God LIED!
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What I'm trying to point out is the analogies are ridiculous in regard to eternal security. All the work required for salvation was done by Jesus. The issue is finished. Paid in full. The fruit we produce after salvation will determine our usefulness here and now, and are the basis for rewards later at the Judgment Seat of Christ. They justify us before men, not before God.
We can be sidelined for poor performance and not used of God, but we will never be cast out of the family. As long as Jesus remains holy, righteous, spotless, and sinless, so will we.
We can be sidelined for poor performance and not used of God, but we will never be cast out of the family. As long as Jesus remains holy, righteous, spotless, and sinless, so will we.
Greeting Budman,
I come at this differently. If I am going to my death because of what I believe, I better
be sure I believe it and understand the consequences.
Now that is security of faith. It is rock solid, founded in Jesus and the cross.
It is about ultimate realities and sin that breaks society and life apart.
What you are talking sounds like fluff, things that say no matter what I do, I am
secure, which appears to be a lawless person grabbing at straws.
If you take seriously Christ and His message and have put your life on the line,
you know what I am talking about.
If one has just have a flim-flam view of God, as a crutch because one grew up in
church and have anxiety issues, it has nothing to do with God, and everything
to do with anxiety. Now I have great sympathy with anxiety, but none with
projecting this into theology.
This is why I have little time for security freaks.
I come at this differently. If I am going to my death because of what I believe, I better
be sure I believe it and understand the consequences.
Now that is security of faith. It is rock solid, founded in Jesus and the cross.
It is about ultimate realities and sin that breaks society and life apart.
What you are talking sounds like fluff, things that say no matter what I do, I am
secure, which appears to be a lawless person grabbing at straws.
If you take seriously Christ and His message and have put your life on the line,
you know what I am talking about.
If one has just have a flim-flam view of God, as a crutch because one grew up in
church and have anxiety issues, it has nothing to do with God, and everything
to do with anxiety. Now I have great sympathy with anxiety, but none with
projecting this into theology.
This is why I have little time for security freaks.
I am secure. No matter what. My salvation is not based on whether I be a good boy, or not. Do you know why? Because every single sin I have ever committed, or will commit in the future, was paid for at the cross through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
There is no condemnation left for me. Jesus took it all.
Jesus is a "security freak" as well. He said no man can snatch us out of His hand, or the Father's. No man means you, me, or anyone else. Nothing in all creation can do it.
Have a good day, Peter.
There is no condemnation left for me. Jesus took it all.
Jesus is a "security freak" as well. He said no man can snatch us out of His hand, or the Father's. No man means you, me, or anyone else. Nothing in all creation can do it.
Have a good day, Peter.
E
I will never comprehend how people can have security in self. Look at mankinds history. What man has been faithful till the end? Abraham was faithful, yet he sinned, David was faithful Yet he sinned, Noah was faithful, yet he sinned. About the only one God let us know about who he does not talk about sin, was Daniel, Yet if we read in Daniel 9, Daniel admits he is just as guilty as ALL his Jewish brothers and sisters. And when even HE met an anger, he fell down as dead because he KNEW he was unworthy.
So how can all these people think they are faithfull? they are trustworthy? They can save themselves? They are righteous enough??
it boggles my mind.
All those men trusted in God for security, Who did they praise with Thanksgiving over and over (david many times in Psalms) yet these people praise how HOLY and UPRIGHT they are.
It is sickening.
Then you have a problem. Jesus said to "be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48)
Yes, it is. The Bible says if you even tell a lie you will have your part in the lake of fire. (Revelation 21:28)
Oh, and you're also guilty of adultery; (Matthew 5:28) And no adulterer will inherit the Kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9)
Looks like you're in a heap of trouble.
Unless.........someone paid for all of your sins and you are declared not guilty.
Yes, it is. The Bible says if you even tell a lie you will have your part in the lake of fire. (Revelation 21:28)
Oh, and you're also guilty of adultery; (Matthew 5:28) And no adulterer will inherit the Kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9)
Looks like you're in a heap of trouble.
Unless.........someone paid for all of your sins and you are declared not guilty.
First of all, not all sins are willful. As much as I, or anyone, tries to avoid sin, we are occasionally going to trip up or be put into a difficult position. Look at Rahab, an ancestor of Jesus Christ. Rahab was put in the tough spot of telling a lie to save the lives of Joshua's two spies. Would it have better for her to avoid sin the sin of lying by telling the truth about the spies she had hidden in her home?
Second, even knowing that it's not possible to lead a perfectly sinless life like Christ did, I believe you should try your best not to sin. And I think assurance theology is dangerous. I think some people use assurance of salvation as a rationalization for willful sin. I also suspect that people who purportedly repent but then go on leading lives of sin probably did not repent in the first place. But if they did truly repent, but then go on sinning, I would encourage them to read about the consequences:
I believe what I read in the bible. And this verse seems fairly straightforward. /jmho
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As much as I love conversing with you about bible topics, I don't get paid when I goof around on the Internet. I've got to get to work. Godspeed to you in your Christian endeavors!
Second, even knowing that it's not possible to lead a perfectly sinless life like Christ did, I believe you should try your best not to sin. And I think assurance theology is dangerous. I think some people use assurance of salvation as a rationalization for willful sin. I also suspect that people who purportedly repent but then go on leading lives of sin probably did not repent in the first place. But if they did truly repent, but then go on sinning, I would encourage them to read about the consequences:
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, (Hebrews 10:26)
I believe what I read in the bible. And this verse seems fairly straightforward. /jmho
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As much as I love conversing with you about bible topics, I don't get paid when I goof around on the Internet. I've got to get to work. Godspeed to you in your Christian endeavors!
E
Your looking at it from mans point of view and not Gods.
In gods point of view, Yes they are equally willful, sinful, and according to scripture. Both has the "death penalty" as consequences of those sins.
James 2: 10, whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet STUMBLE in one point, He is guilty of all.
Jesus said if you look at a woman with lust, You have committed adulty, So your willful adulterous sin made you just as guilty as Jeffery Dahmer. As Adolf Hitler. As mother Theresa, as the pope. as ALL men who have lived why? For all have sinned and FALL SHORT.
Fall short of what?
In gods point of view, Yes they are equally willful, sinful, and according to scripture. Both has the "death penalty" as consequences of those sins.
James 2: 10, whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet STUMBLE in one point, He is guilty of all.
Jesus said if you look at a woman with lust, You have committed adulty, So your willful adulterous sin made you just as guilty as Jeffery Dahmer. As Adolf Hitler. As mother Theresa, as the pope. as ALL men who have lived why? For all have sinned and FALL SHORT.
Fall short of what?
E
people need to Stop excusing their sin, If you lusted after a lady, You willfully sinned, Period. God promised he will not allow temptation of any part that we are not able to walk away from. If we allow that temptation to cause us to sin, we have willfully sinned, Because we have not loved others, and we have not loved God, we have loved self (the root of sin) for that moment in time where we fell.
Those are harsh statements. We pray to God to not lead us into temptation, but to deliver us from evil. That sounds like something we are already in, and needs his deliverance from these things daily. If we are not in it, we will need no deliverance,and this is a believer's prayer. If we fall into temptation, then he will provide an escape for us to come out of that temptation., meaning already in the act of sinning.
Did Rahab do it against her will?
Agreed.
Do you still sin? Do you sin every single day? (I already know the answer, btw).
Do you still sin?
Have you willfully sinned after receiving knowledge of the truth? Do you continue to sin?
That verse is speaking about those who made a false, initial profession of faith, or heard and understood the gospel and rejected it. For those who remain in that state there is no remission of their sins.
If it were talking about willfully sinning after becoming truly saved - then we are all damned, and contradicts what the Bible teaches when it says the blood of Jesus has cleansed us of ALL our sins. Past, present, and future. (1 John 1:9)
Agreed.
Do you still sin? Do you sin every single day? (I already know the answer, btw).
Do you still sin?
Have you willfully sinned after receiving knowledge of the truth? Do you continue to sin?
That verse is speaking about those who made a false, initial profession of faith, or heard and understood the gospel and rejected it. For those who remain in that state there is no remission of their sins.
If it were talking about willfully sinning after becoming truly saved - then we are all damned, and contradicts what the Bible teaches when it says the blood of Jesus has cleansed us of ALL our sins. Past, present, and future. (1 John 1:9)
I am a secure believer in Jesus Christ and believe I have 100% assurance in Christ and know that I have been redeemed and have an eternal reward. But what if tomorrow I choose to forsake Christ, cease believing in Him, and even become an agnostic or atheist? What then?
This is a real question for me: I have a brother-in-law who was a believer living victoriously and clearly for the Lord, but now is an avowed atheist. Is he saved? Most people who believe in OSAS tell me that my brother-in-law must not have been a Christian.
It seems to me that this is judging my brother-in-law by his works. His works no longer match up so that proves he could never have been a believer.
Thus I assume that OSAS supporters would say the same of me if I became an avowed atheist. They would tell me you could never have been really born again.
I know that today I am believing in Jesus Christ as my Saviour, Redeemer, and Lord, and on that basis I have 100% assurance that I am saved. If I adopted belief in OSAS, I would need to be sure my works kept matching up, or I would be told that I was never really born again.
This is a real question for me: I have a brother-in-law who was a believer living victoriously and clearly for the Lord, but now is an avowed atheist. Is he saved? Most people who believe in OSAS tell me that my brother-in-law must not have been a Christian.
It seems to me that this is judging my brother-in-law by his works. His works no longer match up so that proves he could never have been a believer.
Thus I assume that OSAS supporters would say the same of me if I became an avowed atheist. They would tell me you could never have been really born again.
I know that today I am believing in Jesus Christ as my Saviour, Redeemer, and Lord, and on that basis I have 100% assurance that I am saved. If I adopted belief in OSAS, I would need to be sure my works kept matching up, or I would be told that I was never really born again.
Chester, if your brother-in-law was truly saved, even his present state of atheism will not change that. Once we have believed, we are sealed - and that seal can never be broken. Many Christians have denied Jesus throughout history for various reasons (torture, anger, illness, fear, hopelessness, etc.) but they returned. Give him time.
If he was truly saved, saved he will remain - because salvation isn't based on our performance, our loyalty, or our lifestyle. Salvation is entirely of Christ. We have His righteousness imputed to us. And as long as He remains righteous, so will we.
No matter what.
What if he dies in his current state of unbelief?
What if I decided to shoot him dead today with my high powered rifle? (Forgive the rude imagery - I am just trying to understand! ) Are you saying that I could not kill him until he returns (to God)?
What if I decided to shoot him dead today with my high powered rifle? (Forgive the rude imagery - I am just trying to understand!
) Are you saying that I could not kill him until he returns (to God)?
No where does the Bible say that once we have believed, we'd better keep believing, or we'll be lost. That takes the emphasis off of Jesus and puts it on us.
If we have to do anything to maintain our salvation, it no longer is a free gift and instead becomes a wage. Something we've earned. Grace would longer be grace.
There is not a single example in scripture where one was saved, and for some reason, lost their salvation.
It's not even possible.
Jesus said nothing in all creation (including ourselves, as we are created) can separate us from God. He also said no one (and again, that includes ourselves) can snatch us out of His hand, or the Father's.
Although I concur with brother Budman, from the scenario you laid out, I do not think your brother-in-law was really saved. Regardless of his confession and actions yrs ago.
There are 2 elements to Salvation. Confession that Jesus Christ is Lord, and belief that His Father raised Him from the grave,
We can only see the former. We CANNOT see someone's heart. We all know the verse that if they were Christians they would have remained Christians. Their leaving is proof that they were not. I am not saying your brother-in -law is forever lost, but I draw a distinction between wandering from the Lord because of sin, and leaving the Lord because of unbelief.
The Prodigal son never believed his father wasn't his father, he only believed his behavior caused him to no longer be his father's son. I think believing no God no longer exists, after confessing that He does, is of a different order than a true born again son straying off into a sinful lifestyle. I think God will do whatever is necessary to draw His Child back to Him.
There are 2 elements to Salvation. Confession that Jesus Christ is Lord, and belief that His Father raised Him from the grave,
We can only see the former. We CANNOT see someone's heart. We all know the verse that if they were Christians they would have remained Christians. Their leaving is proof that they were not. I am not saying your brother-in -law is forever lost, but I draw a distinction between wandering from the Lord because of sin, and leaving the Lord because of unbelief.
The Prodigal son never believed his father wasn't his father, he only believed his behavior caused him to no longer be his father's son. I think believing no God no longer exists, after confessing that He does, is of a different order than a true born again son straying off into a sinful lifestyle. I think God will do whatever is necessary to draw His Child back to Him.