Baptism: is it required to be baptized in water?

[DJ2]

*Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned” so believe and baptized are not equal. So what happened to baptism in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete staments? BELIEVES. *Hermeneutics.

Jesus is not attempting to "clarify" Himself in the same breath, for goodness sakes its one sentence!

You really think that for a statement to be true each positive point must have a corresponding negative point?

No clear minded person would read this sentence and assume the second point is invalid without its counterpoint.

Would you use this reasoning on the following verse:

He who covers his sins will not prosper, but whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy. Proverbs 28:13

Since it does not state, "the one who forsakes his sins will not prosper" does this mean the forsaking of sins is not needed? Are you willing to use your faulty human logic on this verse as well?

 

[Gabriel2020]

Let God be true and every man a liar. Carnal minds think carnal, and spiritual think spiritual. If aperson cannot understand the difference between carnal mined and spiriyual minded, then that person is not saved.

 

[Donmech]

D....,

That's most likely the reason Christ answered John thusly..."to finish the cleansing process".

please provide references to the above, thank you

 

[mailmandan]

We cannot ignore the verbiage used in Mark 16:16 to suit our theology.

You cannot ignore the second half of Mark 16:16 (which clarifies the first clause) and John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 in order to suit your theology and accommodate your biased church doctrine.

No matter how "unusual" of a case you may come up with, it does not negate what Jesus said.

No matter how hard you try to force Mark 16:16(a) to teach "baptized or condemned" it does not negate what Jesus said in Mark 16:16(b) and John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26.

Salvation is based upon belief and baptism.

False. (Mark 16:16(b); Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17-18; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Condemnation is based upon simple unbelief. This is what the verse states. No amount of your "harmonizing" will change this.

Condemnation is based upon UNBELIEF and not a lack of water baptism. Again, the omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." No amount of flawed hermeneutics will change this.

 

[mailmandan]

It appears some have to rewrite the text to fit their man made doctrine, Mark 16:16 plainly states belief and baptized are both requirements with the conjugal "and" and proves one cannot be true without the other, if you don't believe baptized is a requirement then you don't believe the word of God

It appears that some (through flawed hermeneutics) have to build their doctrine on one half of one verse while ignoring the second half of the verse (which clarifies the first clause) and what Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 in order to fit their man made doctrine and accommodate their biased church doctrine. If you don't believe it's the lack of belief that causes condemnation and not the lack of baptism in Mark 16:16(b) and you don't believe it's belief that causes salvation in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 and not baptism, then you don't believe the word of God.

 

[mailmandan]

Jesus is not attempting to "clarify" Himself in the same breath, for goodness sakes its one sentence!

Once again: Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

*Jesus does clarify the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16(b) and Jesus DID NOT say that whoever is not baptized will be condemned. *In John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26, what is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete staments? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

You really think that for a statement to be true each positive point must have a corresponding negative point?

No need for your faulty human logic. Scripture MUST harmonize with Scripture -- (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *Perfect Harmony*

No clear minded person would read this sentence and assume the second point is invalid without its counterpoint.

No clear minded person would read Mark 16:16(b); John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 and assume that whoever is not water baptized will be condemned.

Would you use this reasoning on the following verse:

He who covers his sins will not prosper, but whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy. Proverbs 28:13

Since it does not state, "the one who forsakes his sins will not prosper" does this mean the forsaking of sins is not needed? Are you willing to use your faulty human logic on this verse as well?

It's you who has used faulty human logic on this verse. Covers his sins is the opposite of confesses and forsakes them and vice versa. It's one or the other. Now Mark 16:16 is composed of two basic statements. 1. He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2. He who does not believe will be condemned.

While this verse tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they will be saved), *it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized.* In order for this verse to teach that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, a third statement would be necessary, such as, "He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned" or "He who is not baptized will be condemned." *But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse.

"He who takes his medication and washes it down with water will be made well, but he who does not take his medication will remain sick."

Of course it's the medication that makes one well and not the water, but it logically follows that we wash the medication down with water. If no water is available and you take the medication dry, you will still be made well BECAUSE OF THE MEDICATION.

*It's the same with water baptism. It logically follows that we get water baptized after we BELIEVE and are saved, but if no water is available (particularly due to a death bed conversion) you will still be saved because you BELIEVE which is in harmony with Mark 16:16(b); John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43-47; 13:39; 16:31; etc..

 

[Jabberjaw]

If one does not believe Mark 16:16 does not make baptism a requirement for salvation does not "believe" the word of God therefore making "he that believeth not will be condemned"

 

[mailmandan]

If one does not believe Mark 16:16 does not make baptism a requirement for salvation does not "believe" the word of God therefore making "he that believeth not will be condemned"

Mark 16:16 is not about believing in your baptism for salvation, but believing in Christ for salvation, as we also read in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6;29,40,47; 11:25,26. This demonstrates what you have placed your belief/trust/reliance in for salvation -- "your baptism" and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE.

*John 3:18 - He who believes IN HIM is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already (because he does not believe/trust in his baptism to save him? NO!) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. Not believe in their baptism. Whatever you are trusting in for salvation, that's what you believe in.

 

[Prov910]

Or one could believe the word of God at Acts 16:31. Faith leads to salvation through the grace of God.

================================

For as long as we have worshiped God people have been trying to add ceremony into the mix as a requirement. Because ceremony is provided by man, and some men want you to believe they play a necessary role in providing salvation to others. Salvation is from God through His grace. /jmho

 

[DJ2]

Or one could believe the word of God at Acts 16:31. Faith leads to salvation through the grace of God.

================================

For as long as we have worshiped God people have been trying to add ceremony into the mix as a requirement. Because ceremony is provided by man, and some men want you to believe they play a necessary role in providing salvation to others. Salvation is from God through His grace. /jmho

For as long as we have worshiped God people have been trying to put their own reasoning into the mix of the requirements of God. Because we desire to understand God in accordance to our sensibilities, we change the purpose of His commands to fit our theology. God, the source of eternal salvation for all those who would obey Him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Mark 16:16 KJV
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The book says "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"

It doesn't say believeth only, the "and" is in the Greek text and requires both operands on both sides of it to be true or it is all false. It is a logical conjugation.
If one truly believes they would be baptized, to not be baptized is to not believe, it is what the text says must be done to be saved

Has sea bass returned?

What baptism is spoken of here? Jesus also said in another passage (John) that he who believes is not condemned, he who does nto believe is condemned already? WHy did Mark say it but not john? Did John get it wrong? Or did mark get it wrong? Or Mark talking about a spiritual baptism which is automatic and not a physical baptism which is a work of righteousness which we have done?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There are scriptures other than those already posted, which are controlling, such as; Peter 3;21, Acts 2; 38, 22;16, Rom. 6;3, Matt 28;19, Gal. 3;26.27 Mark 16;16., et al.

Perhaps you would like to try your anecdotal approach for those also....?

The problem is the assumption that all of those speak of water baptism. That is plainly NOT the case.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Mark 16:16 has a conjugal "and" that puts believe and baptized equal, no man can change that

It does NOT say water baptism.

end of story.

 

[JaumeJ]

[h=2]Baptism: is it required to be baptized in water? Stick to the OP, it is enough.[/h]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It appears some have to rewrite the text to fit their man made doctrine, Mark 16:16 plainly states belief and baptized are both requirements with the conjugal "and" and proves one cannot be true without the other, if you don't believe baptized is a requirement then you don't believe the word of God

Again, IT DOES NOT SAY WATER, so please get off this line of reasoning, You are in FAIL mode.

You have to take Mark 16 with John to interpret what baptism Mark is speaking of. You can not seperate the two like you and others are trying to do.

Since baptism is NOT mentioned in john, and it is also clear that the ONLY condition for being condemned is lack of faith (he did not say who who believes but is not baptised is condemned already) then you can NOT interpret Mark as saying one must be water baptised. It causes mark and Johnt o contradict, and makes the word of God questionable. And not complete.

 

[Jabberjaw]

John never said anything to contradict Mark, Jesus said through Mark you must believe AND be baptized, both required, if you have a false on either side of the and, the whole is false, for one to not believe that baptism is not a requirement after reading Mark 16:16, then they do not "believe" in Him

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If one does not believe Mark 16:16 does not make baptism a requirement for salvation does not "believe" the word of God therefore making "he that believeth not will be condemned"

Lol.. There you go folks. This man has placed the whole gospel of Christ to one half of one verse.

He has proved he is a reliable source of doctrinal truths because he can relate the WHOLE gospel to one verse in a book of 66 books, and many many chapters and verses.

It does not matter that LONG after jesus departed this earth, Paul told Timothy that as a child he had enough understanding of scripture (mark was nto even written yet, or was john or the rest of the gospels) to come to God and be saved.

It does not take much thought or study to know this half a verse is not talking about water baptism. It can’t be.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

John never said anything to contradict Mark, Jesus said through Mark you must believe AND be baptized, both required, if you have a false on either side of the and, the whole is false, for one to not believe that baptism is not a requirement after reading Mark 16:16, then they do not "believe" in Him

Your right he did not.

Because Mark never mentioned water, He was talking about spiritual baptism/ no water was involved,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If water baptism is required, We are saved by works of righteousness which we have done, And NOT by Gods mercy, but through the washing and new birth of our pastor immersing us in water as we did the WORK of water baptism.

 

[DJ2]

Once again: Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

*Jesus does clarify the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16(b) and Jesus DID NOT say that whoever is not baptized will be condemned. *In John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26, what is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete staments? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

No need for your faulty human logic. Scripture MUST harmonize with Scripture -- (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *Perfect Harmony*

No clear minded person would read Mark 16:16(b); John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 and assume that whoever is not water baptized will be condemned.

It's you who has used faulty human logic on this verse. Covers his sins is the opposite of confesses and forsakes them and vice versa. It's one or the other. Now Mark 16:16 is composed of two basic statements. 1. He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2. He who does not believe will be condemned.

While this verse tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they will be saved), *it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized.* In order for this verse to teach that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, a third statement would be necessary, such as, "He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned" or "He who is not baptized will be condemned." *But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse.

"He who takes his medication and washes it down with water will be made well, but he who does not take his medication will remain sick."

Of course it's the medication that makes one well and not the water, but it logically follows that we wash the medication down with water. If no water is available and you take the medication dry, you will still be made well BECAUSE OF THE MEDICATION.

*It's the same with water baptism. It logically follows that we get water baptized after we BELIEVE and are saved, but if no water is available (particularly due to a death bed conversion) you will still be saved because you BELIEVE which is in harmony with Mark 16:16(b); John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43-47; 13:39; 16:31; etc..

"He who takes his medication and washes it down with water will be made well, but he who does not take his medication will remain sick."

1. "He who takes his medication" and "washes it down with water" are two separate clauses that mean the same. Unlike "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" which is one clause.
2. There is a tacit understanding that to take medication there is a necessary proper action, "will remain sick" implies that action was not taken.

You are simply grasping at straws.

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved but whoever does not believe will be condemned".

And you believe the above sixteen word sentence means whoever just believes will be saved?

No one writes this way.