and NO one has even said that unbelievers enter the kingdom....
I suggest you look the word HONEST and HONESTY up.....your lack thereof belies who really leads you....
N
no one said they did or even implied that
well sure it does
if they truely believe they will maintain faith in Him until the end
or else it is manifest they were never of us
(as the scriptures clearly state)
who said those who dont have faith in Him go to heaven?
ive never once seen that here
i have no demonination
but ive never heard any of those you falsely accuse say this
hmmm
weird
ive never heard it outside universalism
i dont go by traditions of men
i go by scripture
but i know im saved according to Gods promises
what the universalists strawmen you added?
well sure it does
if they truely believe they will maintain faith in Him until the end
or else it is manifest they were never of us
(as the scriptures clearly state)
who said those who dont have faith in Him go to heaven?
ive never once seen that here
i have no demonination
but ive never heard any of those you falsely accuse say this
hmmm
weird
ive never heard it outside universalism
i dont go by traditions of men
i go by scripture
but i know im saved according to Gods promises
what the universalists strawmen you added?
This has been a long, long, thread and it keeps going . . . Why?
I decided to go back to the opening post: Titus 3:5
The different versions of that verse give it a bit differently, but here is the NASV as originally posted:
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5
What does the verse say about works? It says that we are not saved on the basis of righteous works.
The opening post says (concludes) that thus our righteous works have ZERO to do with salvation.
So what is all the hubbub and debate and wrangling and unending interest? Are the two statements in bold print above saying the same thing? Some think so (sometimes quite vehemently) and some think not (sometimes quietly vehemently).
I think that very few (maybe one or two ) disagree with the statement "we are not saved on the basis of righteous works."
I think that there are more (including myself) who disagree with the statement (conclusion) that "our righteous works have ZERO to do with salvation."
Those of you who think both statements are identical cannot make heads or tails out of what some of the rest (of us) are trying to say. So some (of you) find it easiest just to call us nice sounding names and throw out all we say with a calloused reference to "they're works people!"
I think there are least two critical things going on:
(1) All of come from different backgrounds with different emphases, approaches, past pains, etc. We look at things from different perspectives
(2) The language of the second statement can be interpreted in different ways: What are works? What is salvation? What does "zero to do with" mean?
One point I would point out from a grammatical perspective is that the phrase "has zero to do with" is very unclear and ambiguous. Just put a phrase like that in a true/false question on an exam and you will find out that hard thinking students will not all see it the same!
I decided to go back to the opening post: Titus 3:5
The different versions of that verse give it a bit differently, but here is the NASV as originally posted:
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5
What does the verse say about works? It says that we are not saved on the basis of righteous works.
The opening post says (concludes) that thus our righteous works have ZERO to do with salvation.
So what is all the hubbub and debate and wrangling and unending interest? Are the two statements in bold print above saying the same thing? Some think so (sometimes quite vehemently
) and some think not (sometimes quietly vehemently). I think that very few (maybe one or two ) disagree with the statement "
I think that there are more (including myself) who disagree with the statement (conclusion) that "our righteous works have ZERO to do with salvation."
Those of you who think both statements are identical cannot make heads or tails out of what some of the rest (of us) are trying to say. So some (of you) find it easiest just to call us nice sounding names and throw out all we say with a calloused reference to "they're works people!"
I think there are least two critical things going on:
(1) All of come from different backgrounds with different emphases, approaches, past pains, etc. We look at things from different perspectives
(2) The language of the second statement can be interpreted in different ways: What are works? What is salvation? What does "zero to do with" mean?
One point I would point out from a grammatical perspective is that the phrase "has zero to do with" is very unclear and ambiguous. Just put a phrase like that in a true/false question on an exam and you will find out that hard thinking students will not all see it the same!
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Hi Ralph...Some people take Christianity for a test drive , they like the idea that they can go to heaven and live happy ever after , but once their honeymoon period is over , the truth self comes out and they no longer want anything to do with it , these people are not nor where saved...
We real Christians , who follow Christ because we hear His voice are His , we are the branches on the Vine , the Vine is dressed by God Himself...We walk in the works that God had and has planned for us ...God forbid should I have a stroke or get run over and end up disabled and can only blink my eyes , what then , what if these things happened and I cannot do anything , how would Jesus view me when He comes back , there is no rule for able and disabled , blessed are those who have not seen yet believe...
Any works I do are only because of the Holy Spirit leading me to do , some people like myself who has suffered severe mental illness episodes can sometimes only manage to get out of bed to use the bathroom , sometimes I have been stuck in bed for months , but then we are reminded that Jesus has not left us on our own to travel this narrow path , He has the Helper , the Comforter , the Counselor etc , that He has given us , we do not need to rely on ourselves , it is His Will and His Will alone that drives us , and there are lazy Christians who will have their works burnt in the fire , but they are still saved , maybe I have gone of topic a bit , but as I grow in Christ , I become more secure in Him , He becomes more precious to me , everyday I love Him more then the day before ...
I used to think I was not doing enough work as a Christian , but as I look back over these past 2 1/2 years , I see how He is changing my heart , my ways of old into newness and becoming more like Him , I have done none of this , if it was my work I would pat myself but I can`t because all the work is from Him...
So if it is Christ who enables us to change , why would we have to worry about when He finds us for those who are in Him , He will find us just as He has made us , into His likeness , and those who have depended on themselves and took away His glory through their own pride and self righteousness , it will be them that He says " Go away I never knew you "...xox...
We real Christians , who follow Christ because we hear His voice are His , we are the branches on the Vine , the Vine is dressed by God Himself...We walk in the works that God had and has planned for us ...God forbid should I have a stroke or get run over and end up disabled and can only blink my eyes , what then , what if these things happened and I cannot do anything , how would Jesus view me when He comes back , there is no rule for able and disabled , blessed are those who have not seen yet believe...
Any works I do are only because of the Holy Spirit leading me to do , some people like myself who has suffered severe mental illness episodes can sometimes only manage to get out of bed to use the bathroom , sometimes I have been stuck in bed for months , but then we are reminded that Jesus has not left us on our own to travel this narrow path , He has the Helper , the Comforter , the Counselor etc , that He has given us , we do not need to rely on ourselves , it is His Will and His Will alone that drives us , and there are lazy Christians who will have their works burnt in the fire , but they are still saved , maybe I have gone of topic a bit , but as I grow in Christ , I become more secure in Him , He becomes more precious to me , everyday I love Him more then the day before ...
I used to think I was not doing enough work as a Christian , but as I look back over these past 2 1/2 years , I see how He is changing my heart , my ways of old into newness and becoming more like Him , I have done none of this , if it was my work I would pat myself but I can`t because all the work is from Him...
So if it is Christ who enables us to change , why would we have to worry about when He finds us for those who are in Him , He will find us just as He has made us , into His likeness , and those who have depended on themselves and took away His glory through their own pride and self righteousness , it will be them that He says " Go away I never knew you "...xox...
This has been a long, long, thread and it keeps going . . . Why?
I decided to go back to the opening post: Titus 3:5
The different versions of that verse give it a bit differently, but here is the NASV as originally posted:
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5
What does the verse say about works? It says that we are not saved on the basis of righteous works.
The opening post says (concludes) that thus our righteous works have ZERO to do with salvation.
So what is all the hubbub and debate and wrangling and unending interest? Are the two statements in bold print above saying the same thing? Some think so (sometimes quite vehemently) and some think not (sometimes quietly vehemently).
I think that very few (maybe one or two ) disagree with the statement "we are not saved on the basis of righteous works."
I think that there are more (including myself) who disagree with the statement (conclusion) that "our righteous works have ZERO to do with salvation."
Those of you who think both statements are identical cannot make heads or tails out of what some of the rest (of us) are trying to say. So some (of you) find it easiest just to call us nice sounding names and throw out all we say with a calloused reference to "they're works people!"
I think there are least two critical things going on:
(1) All of come from different backgrounds with different emphases, approaches, past pains, etc. We look at things from different perspectives
(2) The language of the second statement can be interpreted in different ways: What are works? What is salvation? What does "zero to do with" mean?
One point I would point out from a grammatical perspective is that the phrase "has zero to do with" is very unclear and ambiguous. Just put a phrase like that in a true/false question on an exam and you will find out that hard thinking students will not all see it the same!
I decided to go back to the opening post: Titus 3:5
The different versions of that verse give it a bit differently, but here is the NASV as originally posted:
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5
What does the verse say about works? It says that we are not saved on the basis of righteous works.
The opening post says (concludes) that thus our righteous works have ZERO to do with salvation.
So what is all the hubbub and debate and wrangling and unending interest? Are the two statements in bold print above saying the same thing? Some think so (sometimes quite vehemently
) and some think not (sometimes quietly vehemently). I think that very few (maybe one or two ) disagree with the statement "
I think that there are more (including myself) who disagree with the statement (conclusion) that "our righteous works have ZERO to do with salvation."
Those of you who think both statements are identical cannot make heads or tails out of what some of the rest (of us) are trying to say. So some (of you) find it easiest just to call us nice sounding names and throw out all we say with a calloused reference to "they're works people!"
I think there are least two critical things going on:
(1) All of come from different backgrounds with different emphases, approaches, past pains, etc. We look at things from different perspectives
(2) The language of the second statement can be interpreted in different ways: What are works? What is salvation? What does "zero to do with" mean?
One point I would point out from a grammatical perspective is that the phrase "has zero to do with" is very unclear and ambiguous. Just put a phrase like that in a true/false question on an exam and you will find out that hard thinking students will not all see it the same!
It is not ambiguous at all and is clear....
We are not saved, kept saved or maintain the "saved state" by any work of righteousness which we have done, do or don't do.....
Salvation is an UNEARNED position based upon faith, grace and the GIFT of GOD
This thread is and has always been about how salvation is acquired by men......the bible is clear....
By the sole act of BELIEF into the work of Christ and confession of said belief.
ANY work, fruit, that may come in a believers life is the DIRECT result of the FAITH and SALVATION one already possesses in CHRIST
The fact that you say what you say above points to the fact that you EMBELLISH faith with your own works to gain or keep (cannot be lost nor kept) by your own merit and not the merit, faith, work and gift of Christ.......
N
the reason i continue to post here is because i personally came here pointing my finger
with a sinless perfection doctrined based on my performance
i only had assurance when i thought i was walking sinless
to me
salvation was a revolving door i was walking in and out of...
God used this place to make me question my understanding
and through much prayer
begging
crying
study
little by little i was broken
until i submitted to His righteousness
now
ALL the scriptures that bothered me before
things that used to seem to conflict each other
all opened up
and God has blessed me with assurance
its an amazing gift
based on what HES done
HIS works
if i can help even 1 person
ill post here every day for a year against those in error
with a sinless perfection doctrined based on my performance
i only had assurance when i thought i was walking sinless
to me
salvation was a revolving door i was walking in and out of...
God used this place to make me question my understanding
and through much prayer
begging
crying
study
little by little i was broken
until i submitted to His righteousness
now
ALL the scriptures that bothered me before
things that used to seem to conflict each other
all opened up
and God has blessed me with assurance
its an amazing gift
based on what HES done
HIS works
if i can help even 1 person
ill post here every day for a year against those in error
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