Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

Greetinge dcontroversal,

I hope you can help me. You seem to be talking about having security in Jesus, and
seem to express other believers do not have this security.

Could you explain personally how you know you have this security while other believers
do not have it?

My security in Christ is founded on who Jesus is to my heart. I have never found anything
false or flawed in my Lord and His dealings. I listen to His word, and how it has worked out in my
life to His glory, not of my doing but the Holy Spirit at work within me.

So I was wondering, if as a brother in Christ, you could encourage me with your insights and life?

I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong--
that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith.
Rom 1:11-12

Workers for and sinless perfectionists all claim that salvation can be lost or forfeit...the bible does not teach this...verb tense alone, context, and the dozens upon dozens or promises by Christ ALL prove eternal security.....these are written that you may believe and KNOW you have eternal life.....John was clear as well......

 

[heartofdavid]

You said nothing of value the last two posts....and scriptures are clear concerning every little flippant statement you have made....

Address my concerns,not how you rate them.

Take just one.
It is a discussion,but i believe you don't want to go there,so you do a rating on my valid points hoping to get off topic

 

[NoNameMcgee]

I posted several verses. Show me what your objection is to them....that believers fall away.

Also show me how to minister to a brother caught up in habitual sin.

to those who misunderstand hebrews 6 and take it out of context




Romans 1:28-29

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

________
1 john

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


______________


Hebrews 6
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

___________

there are those who hear the call

but are not chosen

they were not born again or they no doubt would have continued in faith

__________

proof of tasting the Holy spirit but not being born again BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF



7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Philippians 1:6
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

romans 3
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

[dcontroversal]

So anyone with a sin stronghold is just " safe"

We never try to help him because that would be works.

Kinda bizarre.
Maybe get out of doctrine long enough to help him?
But please do re invent the remedy.
Pssst....the devil is eating his ever loving lunch while you guys assure him " hey,we all sin"

By the way....I never said or implied any of what you have said here.....and GOD does not CHASTEN the obedient and or those who do not belong to him.....think about that for a minute

 

[dcontroversal]

Address my concerns,not how you rate them.

Take just one.
It is a discussion,but i believe you don't want to go there,so you do a rating on my valid points hoping to get off topic

You made no valid points...no one has said or implied the points you have made......post a valid statement, non accusatory and or embellished concerning anything we have said about sin and go from there....just like the testimony posted...you took what the man said, embellished it, added to it and accused him of saying something he did not say.....when you can BE HONEST and not do the above then and only then can we have dialogue.....until then....it does not good to address flippant, untruthful remarks that that not been made nor implied...why is that so hard to understand?

 

[Rosemaryx]

I would say you would have lost your salvation already if you were shrinking down into doubt and Christ was not there to help you and encourage you to stay the course.


The important thing, Rosemary, is whether once saved always saved is true or not does not change the truth that you have to have works of righteousness in an ever changing life or else you are not born again and will not be saved when Jesus comes back. That's why I say it's a meaningless doctrine. Once saved always saved does not make it so we don't have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back.

Once saved always saved is a distraction to what really matters, which is justification by "faith working through love"-Galatians 5:6. A 'faith' that does not work through love is a dead faith that can not justify. Growing up into godly love and doing right is how we know that we have the faith that justifies and will save us when Jesus comes back.

Hi Ralph...I understand what you are saying , and those who have the Holy Spirit in them will do good works , our faith will not be dead because it is God who wills us to do His good works...

I can not see what you see , I just know that we ( Children of God ) are born again Spiritually , we are dead to our old selves , we start off in our walk by sitting , standing , walking and running , we stumble on the way , God will always direct our paths ... You are talking as if people in here are saying that they are willfully sinning and enjoying it , I have not yet come across anyone like that , it is like you are pushing your message against those who are are truly saved but from what I can see is that you are banging your head on a brick wall because no one in here is behaving in the manner that you are addressing them with...

Once we are saved , works follow , but according to God`s will not our own...Like I said , maybe you see something I do not , but I am sure I would come to know by now if someone was claiming that we can carry on sining now we have God`s grace , but it has not happened...

Away from our keyboards , we do all sorts for our LORD , but we may not speak about it on here , I understand that we can ALL show lack off the fruit of the spirit , but we will be disciplined by God for it , we are told in the bible there is only one unforgivable sin that will not be pardoned , and no one has committed that in here ...

Yes God is a consuming fire , but He is also our loving , kind , merciful , long suffering , patient Father , and that`s all I have to say......xox...

 

[heartofdavid]

I have posted several verses on shipwrecked believers and them falling away.
Nobody has taken them seriously.

Here is another,the produgal.
He was family and departed. He was shipwrecked. Only through repentance and a traveling back,did he recieve restoration.

Ooops.

 

[VCO]

The person who says they are saved and who lives any way they want is not born again.

"By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."-1 John 3:10

Grace does not abound to the person who lives any way they want. They show that they do not have the grace of God in salvation. John said so.

The presence of abundant grace is seen in a turning away from sin, not in a living in sin. Paul said do not be deceived. People who live in sin will not inherit the kingdom.

I am shocked that you finally made a statement that I can agree with. Here is the reasons:

NOTICE in the verse you Quoted, it says PRACTICE; and everyone knows that if you continue to PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS, you will get better, and better at it. I understand that SALVATION of the human spirit, happens at the moment we first believed, HOWEVER the SANCTIFICATION of the Human Body is a LIFELONG STRUGGLE, of becoming more and more like HIM. AND IT WILL NOT BE COMPLETE UNTIL:

Romans 6:5 (GW)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] If we've become united with him in a death like his, certainly we will also be united with him when we come back to life as he did.


Philippians 3:20-21 (ESV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

1 John 3:2-5 (ESV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.


We will not be PERFECTLY LIKE HIM, until we have that Resurrected Body, BUT UNTIL THEN, we are the ONES who PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS, try to get BETTER AT IT. And when we fail, we confess it as sin WILLFULLY, and get back up to continue your practice righteousness. THAT IS CALLED SANCTIFICATION OF THE BODY, not Salvation.


SALVATION was the instant that the HOLY SPIRIT enterered our human spirit, birthing it into Eternal Life, John 3:6, and Pouring GOD's LOVE into our hearts, Rom. 5:5.

That is WHY, he can say this without it being A CONTRADITION:

John 11:26 (ESV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 6:47 (CSBBible)
[SUP]47[/SUP] "Truly I tell you, anyone who believes has eternal life.



So, how do we accomplish the SANCTIFICATION of our Bodies:


1 Corinthians 15:31 (NASB)
[SUP]31 [/SUP] I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Luke 9:23 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then He said to ⌊them⌋ all, “If anyone wants to come with Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow Me.



WE SACRIFICE SELFISH DESIRES, to accomplish HIS WILL FOR OUR LIVES.
In doing so, we are practicing righteousness. AND IF WE PRACTICE, WE WILL GET BETTER.

And when we do fail, we CONFESS IT IMMEDIATELY, and GET BACK UP TO CONTINUE TO PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Think you have no sin? Guess again:


Romans 14:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith:
for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.



1 John 1:6-10 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] If we say, “We have fellowship with Him,” yet we walk in darkness, we are lying and are not practicing the truth.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] If we say, “We have no sin,” we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If we say, “We don’t have any sin,” we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


What if we have an obvious pretend Christian in our Church, who does not practice righteousness?

JESUS SAID TO LEAVE HIM THERE, because you cannot tell if it is a BABY Christian just learning to walk, or if it true unbeliever, that will eventually learn what it is to be a real Christian. Remember FAITH COMES BY HEARING.

 

[heartofdavid]

You made no valid points...no one has said or implied the points you have made......post a valid statement, non accusatory and or embellished concerning anything we have said about sin and go from there....just like the testimony posted...you took what the man said, embellished it, added to it and accused him of saying something he did not say.....when you can BE HONEST and not do the above then and only then can we have dialogue.....until then....it does not good to address flippant, untruthful remarks that that not been made nor implied...why is that so hard to understand?

So now you say ministering to a brother in the grip of habitual sin is " no valid point"

Huh? What are you doing? Where are you spiritually sir?
I exist for THEM. They are what I live for.

They are nothing to you?

 

[Rosemaryx]

We have a new heart...We have a new Spirit , and He is called the Holy Spirit of God......Impossible not to be changed...

 

[heartofdavid]

By the way....I never said or implied any of what you have said here.....and GOD does not CHASTEN the obedient and or those who do not belong to him.....think about that for a minute

Well a brother would be a believer.

And the word says he chastens and chastizes every son he recieves.

Now what is that about he never chastises believers?

 

[heartofdavid]

So anyone with a sin stronghold is just " safe"

We never try to help him because that would be works.

Kinda bizarre.
Maybe get out of doctrine long enough to help him?
But please do re invent the remedy.
Pssst....the devil is eating his ever loving lunch while you guys assure him " hey,we all sin"

^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^

I will wait for a response

 

[heartofdavid]

So what shall we do about willful habitual sin?

What does the H S think about christians that are bogged down.

By framing EVERYTING in osas, including striving for holiness( which i find bizarre) not only are you apparently justifying carnality,how do you ever hope to MINISTER TO a brother trapped in porn or adultery,or drug addiction??????

^^^^^^^^^THIS ^^^^^^^^^

Lets see what can be done for this brother.
He is a brother,in whatever trap ( doesn't have to be porn), and needs out.
Tell me how i do this. How i help him.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Workers for and sinless perfectionists all claim that salvation can be lost or forfeit...the bible does not teach this...verb tense alone, context, and the dozens upon dozens or promises by Christ ALL prove eternal security.....these are written that you may believe and KNOW you have eternal life.....John was clear as well......

Dear dcontroversal, brother in the Lord,

I know about general beliefs of others, I shared about my foundation in the Lord.
In a personal relationship things go beyond a few words written down.
Or are you saying that is all you actually have, the tense of a verse to go on?
You want people to become like you, yet you cannot actually define it?
This is your chance to shine, to be a witness, to tell of the glory of Christ at
work in your heart.

Or is the reality somewhat different? To busy fighting the enemy?

And dear friend, I am not projecting or telling you anything, I am waiting for your
light within to shine through.

Peace and grace to you in Christ Jesus, Amen.

 

[dcontroversal]

I have posted several verses on shipwrecked believers and them falling away.
Nobody has taken them seriously.

Here is another,the produgal.
He was family and departed. He was shipwrecked. Only through repentance and a traveling back,did he recieve restoration.

Ooops.

He burned his inheritance through riotous living yet was a SON though the whole process, only perceived as dead and was still received as a son with a ring and a robe...<--covering and authority....

Sounds just like the one with works of wood, hay and stubble....the loss of inheritance yet still SAVED and received as a son....

 

[LightLoveHope]

We have a new heart...We have a new Spirit , and He is called the Holy Spirit of God......Impossible not to be changed...

Amen

As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him--
you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 2:4-5

We are transformed in Christ as we lay down all before Him, all defence, all our rights,
all our precious feelings, all our hurts, all our past, and worship the King of Kings, Amen

Grace and peace to you, dear sister.

 

[dcontroversal]

Dear dcontroversal, brother in the Lord,

I know about general beliefs of others, I shared about my foundation in the Lord.
In a personal relationship things go beyond a few words written down.
Or are you saying that is all you actually have, the tense of a verse to go on?
You want people to become like you, yet you cannot actually define it?
This is your chance to shine, to be a witness, to tell of the glory of Christ at
work in your heart.

Or is the reality somewhat different? To busy fighting the enemy?

And dear friend, I am not projecting or telling you anything, I am waiting for your
light within to shine through.

Peace and grace to you in Christ Jesus, Amen.

What part of the following did you not understand? Why is it that some can read a post and MISS all that is said in the post...I do not base my assurance upon just a tense of a SINGLE VERSE to go on....the following stands alone...not to mention the times I have seen GOD work in my life, answer prayer requests to a t, convict me, whip me, bless me etc..........

1. Verb tense proves eternal life
2. Context proves eternal life
3. The promises of Christ prove eternal life
4. The written word and assurance of it proves eternal life
5. The verbiage given proves eternal life

 

[NoNameMcgee]

So anyone with a sin stronghold is just " safe"

anyone without the imputed righteousness of Jesus is going to hell....
stronghold or no stronghold

1 sin = name blotted out

but if you have the imputed righteousness of Jesus

there will be 0 sins accounted to you

you are ONLY safe if covered by the righteousness of Jesus
and yours will be covered up by His

because yours will fall short

We never try to help him because that would be works.

thats not true
and no one here implies that.... ever

Kinda bizarre.
Maybe get out of doctrine long enough to help him?
But please do re invent the remedy.
Pssst....the devil is eating his ever loving lunch while you guys assure him " hey,we all sin"

who are you talking to?

Romans 4
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[valleyofdecision]

Sounds just like the one with works of wood, hay and stubble....the loss of inheritance yet still SAVED and received as a son....

1 COr 3:1-15

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. [SUP]2 [/SUP]I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, [SUP]3 [/SUP]for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? [SUP]4 [/SUP]For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men? [SUP]5 [/SUP]What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. [SUP]6 [/SUP]I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. [SUP]7 [/SUP]So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, [SUP]13 [/SUP]each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. [SUP]14 [/SUP]If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. [SUP]15 [/SUP]If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

I see nothing regarding salvation or the judgement seat of Jesus Christ in this passage. I see how a minister of the Gospel teaches and preaches the foundation of the gospel will be tested. If a minister teaches on the foundation of Christ he receives a reward, if a Minister teaches on any other foundation but Christ, his work is burned up and he is saved, yet scorched pretty badly.I do not see how this passage deals with the judgement of works after salvation. The context does not bear it.

 

[PennEd]

He burned his inheritance through riotous living yet was a SON though the whole process, only perceived as dead and was still received as a son with a ring and a robe...<--covering and authority....

Sounds just like the one with works of wood, hay and stubble....the loss of inheritance yet still SAVED and received as a son....

I believe the 3 "lost" Parables are connected.

The Lord WILL leave the 99 to find and draw back His Child.

I believe the prodigal son NEVER lost his sonship, and it was the Lord that disciplined him, by allowing the enemy to "destroy" his flesh, so that he would be drawn back and go back to the Father.

Very much like my story.