Not By Works

[NoNameMcgee]

The SEED is incorruptible not the man. Only through faith and obedience which is love for God can a man be made incorruptible after the last trump.

Do you really have a genuine FAITH and do you OBEY God?

sorry for taking so long


i never even noticed you sent something directed to me
what do you mean when you say obedience and obey


but yes i have a genuine faith in Him



also i think you implied you can lose salvation after being born again

thats not true

 

[VCO]

What does the once saved always saved argument mean if you're not even born again to begin with as evidenced by your unchanged life? It doesn't, of course. It's a distraction that soothes the minds of people who are not born again. It's the great deception of the end times.


(you=anybody)

Here are several excerpts from several different ONCE SAVED ALWAY SAVED Churches, that PROVE you have a distorted view of ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED Churches.

Indian Hills Community Church:
[h=2]Security, Assurance and Responsibility[/h] We believe all the saved—those in whom God has accomplished His transforming work of grace—are kept by His power and thus, are secure[SUP]15[/SUP] in Christ forever. This assurance, however, is not the occasion for sin, for God in holiness cannot tolerate persistent sin in His children, and in infinite love He corrects them. True faith in Christ is expressed by a fruitful, God-pleasing life[SUP]16[/SUP] (John 10:27-29; Rom. 8:29-39; 1 John 5:13; Heb. 12:6; Matt. 7:20; James 2:20).
[h=2]Sanctification[/h] We believe that God, in the Scriptures, has given us everything pertaining to life and godliness. This includes salvation from the penalty of sin and just as surely the provision of sanctification (separation) from sin. Sanctification from sin affects both the positional and practical aspects. Positional sanctification as a work of the Holy Spirit is complete and is without further growth; however, practical sanctification, a result of the work of the Spirit in regeneration using the Word of God, provides the nourishment[SUP]17[/SUP] for growth in maturity in Christ. While practical sanctification is assured by the Word and the Spirit, it is yet imperfect[SUP]18[/SUP] in this life. There is some element of corruption in every part of the fallen nature which is the source for the war between the flesh and the Spirit. The maturing to obedience is possible for believers as they feed on the Word, submit to the Spirit of God and are in fellowship[SUP]19[/SUP] with other believers for service and encouragement (John 17:17; 1 Cor. 1:30; Rom. 6:19, 22; Heb. 10:25; 1 Pet. 2:2; 2 Pet. 1:3).

Grace To You - Radio Program - Dr. John MacArthur:


[h=2]Salvation[/h] We teach that salvation is wholly of God by grace on the basis of the redemption of Jesus Christ, the merit of His shed blood, and not on the basis of human merit or works (John 1:12; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8-10; 1 Peter 1:18-19).
[h=3]Regeneration[/h] We teach that regeneration is a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit by which the divine nature and divine life are given (John 3:3-7; Titus 3:5). It is instantaneous and is accomplished solely by the power of the Holy Spirit through the instrumentality of the Word of God (John 5:24) when the repentant sinner, as enabled by the Holy Spirit, responds in faith to the divine provision of salvation. Genuine regeneration is manifested by fruits worthy of repentance as demonstrated in righteous attitudes and conduct. Good works are the proper evidence and fruit of regeneration (1 Corinthians 6:19-20; Ephesians 2:10), and will be experienced to the extent that the believer submits to the control of the Holy Spirit in his life through faithful obedience to the Word of God (Ephesians 5:17-21; Philippians 2:12b; Colossians 3:16; 2 Peter 1:4-10). This obedience causes the believer to be increasingly conformed to the image of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 3:18). Such a conformity is climaxed in the believer's glorification at Christ's coming (Romans 8:17; 2 Peter 1:4; 1 John 3:2-3).
[h=3]Election[/h] We teach that election is the act of God by which, before the foundation of the world, He chose in Christ those whom He graciously regenerates, saves, and sanctifies (Romans 8:28-30; Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Peter 1:1-2).
We teach that sovereign election does not contradict or negate the responsibility of man to repent and trust Christ as Savior and Lord (Ezekiel 18:23, 32; 33:11; John 3:18-19, 36; 5:40; Romans 9:22-23; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; Revelation 22:17). Nevertheless, since sovereign grace includes the means of receiving the gift of salvation as well as the gift itself, sovereign election will result in what God determines. All whom the Father calls to Himself will come in faith and all who come in faith the Father will receive (John 6:37-40, 44; Acts 13:48; James 4:8).
We teach that the unmerited favor that God grants to totally depraved sinners is not related to any initiative of their own part or to God's anticipation of what they might do by their own will, but is solely of His sovereign grace and mercy (Ephesians 1:4-7; Titus 3:4-7; 1 Peter 1:2).
We teach that election should not be looked upon as based merely on abstract sovereignty. God is truly sovereign, but He exercises this sovereignty in harmony with His other attributes, especially His omniscience, justice, holiness, wisdom, grace, and love (Romans 9:11-16). This sovereignty will always exalt the will of God in a manner totally consistent with His character as revealed in the life of our Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 11:25-28; 2 Timothy 1:9).
[h=3]Justification[/h] We teach that justification before God is an act of God (Romans 8:33) by which He declares righteous those who, through faith in Christ, repent of their sins (Luke 13:3; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 11:18; Romans 2:4; 2 Corinthians 7:10; Isaiah 55:6-7) and confess Him as sovereign Lord (Romans 10:9-10; 1 Corinthians 12:3; 2 Corinthians 4:5; Philippians 2:11). This righteousness is apart from any virtue or work of man (Romans 3:20; 4:6) and involves the imputation of our sins to Christ (Colossians 2:14; 1 Peter 2:24) and the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us (1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Corinthians 5:21). By this means God is enabled to "be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus" (Romans 3:26).
[h=3]Sanctification[/h] We teach that every believer is sanctified (set apart) unto God by justification and is therefore declared to be holy and is therefore identified as a saint. This sanctification is positional and instantaneous and should not be confused with progressive sanctification. This sanctification has to do with the believer's standing, not his present walk or condition (Acts 20:32; 1 Corinthians 1:2, 30; 6:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; Hebrews 2:11; 3:1; 10:10, 14; 13:12; 1 Peter 1:2).
We teach that there is also, by the work of the Holy Spirit, a progressive sanctification by which the state of the believer is brought closer to the standing the believer positionally enjoys through justification. Through obedience to the Word of God and the empowering of the Holy Spirit, the believer is able to live a life of increasing holiness in conformity to the will of God, becoming more and more like our Lord Jesus Christ (John 17:17,19; Romans 6:1-22; 2 Corinthians 3:18; 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4; 5:23).
In this respect, we teach that every saved person is involved in a daily conflict—the new creation in Christ doing battle against the flesh—but adequate provision is made for victory through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The struggle nevertheless stays with the believer all through this earthly life and is never completely ended. All claims to the eradication of sin in this life are unscriptural. Eradication of sin is not possible, but the Holy Spirit does provide for victory over sin (Galatians 5:16-25; Ephesians 4:22-24; Philippians 3:12; Colossians 3:9-10; 1 Peter 1:14-16; 1 John 3:5-9).
[h=3]Security[/h]

We teach that all the redeemed, once saved, are kept by God's power and are thus secure in Christ forever (John 5:24; 6:37-40; 10:27-30; Romans 5:9-10; 8:1, 31-39; 1 Corinthians 1:4-8; Ephesians 4:30; Hebrews 7:25; 13:5; 1 Peter 1:5; Jude 24).​

Chapel Hill Bible Church:

​

1. SALVATION:
   We believe that salvation from the penalty of sin is the gift of God's grace. It cannot be gained by meritorious works, but is freely bestowed upon all who put their faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ at Calvary. All who so trust the Savior are forgiven of their sins — past, present, and future — and born into the family of God by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 2:8-9; 1:7; John 1:12).
2. SECURITY, ASSURANCE, AND RESPONSIBILITY:
   We believe that all saved (those whom God has redeemed) are kept by His power and are thus secure in Christ forever. It is their privilege to rejoice in the assurance of their salvation. However, this assurance must not be the occasion for sin, for God in Holiness cannot tolerate persistent sin in His children, and in infinite love He corrects them. True faith in Christ is expressed by a fruitful, God-pleasing life (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:28-29; I John 5;13; Heb. 12:6; Matt. 7:20; James 2:20).

First Baptist of Atlanta - Charles Stanley's Chruch:

​

​

1. Salvation
   We believe that the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross provides the sole basis for forgiveness of sins and salvation, which is the free gift of God’s grace. Salvation is effected by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit and cannot be secured by man’s works or personal merit. Salvation is only appropriated by a person placing his faith in the finished work of Christ. Repentance is a turning toward God and away from sin and is a part of but not separate from believing faith. “The Gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes” and those who receive Jesus Christ by faith are born again, have their sins forgiven, become children of God, are a new creation in Christ, and “are sealed by the Holy spirit unto the day of redemption” being kept by the power of God (Eph. 1:7:13-14; John 1:12-13, John 3:1-7, John 14-16; 2 Cor. 5:17; Rom. 1:16, Rom. 10:9-10; Eph. 2:8-10; Rom. 8:14-17, Rom. 31-39; John 10:27-29, Rom. 14:6; Acts 26:20; 1 Pet. 1:3-5).
2. The Christian Life
   We believe that every Christian should live for Christ and not for himself and should, by the power of the indwelling Spirit, allow Christ to manifest His life through him to God’s glory. By ever increasing obedience to the Word of God, each believer should mature and progressively become more like Jesus. In the power of the Spirit, each believer should live a holy life; not fulfill the lusts of the flesh; exercise his spiritual gifts to build up the body of Christ; witness for Christ; be personally involved in making disciples to fulfill the great commission; perform good works and bear fruit to the glory of God (Gal. 2:20; 1 Pet. 1:15-16, 1 Pet. 2:11; 2 Cor. 5:14-15; Rom. 6:11-13; Eph. 2:10, Eph. 4:11-12, Eph. 4:22-24; 1 Pet. 4:10-11; Acts 1:8; Matt. 28:18-20; Col. 1:10; John 15:8, 16).

 

[dcontroversal]

The following poem makes me think of the workers for and Cain-ologists..........

Works, works, works of gold
Help me stand before the throne
In thy blood I did not trust
Because I know my works a must
If on that day you look at me
Please oh please my works do see
I hope I may, I hope I might make thy kingdom on this night
If on that day you look at me
Please oh please my works do see

Jesus said, WHEN I see the blood I will pass over you.

The just shall live by faith and it is faith that saves and justifies before GOD, not WORKS!

 

[dcontroversal]

Here are several excerpts from several different ONCE SAVED ALWAY SAVED Churches, that PROVE you have a distorted view of ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED Churches.








[/LIST]

[/LIST]
​

It is their fall back fallacy.....the only thing they have to grasp onto is to claim that those who believe in eternal security believe and boast that they can live any way they want.....smoke, mirrors and a flat lie.......​

 

[Rosemaryx]

And if works are not done out of love then they are worthless.
All one is looking for is a reward.

We need to bear in mind. We do not have to love the person we help or forgive but we do so because we love Jesus and we know he loves us.

God has blown my mind a few times when he has asked me to do something for people who I quite frankly did not like.
Then I have found that I have actually come to love them and even like them.
I wonder how many have said that about me?.


He had asked us to love each other and our enemies.

Love is not a feeling, it's an act of our will.

Hi Bill...I was thinking about this yesterday...How can I love my enemies , it drew me back to the things that were done to my children , abuse etc , and then I remembered what Jesus said about a cup of water , so I stopped for a minute and asked myself this " If I saw my enemy on the floor in passing , gasping for breath and in need off help , could I walk on by , and my answer was no , no matter what , I would call an ambulance and sit with them till help arrived...

This made me understand how God has and is changing my heart...It is Gods will that causes us to act , to do His good work , I can not do this act from worldly love , but only from the Love of God that He has put in me...

I am a bit confused with myself to be honest because these enemies of mine I do not like , yet in my heart I know I would help them , how can we not like someone yet can show them an act of love , I can't work that out , but then again all things are possible with God...xox...

 

[dcontroversal]

Hi Bill...I was thinking about this yesterday...How can I love my enemies , it drew me back to the things that were done to my children , abuse etc , and then I remembered what Jesus said about a cup of water , so I stopped for a minute and asked myself this " If I saw my enemy on the floor in passing , gasping for breath and in need off help , could I walk on by , and my answer was no , no matter what , I would call an ambulance and sit with them till help arrived...

This made me understand how God has and is changing my heart...It is Gods will that causes us to act , to do His good work , I can not do this act from worldly love , but only from the Love of God that He has put in me...

I am a bit confused with myself to be honest because these enemies of mine I do not like , yet in my heart I know I would help them , how can we not like someone yet can show them an act of love , I can't work that out , but then again all things are possible with God...xox...

Makes me think of a child.....say your children....You can love your child and yet hate what they do or hate their actions.....

Like an old preacher said once...you don't have to like me, but you do have to love me HAHAH

We can love our enemies in truth, while hating what they do or say and be biblically correct

 

[stonesoffire]

Justification is granted solely on the basis of faith in God's forgiveness. No work necessary to receive that.

We know who has that free gift of justification by how they behave. The children of God and the children of the devil are OBVIOUS this way, John said.

The present onslaught of the forbidden doctrine is bringing hoards of unconverted people into the church and deceiving them into thinking they are born again despite the fact they have unchanged lives and continue in their immoral, ungodly lives.

The forbidden doctrine will win the night. This is the great falling away before Christ comes back. The earthly church will not recover from this. And when the persecution starts these hoards will deny Christ and take the mark of the beast. The great shaking is coming.

Actually, there are those leaving the churches rather than hordes coming in. This is mainstream churches that are dry. But, those alive in the Spirit are flourishing.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Makes me think of a child.....say your children....You can love your child and yet hate what they do or hate their actions.....

Like an old preacher said once...you don't have to like me, but you do have to love me HAHAH

We can love our enemies in truth, while hating what they do or say and be biblically correct

Thanks DCon , I can see that now ...Hate the sin but act in love towards the sinner... , it is separating the person from the act of sin , because no matter what the sin , we are all sinners , is that correct , and at the end of the day , our LORD and Savior died for us all...xox...

 

[stonesoffire]

I was reading in james this am
Thought of you guys
In 5 vs 9 there is something about judgement on brothers who hold grudges.

Uh oh

I was taught to search your own heart first before trying to give a correction to another. One needs to be free when correcting.

 

[BillG]

Actually, there are those leaving the churches rather than hordes coming in. This is mainstream churches that are dry. But, those alive in the Spirit are flourishing.

Breaks my heart.

Yes come to our church. The front door is open.
When they come in then we place burdens on them.

Don't drink don't smoke what do you do?

If you do do then evidence your not saved.

No wonder why people start leaving but the back door.

Lack of love, compassion and empathy.

Many forget who they were, what they are.

Glad I'm not like you.

 

[BillG]

Hi Bill...I was thinking about this yesterday...How can I love my enemies , it drew me back to the things that were done to my children , abuse etc , and then I remembered what Jesus said about a cup of water , so I stopped for a minute and asked myself this " If I saw my enemy on the floor in passing , gasping for breath and in need off help , could I walk on by , and my answer was no , no matter what , I would call an ambulance and sit with them till help arrived...

This made me understand how God has and is changing my heart...It is Gods will that causes us to act , to do His good work , I can not do this act from worldly love , but only from the Love of God that He has put in me...

I am a bit confused with myself to be honest because these enemies of mine I do not like , yet in my heart I know I would help them , how can we not like someone yet can show them an act of love , I can't work that out , but then again all things are possible with God...xox...

I did that with my sexual abuser.

Thats what God works in us.

Yet it does not mean we have to make friends with them.

 

[stonesoffire]

The righteousness of Christ isn't just a legal declaration of right standing with God. When we get legally declared righteous through our faith in Christ we receive the Holy Spirit. This Holy Spirit is how we then produce actual righteous works. Those righteous works show us to have the righteousness of God that produced them.

People who have righteous works show that they have the Holy Spirit in them which only those who are declared legally righteous through faith in Christ have. That's why righteous living, or 'doing right' is the sign that you have been justified in Christ apart from the merit of works.

Just as literal circumcision and literal Sabbath rest were signs in the old covenant that you were in covenant with God through Moses, so it is that rest from the works of the flesh and a putting off of the works of the flesh in a circumcising of the heart in this New Covenant are the signs that you are in Covenant with God through Christ.


Bottom line, people who have righteous works show they have the Holy Spirit in them which only people justified by faith apart from works have.

This is upright. An upright walk of good works. Helps. But, those not born again cannlook good outwardly.

My opinion of your post is again, looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of your faith seems to be missing. Righteousness is His applied to our life.

The righteousness of God....in Christ Jesus. The position. Works are through Holy Spirit.

 

[stonesoffire]

Breaks my heart.

Yes come to our church. The front door is open.
When they come in then we place burdens on them.

Don't drink don't smoke what do you do?

If you do do then evidence your not saved.

No wonder why people start leaving but the back door.

Lack of love, compassion and empathy.

Many forget who they were, what they are.

Glad I'm not like you.

Just checking Bill...that last line? I don't think you mean me, but it looks like it. ?

 

[LightLoveHope]

Breaks my heart.

Yes come to our church. The front door is open.
When they come in then we place burdens on them.

Don't drink don't smoke what do you do?

If you do do then evidence your not saved.

No wonder why people start leaving but the back door.

Lack of love, compassion and empathy.

Many forget who they were, what they are.

Glad I'm not like you.

Blessing Bill,

Your sharing makes me think of something quite different.
You cannot expect people who do not know love and Christ transforming them,
to be able to share this.

The most mature believer can only share to the depth they themselves have gone.
So if people are weak but faithful, sometimes the showing of conformity is their work
of love in the world.

The time we live in now is much more open and free. If in the 1930's you were this
free you got beaten up literally, and no anti-biotics to save your life.

Because people now live such a long time, that generation is still in church, role
oriented, shy, and unskilled in this more open sharing world.

It is easy therefore to become very judgmental and to write off their love and
gifting as far as they were allowed to share it.

 

[stonesoffire]

Maybe, maybe not.

What the Bible says is you are to make your salvation sure TO YOURSELF. And we know we are saved by if we are producing the fruit of the kingdom, not by someone telling you you can't lose your salvation.

If the person with soil #2 in the Parable of the Sower starting posting in this thread, many here would tell them they are saved no matter what. How can they say that? As we see, the person with #2 type soil stopped believing, yet many would have insisted that they were definitely saved because salvation can not be lost no matter what. Assurance of salvation does not come from a once saved always doctrine. It comes from if you are changed/changing.



You know if that's true for sure by if you're producing righteous works and putting to death the desires of the flesh. Not perfectly, of course. Just that that is the pattern and net movement of your life.

If you're still the old you, you've got some self examination to do. Don't be hard on yourself. Just look for progress. Ask yourself if you can tell the difference between your old life and your new.

Did you ever consider that those pictures painted could be times of God preparing our hearts, rather than individuals?

I can point times of each before the day of salvation occurred.

 

[BillG]

Just checking Bill...that last line? I don't think you mean me, but it looks like it. ?

Ooh no no no.

Sorry

Should have posted the following after that, I just assumed people may get my point.

So

Luke 18:9-12
Parable of the Pharisee and Tax Collector
9 Then Jesus told this story to some who had great confidence in their own righteousness and scorned everyone else:10 “Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a Pharisee, and the other was a despised tax collector.11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: ‘I thank you, God, that I am not a sinner like everyone else. For I don’t cheat, I don’t sin, and I don’t commit adultery. I’m certainly not like that tax collector!12 I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.’

 

[stonesoffire]

This is upright. An upright walk of good works. Helps. But, those not born again cannlook good outwardly.

My opinion of your post is again, looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of your faith seems to be missing. Righteousness is His applied to our life.

The righteousness of God....in Christ Jesus. The position. Works are through Holy Spirit.

And I need to reword that last line. Holy Spirit works through us. That's works of the Spirit. .

 

[stonesoffire]

Ooh no no no.

Sorry

Should have posted the following after that, I just assumed people may get my point.

So

Luke 18:9-12
Parable of the Pharisee and Tax Collector
9 Then Jesus told this story to some who had great confidence in their own righteousness and scorned everyone else:10 “Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a Pharisee, and the other was a despised tax collector.11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: ‘I thank you, God, that I am not a sinner like everyone else. For I don’t cheat, I don’t sin, and I don’t commit adultery. I’m certainly not like that tax collector!12 I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.’

I was pretty sure you didnt, but thought others might read it wrong.

 

[BillG]

Blessing Bill,

Your sharing makes me think of something quite different.
You cannot expect people who do not know love and Christ transforming them,
to be able to share this.

The most mature believer can only share to the depth they themselves have gone.
So if people are weak but faithful, sometimes the showing of conformity is their work
of love in the world.

The time we live in now is much more open and free. If in the 1930's you were this
free you got beaten up literally, and no anti-biotics to save your life.

Because people now live such a long time, that generation is still in church, role
oriented, shy, and unskilled in this more open sharing world.

It is easy therefore to become very judgmental and to write off their love and
gifting as far as they were allowed to share it.

Those who love will walk in love. Those who have been forgiven much will realise that and walk in it.

The issue for me is that people forget where they were and where they are now.

My simple case study is me.

Severe gambling problem, for many many years. I hated it.
Even as a believer.

I have been healed and relesed from it.

I now walk with others who suffer the same issue.

Do I tell them "JUST stop it?
No I don't.
I understand the cause of the effect.

That's what I focus on.
I tell them what I went through and what Jesus has done in me to set me free.

The big issue for me is when people say "Dont do it, if you carry on then your not saved"

The bigger issue is that genuine believers come alongside but have not been through what the other person has been through.

Would I walk alongside with someone who's spouse was an adultery?
Probably not. Because I haven't experienced that.

Would I walk alongside a person who suffered as a result of divorced parents?
Yes I would, because I went through it 4 times.

My main point is

Do not write people off based on what we see.

Get to know the person.
Find out what is really going on.
Find out what is truly in their hearts.

 

[BillG]

Night night peeps.

God bless you all.