Not By Works

[Ralph-]

To be saved...No

So, just to be clear, works are not required to be JUSTIFIED. That is a fact and no one disagrees with that. The disconnect comes in whether or not we can have dead faith (faith with no works) and still expect to be saved when Jesus comes back. Of course we can't. James plainly said dead faith can not save-James 2:14. The person with dead faith is not born again.

 

[Ralph-]

'Ralph, I'm afraid because I have no works.'

Then do what the tax collector did and fall on the mercy of God and be saved and raised to new life.

“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’"14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”-Luke 18:13-14


That's how you get born again and ready for the coming of Christ. Now grow up into that salvation by putting the word of God into practice through the new nature every born again person receives.

Start by jump starting your new life in Christ......get water baptized, as soon as possible. Don't put it off. Declare your new life in Christ with power and conviction.

 

[joefizz]

And so, do we have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back or not? Yes, or no?

Can ye not discern for yourself,what is said?

 

[joefizz]

So, just to be clear, works are not required to be JUSTIFIED. That is a fact and no one disagrees with that. The disconnect comes in whether or not we can have dead faith (faith with no works) and still expect to be saved when Jesus comes back. Of course we can't. James plainly said dead faith can not save-James 2:14. The person with dead faith is not born again.

no he said "can it save"? a question not a statement or declaration.

 

[Ralph-]

Can ye not discern for yourself,what is said?

I think you are saying you must have works to be saved when Jesus comes back because that's what saved people do. I just want you to tell me plainly that's what you're saying.

 

[Ralph-]

no he said "can it save"? a question not a statement or declaration.

It's call a rhetorical question. A question with an obvious answer. No, dead faith can not save. Dead faith justifies no one.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

'Ralph, I'm afraid because I have no works.'

Then do what the tax collector did and fall on the mercy of God and be saved and raised to new life.

“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’"14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”-Luke 18:13-14


That's how you get born again and ready for the coming of Christ. Now grow up into that salvation by putting the word of God into practice through the new nature every born again person receives.

Start by jump starting your new life in Christ......get water baptized, as soon as possible. Don't put it off. Declare your new life in Christ with power and conviction.

Still swinging Ralph?

I was water baptised many years ago. I don't consider that a 'work'

Salvation by Ralph......
"When Jesus comes back" He is going to pull the rug out from under you because you didn't work hard enough you naughty child!

 

[mj007]

But it is probably the impure who are most likely to try to defile such a view.

Another perspective is do the impure inherit the Kingdom of God? No

For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Ephesians 5:5

For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thessalonians 4:7

Some claim no one preaches the impure are ok, except when you raise the subject
of a Holy life, living in purity, it is mocked as impossible. The conclusion is obvious,
everyone is impure, except Jesus declares otherwise.

 

[UnderGrace]

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Now that you have purified your souls by your obedience to the truth[SUP][a][/SUP] so that you have genuine mutual love, love one another deeply[SUP][b][/SUP] from the heart.[SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]23

[/SUP]You have been born anew, not of perishable but of imperishable seed, through the living and enduring word of God.

Regeneration, Christ within......His pure heart...which is manifested outward.

Yours, from what I have read, is about self-effort to try and make oneself pure.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Now that you have purified your souls by your obedience to the truth[SUP][a][/SUP] so that you have genuine mutual love, love one another deeply[SUP][b][/SUP] from the heart.[SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]23

[/SUP]You have been born anew, not of perishable but of imperishable seed, through the living and enduring word of God.

Regeneration, Christ within......His pure heart...which is manifested outward.

Yours from what I have read about self-effort to be pure.

 

[Ralph-]

Still swinging Ralph?

I was water baptised many years ago. I don't consider that a 'work'

It's the first step of obedience. Jesus said do it. If anyone has a problem doing that they'll have a really big problem with much more difficult commands of Jesus.

Water baptism is how you jump start boldness for living and serving in the kingdom of God.

Salvation by Ralph......
"When Jesus comes back" He is going to pull the rug out from under you because you didn't work hard enough you naughty child!

Now let me tell you what I've actually been saying, not what you've been hearing because of the strong delusion in the church today.

When Jesus comes back you will be rejected as an unbeliever if you have no change of life, no works, to validate you as being a believer. People with no change of life are not born again and so will not be saved from the fire when Jesus comes back.

That's a BIG difference from what you think I said. He can't pull a rug out from under anybody who didn't have that rug under them to begin with.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

It's the first step of obedience. Jesus said do it. If anyone has a problem doing that they'll have a really big problem with much more difficult commands of Jesus.

Water baptism is how you jump start boldness for living and serving in the kingdom of God.

Yes, well I still messed up in a few ways over the years and had to get back on my knees before The Lord to repent of my wickedness.

 

[UnderGrace]

As I said before and will keep posting this til you go and do some study on James....


The correct understanding of James would eliminate your inconsistent, illogical beliefs Ralphie, it is not right to misuse scripture.

James is not evangelizing his readers, they are believers.

Dead means unprofitable, unproductive, useless, it does not mean non-existent

What does it profit?

Twice James indicates he is talking about profit and loss, not heaven and hell.

James uses the word save (sōzō) five times.

All five refer to deliverance of believers from difficulties, judgment, and death in this life NOT loss of salvation or gaining salvation.

So, just to be clear, works are not required to be JUSTIFIED. That is a fact and no one disagrees with that. The disconnect comes in whether or not we can have dead faith (faith with no works) and still expect to be saved when Jesus comes back. Of course we can't. James plainly said dead faith can not save-James 2:14. The person with dead faith is not born again.

 

[UnderGrace]

How can you contradict yourself like this and not see it?

You baffle me

So, just to be clear, works are not required to be JUSTIFIED. That is a fact and no one disagrees with that. The disconnect comes in whether or not we can have dead faith (faith with no works) and still expect to be saved when Jesus comes back. Of course we can't. James plainly said dead faith can not save-James 2:14. The person with dead faith is not born again.

 

[Ralph-]

Yes, well I still messed up in a few ways over the years and had to get back on my knees before The Lord to repent of my wickedness.

We all have.

 

[Ralph-]

How can you contradict yourself like this and not see it?

You baffle me

I'm not contradicting myself. The problem is you can't hear what I'm saying.

 

[UnderGrace]

So if Jesus had come back on that day/time period you messed up then you would have
not been saved?

We all have.

 

[Ralph-]

As I said before and will keep posting this til you go and do some study on James....


The correct understanding of James would eliminate your inconsistent, illogical beliefs Ralphie, it is not right to misuse scripture.

James is not evangelizing his readers, they are believers.

Dead means unprofitable, unproductive, useless, it does not mean non-existent

What does it profit?

Twice James indicates he is talking about profit and loss, not heaven and hell.

James uses the word save (sōzō) five times.

All five refer to deliverance of believers from difficulties, judgment, and death in this life NOT loss of salvation or gaining salvation.

Sounds good, but he's not the only one that said you have to have a changed life or you show yourself to not be born again. John and Paul made that abundantly clear in some very not so politically correct language.

Don't be deceived, they said. If you are still living in your old life you are not born again-1 Corinthians 6:19, Galatians 5:19-21. Those who practice sin are not born again-1 John 3:6-10. What exactly is it in these passages that you do not agree with? They are just saying to the church what James said to the church, dead faith can not save. Dead faith shows you to not be born again.

 

[UnderGrace]

I actually really do understand what you are trying to say...BUT....

you cannot be justified which is a declaration by God not based upon our works

and then be unjustified because of lack of works?

That is contradictory.

I'm not contradicting myself. The problem is you can't hear what I'm saying.

 

[Ralph-]

I actually really do understand what you are trying to say...BUT....

you cannot be justified which is a declaration by God not based upon our works

and then be unjustified because of lack of works?

That is contradictory.

Then you are simply saying the person with dead faith was never born again. I'm okay with that because the point is, the person with dead faith is not born again and so will not be saved when Jesus comes back. Whether they were never born again to begin with or lost their salvation doesn't change that truth. The point is they are not born again. Don't let the once saved always saved contention distract you and seduce you away from that truth.

 

[UnderGrace]

If you are not born again you are not born again. I agree.

Being born again is a singular event, which is spiritual, regeneration.

I do not believe that works can provide absolute proof (what is the measuring stick over the course of someone's life each and every minute and hour of their outward behaviour) of salvation or that works can save us.

We do good works as an outcome of salvation, not for salvation.

Sounds good, but he's not the only one that said you have to have a changed life or you show yourself to not be born again. John and Paul made that abundantly clear in some very not so politically correct language.

Don't be deceived, they said. If you are still living in your old life you are not born again-1 Corinthians 6:19, Galatians 5:19-21. Those who practice sin are not born again-1 John 3:6-10. What exactly is it in these passages that you do not agree with? They are just saying to the church what James said to the church, dead faith can not save. Dead faith shows you to not be born again.