My view of dominion is to go into all the world with the gospel. Especially politics if this is your call. Don't retreat from the world.
tis all.
tis all.
-
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My personal opinion is Adam and Eve were spiritual beings. We certainly have obtained this through Jesus.
Fear of the spiritual is natural. The natural man or woman. Not for Sons and daughters. Many blessings Joanie!
Paul rebuked the Corinthians because they believed in the dominionism doctrine:
Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have begun to reign—and that without us! How I wish that you really had begun to reign so that we also might reign with you!
1 Corinthians 4:8 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/1co.4.8.NIV
Originally Posted by know1
Show me scripture in the bible that disproves WOF and you will have my attention.
So, here is from the thread I started in 2016. Been busy, didn't have time to post it before. Long, but it has a lot of verses for you!
Again, another copy and paste of something I already wrote, coming from a pamphlet called The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospel by Gordon D. Fee. Gordon Fee is one of the top Bible and Greek scholars in the world. He is also Pentecostal, believes in healing and the gifts of the Spirit. But he does NOT believe in the distorted exegesis of the Bible, and how Health and Wealth teachers have twisted the Bible, as evident from so many posts in this thread.
As far as wealth, Gordon Fee doesn't have a kind word to say about it. It is totally a false doctrine. Having met numerous people who were fleeced by these evil men who preach unconditional wealth, it is not Biblical. I will not deal with it here, although if anyone wants to talk about it, in terms of what the Bible says, please feel free to post Bible verses on it. I do not believe in this false prosperity gospel and I would be willing to post the Scriptures that explain why. (I am NOT saying that God doesn't bless us, but again, it is not part of the atonement or the Bible!)
Regarding healing, Fee titles this chapter "The 'Gospel' of Perfect Health." First, he notes that physical and mental healing of human life is part of the redemptive activity of God. He believes in prayer for the sick, as I do! Christians are subject to decay and death in this present age, and healing is God's gracious activity in the body healed and is a sign of the future already at work in this present age.
If healing is supported by both the Bible and theology and praying in faith for the gracious healing of the sick, then where is the problem? What is the "disease" nature of the "gospel" of total health for Christians?
There are basically some biblical and theological distortions which insist:
1. that God wills perfect health and complete healing for every believer
2. that God has obligated Himself to heal every sickness for those who have faith (unless the sickness is a result of breaking God's "health" laws.)
Integral to this theology is the insistence that faith can "claim" such healing from God, and that any failure to be healed is not the fault of God, but of the one who has not had enough faith. Very often "claiming" healing means to "confess" it as done, even though the symptoms persists.
So the answer to why people are not healed, who have faith, has to lie not in the actual words of the Bible or God himself, but in the way the Bible is being interpreted. As with many half-truths, the "gospel" of perfect health sees to base itself on Scripture. However, the evangelists interpretation is faulty for the following reasons:
1. some poor, or flat-out wrong interpretations of key texts
2. some selective use of texts,
3. a failure to have a wholistic biblical view of things, and especially a failure to understand the essential theological framework of the New Testament writers.
As a result, they tend to repeat the Corinthian error and are unable to hear Paul's answers in 1 and 2 Corinthians as over and against themselves, although these evangelists are unwitting descendants of the false apostles of 2 Cor. 10-13!
"So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Cor. 12:7-10
Basic hermeneutics demands the following things:
The aim of all biblical interpretation is the "plain meaning" of the text. The Bible is indeed a book for all seasons, because it speaks directly out of our past to our present situation, it does so because it first spoke to them in their situation.
Therefore, the first task of interpretation is NOT to find out what it says to us, but what it originally said to them. God's Word to us is not a new word, never before discovered; rather it must be the very same word he originally spoke back there and then. This is the only legitimate Word to be heard in Scripture.
All this must be insisted upon, because the basic Biblical failure of the "perfect health" evangelists is the interpretation of their primary texts. They simply fail to do adequate exegesis which has to do with determining the meaning of the text in original context.
The arguments for perfect health as God's will for all believers are based on three sets of texts
a. Paul's statement that "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law" Gal 3:14, coupled with Deuteronomy 28:21-22 where disease is one of the curses for disobedience of the law.
"The Lord will make the pestilence stick to you until he has consumed you off the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease and with fever, inflammation and fiery heat, and with drought and with blight and with mildew. They shall pursue you until you perish." Debt. 28:21-22
It is argued from these texts that sickness is a part of the curse of the law, from which Christ redeemed us from.
b. Isa. 53 and the citation of Isa. 53:4 in Matt 8:17 and Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24. It is argued from these texts, especially from the change to the past tense in 1 Peter that healing is in the atonement in the same way as forgiveness. (Something that Undergrace has been ably defending!)
c. A whole host of texts that remind us that God honours faith eg. Matt 9:29, Mark 11:23-24, John 14:12; Hebrews 11:6; James 1:6-8
The first set of texts, (a above) can be quickly set aside. This is a typical example of a totally faulty "concordance" interpretation, which finds English "catch" words in various texts and then tries to make them all refer to the same thing. There is not even the remotest possibility that Paul was referring to the curses of Deuteronomy 28 when he spoke of "curse of the law." And "redemption" in Galatians has to do with one thing only - how does one have right standing with God - through faith (= trust in God's gracious acceptance and forgiveness for sinners), or by works of the law (=acceptance by obedience to prescribed rules)? Thus the Holy Spirit could scarcely have inspired a meaning of the text that is totally foreign to the point Paul is making in the context in Galatians.
It is also questionable whether one can rightly argue that the Bible teaches that healing is provided for in the atonement. Historic Pentecostalism does not see healing provided for in the atonement the same way as salvation. Healing is "provided for" because the "atonement brought release from the consequences of sin;" nevertheless, since "we have not yet received the redemption of our bodies" suffering and death are still our lot until the resurrection.
"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:4-6
While there are many texts that show that our sin has been overcome by Christ's death and resurrection, there is in fact no text that that explicitly says the same thing about healing, not even Isaiah 53 and its NT citations.
Matthew's use of Isa. 53:4 does not even refer to the cross, rather the clearly sees the text being fulfilled in Jesus earthly ministry. This is made certain by both the context and by his choice of Greek verbs in his own unique translation of the Hebrew (ἔλαβεν or elaben = he took; ἐβάστασεν or ebastasen = he removed.)
"ὅπως πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Ἠσαΐου τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβεν καὶ τὰς νόσους ἐβάστασεν." Matt 8:17 Greek
"This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” Matt 8:17 ESV
The citation of Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24 on the other hand, does not refer to physical healing. The usage here is metaphorical, pure and simple! In context, in which slaves are urged to submit to their evil masters - even if it means suffering for it - Peter appeals to the example of Christ, which Christians slaves are to follow.
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV
This appeal to Christ, beginning at verse 21, is filling with allusions and to citations of Isa. 53 all of which refers to Christ's having suffered unjustly as the source of the slave's redemption from sin. Thus Peter says:
"He himself bore our wounds" (Isa. 53:12) "that we might die to sin."
"By his wounds you have been healed" (Isa. 53:5) FOR you were as sheep going astray. (Isa. 53:6)
The allusions to both verses 5 and 6, joined by FOR (coordinate Conjunction) and referring to "sheep going astray" plus the change to the past tense, all make it abundantly clear that "healing" here is a metaphor for being restored to health from "the sickness of their sins!"
Such a metaphorical use would be natural for Peter, since sin as "wound" "injury" or "sickness" and the "healing" or such "sickness" are thorough going images in the Old Testament. See 2 Chron. 7:14; Psalm 6:2; Isaiah 1:5-6; Jerem. 30:12-13, 52:8-9; Nahum 3:19)
Furthermore , the Old Testament citations in 1 Peter rather closely follow the Septuagint (LXX or Greek translation of the OT) even when this translation differed from the Hebrew; and the Septuagint had ALREADY translated Isa. 53:4 metaphorically!
"He himself bore our sins" rather than "our sicknesses." I am sure Peter knew both versions and chose the LXX because he knew it was a better version for NT believers and their understanding of Isa. 53:4.
So my point!
Matt clearly saw Isa. 53:4 as referring to physical healing, but as a part of the Messiah's ministry, not the atonement. Peter, conversely, saw the "healing" in Isa. 53 as being metaphorical and thus referring to the healing of our sin sickness. Neither NT reference to healing sees the "healing" in Isa. 53 as referring to physical healing in the atonement.
But what did Isaiah himself intend??
The first reference is certainly metaphorical as the Septuagint, the Targums and Peter recognize. Israel was diseased! She was grievously wounded for her sins (Isa 1:6-7) Yet God would restore his people. There would come one who himself would suffer so as to deliver. Isaiah says of the Messiah "The punishment that brought us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed." Since physical disease was clearly recognized as a consequence of the Fall, such a metaphor could also pick up the literal sense and that is what Matthew picked up on.
The Bible therefore does, not explicitly teach that healing is provided for in the atonement. However, the NT does see the cross as the focus of God's redemptive activity.
As far as part c above, ultimately, these rely on a wrong interpretation that healing is part of the atonement. The argument for perfect health, or healing on demand, lies in the joining of healing to the atonement as the basis for demand, and therefore if God has provided for it, he must therefore heal on demand.
Since in fact, there is no connection of the atonement to healing, God is not obligated to provide healing on demand, although I do believe he heals when people pray and it is His will to heal, that he might be glorified.
Jesus has come to save you from your sins. That you can be sure of. God is real. But televangelist, Word Faith prophets, not at all! If you start reading the Bible from cover to cover, over and over yearly or more, you will get a very different theology than these sharks and false prophets paint. I urge everyone to get out a modern translation like ESV or HCSB and read it over and over again. That was part of what helped me heal - just reading the Word of God - in context, and fully! I've read the Bible over 40 times straight through, and most of the NT in Greek and much of the OT in Hebrew. (And the entire bible in French!) I assure you, there is nothing more glorious than feeding on the Word of God. God will minister to you daily as you seek his revealed Word in the Bible, rather than with internet preachers and false prophets.
Here is the verse God gave me that healed my soul in more than one way. It appears in Paul's chapter on justification, and that we all suffer - we live in a fallen world. It has comforted me more times than you can imagine!
"Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5
This was in answer to someone saying John 16:23 proved that we could name and claim!
"[FONT="]καὶ ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐμὲ οὐκ ἐρωτήσετε οὐδέν· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἄν τι αἰτήσητε τὸν πατέρα δώσει ὑμῖν ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου." John 16:23[/FONT][FONT="]
In English the passage in context:
[/FONT][FONT="]"[/FONT][FONT="]When a woman is in labor she has pain because her time has come. But when she has given birth to a child, she no longer remembers the suffering because of the joy that a person has been born into the world. [/FONT][FONT="]22 So you also have sorrow now. But I will see you again. Your hearts will rejoice, and no one will rob you of your joy. [/FONT][FONT="]23 In that day you will not ask Me anything.[/FONT][FONT="]“I assure you: Anything you ask the Father in My name, He will give you." John 16:21-23 HCSB
"1 When a woman is giving birth, she has sorrow because her hour has come, but when she has delivered the baby, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world. 22 So also you have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you. 23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, whatever you ask of the Father in my name, he will give it to you." John 16:21-23 ESV
First, it is important not to put just the whole verse, but the context. Otherwise, you will end up with a false doctrine. Seven words is NEVER enough to make sound doctrine. Context counts - not just the verses around it, but the entire book of John.
The book of John is an amazing treatise on Jesus Christ, whom John shows to be God. It is not really about what I can name and claim! Seriously! I am just reading in John in my daily read through the Bible, it exults in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who died on the cross for our sins. Over and over, it shows how Jesus is God.
But more specifically, what was Jesus talking about in this passage? Some obscure interpretation of his Words 21 centuries in the future? Something that we can use today, to get whatever we want? Not really. He was talking about a parable of a woman giving birth, with two key words - grief and joy. A parable is a teaching Jesus used to obscure what he was saying to the masses, but then he would explain it to his disciples.
So, when a woman gives birth, she has grief, or sorrow because her hour has come. I can testify to that portion of the Scripture. But, when the child is born, she doesn't even remember her anguish, for she is filled with joy that a human being was born into the world. I totally understand this, having experienced it four joyful times.
Although childbirth was a common eschatological metaphor for "distress" or "tribulation" prior to the Day of the Lord, this probably is just any generic woman giving birth, not an allegorical figure representing Israel or Jerusalem or the people of God.
Yet the parable does involve a comparison between her experience and those of the disciples. The comparison is a simple one - there is grief and then there is joy! But the joy far outweighs the grief.
"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us." Romans 8:18
"For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison," 2 Cor. 4:17
The parable comes as a surprise in one respect, in that the reason for the woman's overwhelming joy is that "a human being" has been born into the world. To be born "into the world" is evidently a good thing, even in the face of all that has been said earlier about the world hating the disciples (John 15:18-25) and rejoicing at their grief. (vs 20)
Jesus immediately makes the application explicit: "And so you have grief now, but I will see you again, and your heart will rejoice and no one takes away your joy from you." (vs. 22).
The promise "I will see you again." vs 22, also recalls Jesus terminology earlier answering the disciples "I am coming back" (14:3) and "I am coming to you" (14:28). In fact, John 14, 15 and 16 are intricately tied to Jesus explaining he has to go, but he will send the Holy Spirit when he leaves for heaven.
Jesus' explanation of the parable in vs 21 continues in vv 22-23, the verse in question which was posted out of context.
Please note, this explanation "you will ask me for nothing" and then "whatever you ask of the Father in my name, he will give it to you." vs 23. When? In that day! Now this is the crux of the meaning of John 16:23.
Jesus says the disciple will ask no questions, because they have no need to ask. "In that day" they will understand what they do not understand now. Their questions will have been answered. The emphatic "me" ἐμὲ simply identifies Jesus as the Source of truth, who will reveal all things freely without being questioned.
But another type of "asking" is necessary, even commanded! While the disciples will have no more need to ask questions they will always need to "ask" in prayer. Without hesitation Jesus continues with, "Truly, truly I say to you, whatever you ask of the Father in my name he will give it to you."
"Joy" (v22) rests on knowledge, to be sure, but the transition from grief to joy is accomplished only through prayer.
Prayer "in his name" will be answered because it is the prayer of those who know him, and do not have to be told what he would want. The promise of answered prayer is "for that day," when Jesus will see them again, and make himself known to them. Jesus confirms that the transition from "grief" to "joy" is not limited to an eschatological moment, whether the resurrection of Jesus or his final coming, but it is something that happens again and again, above all through the prayers of those who grieve.
So is this passage about asking for whatever we want in Jesus name, and the Father being obligated to give it? Absolutely not! That is a egregious reading of this passage, especially in light of the teachings of Jesus in chapters 14-16. It is about Jesus, and how when we know him, we can come to him, asking in prayer for the things we know he wants us to ask for. Not complete health or great wealth, but a deep and joyous relationship with Jesus through the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus talks about coming in the opening verses of chapter 16.
Finally, I doubt very much Jesus was telling his disciples to name it and claim it, when he finishes chapter with this verse.
“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” John 16:33
He knows the disciples are going to go through some very trying times, and that they need to keep focused on Christ, to find peace when the real trials and tribulations come.
Of course, if you disagree, please feel free to discuss the verse in context, and state exactly your thoughts about what that passage means. I am sure that by looking in context, instead of this truncated view of partial verses ripped out of context, you will gain a much greater understanding of where Jesus is going in John 16.
[/FONT]
"[FONT="]καὶ ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐμὲ οὐκ ἐρωτήσετε οὐδέν· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἄν τι αἰτήσητε τὸν πατέρα δώσει ὑμῖν ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου." John 16:23[/FONT][FONT="]
In English the passage in context:
[/FONT][FONT="]"[/FONT][FONT="]When a woman is in labor she has pain because her time has come. But when she has given birth to a child, she no longer remembers the suffering because of the joy that a person has been born into the world. [/FONT][FONT="]22 So you also have sorrow now. But I will see you again. Your hearts will rejoice, and no one will rob you of your joy. [/FONT][FONT="]23 In that day you will not ask Me anything.[/FONT][FONT="]“I assure you: Anything you ask the Father in My name, He will give you." John 16:21-23 HCSB
"1 When a woman is giving birth, she has sorrow because her hour has come, but when she has delivered the baby, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world. 22 So also you have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you. 23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, whatever you ask of the Father in my name, he will give it to you." John 16:21-23 ESV
First, it is important not to put just the whole verse, but the context. Otherwise, you will end up with a false doctrine. Seven words is NEVER enough to make sound doctrine. Context counts - not just the verses around it, but the entire book of John.
The book of John is an amazing treatise on Jesus Christ, whom John shows to be God. It is not really about what I can name and claim! Seriously! I am just reading in John in my daily read through the Bible, it exults in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who died on the cross for our sins. Over and over, it shows how Jesus is God.
But more specifically, what was Jesus talking about in this passage? Some obscure interpretation of his Words 21 centuries in the future? Something that we can use today, to get whatever we want? Not really. He was talking about a parable of a woman giving birth, with two key words - grief and joy. A parable is a teaching Jesus used to obscure what he was saying to the masses, but then he would explain it to his disciples.
So, when a woman gives birth, she has grief, or sorrow because her hour has come. I can testify to that portion of the Scripture. But, when the child is born, she doesn't even remember her anguish, for she is filled with joy that a human being was born into the world. I totally understand this, having experienced it four joyful times.
Although childbirth was a common eschatological metaphor for "distress" or "tribulation" prior to the Day of the Lord, this probably is just any generic woman giving birth, not an allegorical figure representing Israel or Jerusalem or the people of God.
Yet the parable does involve a comparison between her experience and those of the disciples. The comparison is a simple one - there is grief and then there is joy! But the joy far outweighs the grief.
"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us." Romans 8:18
"For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison," 2 Cor. 4:17
The parable comes as a surprise in one respect, in that the reason for the woman's overwhelming joy is that "a human being" has been born into the world. To be born "into the world" is evidently a good thing, even in the face of all that has been said earlier about the world hating the disciples (John 15:18-25) and rejoicing at their grief. (vs 20)
Jesus immediately makes the application explicit: "And so you have grief now, but I will see you again, and your heart will rejoice and no one takes away your joy from you." (vs. 22).
The promise "I will see you again." vs 22, also recalls Jesus terminology earlier answering the disciples "I am coming back" (14:3) and "I am coming to you" (14:28). In fact, John 14, 15 and 16 are intricately tied to Jesus explaining he has to go, but he will send the Holy Spirit when he leaves for heaven.
Jesus' explanation of the parable in vs 21 continues in vv 22-23, the verse in question which was posted out of context.
Please note, this explanation "you will ask me for nothing" and then "whatever you ask of the Father in my name, he will give it to you." vs 23. When? In that day! Now this is the crux of the meaning of John 16:23.
Jesus says the disciple will ask no questions, because they have no need to ask. "In that day" they will understand what they do not understand now. Their questions will have been answered. The emphatic "me" ἐμὲ simply identifies Jesus as the Source of truth, who will reveal all things freely without being questioned.
But another type of "asking" is necessary, even commanded! While the disciples will have no more need to ask questions they will always need to "ask" in prayer. Without hesitation Jesus continues with, "Truly, truly I say to you, whatever you ask of the Father in my name he will give it to you."
"Joy" (v22) rests on knowledge, to be sure, but the transition from grief to joy is accomplished only through prayer.
Prayer "in his name" will be answered because it is the prayer of those who know him, and do not have to be told what he would want. The promise of answered prayer is "for that day," when Jesus will see them again, and make himself known to them. Jesus confirms that the transition from "grief" to "joy" is not limited to an eschatological moment, whether the resurrection of Jesus or his final coming, but it is something that happens again and again, above all through the prayers of those who grieve.
So is this passage about asking for whatever we want in Jesus name, and the Father being obligated to give it? Absolutely not! That is a egregious reading of this passage, especially in light of the teachings of Jesus in chapters 14-16. It is about Jesus, and how when we know him, we can come to him, asking in prayer for the things we know he wants us to ask for. Not complete health or great wealth, but a deep and joyous relationship with Jesus through the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus talks about coming in the opening verses of chapter 16.
Finally, I doubt very much Jesus was telling his disciples to name it and claim it, when he finishes chapter with this verse.
“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” John 16:33
He knows the disciples are going to go through some very trying times, and that they need to keep focused on Christ, to find peace when the real trials and tribulations come.
Of course, if you disagree, please feel free to discuss the verse in context, and state exactly your thoughts about what that passage means. I am sure that by looking in context, instead of this truncated view of partial verses ripped out of context, you will gain a much greater understanding of where Jesus is going in John 16.
[/FONT]
"[FONT="]Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi,[/FONT][FONT="] look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”
[/FONT][FONT="]22 “Have faith in God,” Jesus answered. 23 “Truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. 24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.” Mark 11:21-25 NIV
First, this is a beautiful passage on faith, in context with the rest of Mark 11, it has a lot to do with introducing his disciples to a new concept of where to put their faith - not in the temple, which Jesus addresses in verses 15-18, specifically.
"On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple courts and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17 And as he taught them, he said, “Is it not written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations’ ?But you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’”[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching." Mark 11:15-18
As you can see, this is a powerful incident recalling Jesus chasing out the money changers, who has taking a "house of prayer" and turned it into a den of robbers. The Pharisees and chief priests were incredibly upset by this confrontation with Jesus - not only because it cut into their money, but I think because of the obvious power Jesus had - after all, no one tried to stop him from performing this outrageous act against the temple. The chief priests and teacher BEGAN to seek a way to kill Jesus, because "they feared him." These Pharisees and Herodians saw themselves as licensed by heaven to rule over God's temple and they feared losing control of the crowds to this upstart prophet. Jesus, the outsider, is usurping their power.
In fact, later on in this group, with this "faith" passage sandwiched in between, the Jewish leaders actually challenge Jesus:
"They arrived again in Jerusalem, and while Jesus was walking in the temple courts, the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders came to him. 28 “By what authority are you doing these things?” they asked. “And who gave you authority to do this?”" Mark 11:27-28
Jesus, of course, never responds directly or gives incontrovertible proof. To have the kind of faith that Jesus seeks, one has to infer on their own who has authorized Jesus to do and say what he does.
So this was the beginning of the end for Jesus, but also for the Jewish way of life. For when Jesus dies and the temple is rent in the sanctuary, that signifies that anyone who believes can come before God.
[/FONT][FONT="]The part of Mark 11 after he confronts the money changers and the Jewish leaders, deals with the fig tree he had previously cursed in Mark 11:12-14
"The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it." Mark 11:12-14
Why was the tree cursed? Because it did not bear fruit! How prophetic those words are! So many Bible verses on the importance of bearing fruit! John 15, Gal. 5:22-23 come to mind to me, without doing a search. Bearing fruit is a fundamental part of our walk with Christ!
Are these fruits works, or signs or miracles? Nope! Apparently they are some attributes of God, which he hopes to form in our hearts and lives.
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law" Gal. 5:22-23
So far, we have seen in Mark 11, before and after the passage Wanderer has posted - Jesus cursing a fig tree that has not produced fruit - on his way into Jerusalem. But if we go back to the beginning of Mark 11, we will find even more significant information about this chapter. This chapter is when Jesus went into Jerusalem to be heralded on what we call "Palm Sunday." Jesus fulfils an OT passage about the King coming into Jerusalem on a donkey, an extremely important event, because it appears in all 4 gospels.
"Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion![/FONT]
[FONT="]Shout, Daughter Jerusalem![/FONT]
[FONT="]See, your king comes to you,[/FONT]
[FONT="]righteous and victorious,[/FONT]
[FONT="]lowly and riding on a donkey,[/FONT]
[FONT="]on a colt, the foal of a donkey." Zech 9:9[/FONT]
Jesus is hailed as Messiah, "Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father David" (Mark 11:10). This is his last entry into Jerusalem before he is crucified in the days right after the Passover. This is the beginning of the the ATONEMENT. This entire chapter is talking about Jesus - his power, his authority and his coming kingdom. Praise the Lord!
Then, he curses a fruit tree, because it does not bear fruit.
Then he overturns the money changers at the temple, and cries out the words that the temple WAS a "house of prayer." The dead fig tree leads directly into the passage above.
In fact, it is significant that Jesus does not really interpret the metaphor of the dead fig tree, but instead he places emphasis on faith and prayer. By actions and by words, Jesus is pointing out that the temple is no longer the place for prayer and worship. The new order replaces the old order. The new order is based on faith in God. (11:22) that overcomes insurmountable odds (11:23) is sustained by grace (11:124) and characterized by forgiveness (11:25)
Jesus says "If anyone is able to move this mountain..." τῷ ὄρει τούτῳ. This mountain! Please note Jesus does not say "these mountains, or a mountain, or any mountain!" He is very specific! In Markan context, he is most likely referring to the temple mount, Mount Zion. Contrary to expectations, the Lord's house would not be exalted, but would be cast into the sea. In spite of the temple's immense power and holiness, it would be destroyed.
In spite of widespread belief that God's earthly address was the Holy of Holies; the temple, Jerusalem and the Holy Land would no longer be the focal point of God's presence among the people. God can no more be contained in one spot, that Jesus could be contained within the tomb. The holy place is wherever the disciples preach Jesus' gospel, and wherever his people - Jews and Gentiles gather.
That is the meaning of the mountain, not some incredible power God is giving to us, which let us face it, no one has ever seen. Not even Jesus cast a literal mountain into the sea. It is not even a metaphor or parable for a mountain being strength!
Jesus is reassuring his disciples that the effectiveness of prayer has nothing to do with the temple or sacrifices. When he dies on the cross, access to God is not closed off, but opened up for all. πάντα or panta, as noted above in post #20, is that ALL can have access to God through prayer. Praise the Lord!
This passage is not really done, unless we read 11:25,
"And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses." Mark 11:25
Relationship with God is based on faith and forgiveness. And that seems to have been chopped off of the passage posted in post #20. If one can unleash God's power by faith, and find forgiveness through prayer and a forgiving spirit, the temple cultus has been bypassed, and a house of prayer that has become a den of thieves has no more use than a fig tree. The temple, with its priesthood, sacrifices and taxes is no longer the place of God's presence, where one meets God and were sins are forgiven. By the time of Mark's writing, the temple is either besieged or already destroyed. Mark wants to convey to his readers that broken altars do not enter into the atonement with God.
This passage is not about us, or giving us some kind of "New Age" (inner being, out mind?) and some kind of hyped up "super" faith, out of a passage where Jesus was talking to his disciples about the changes his death and resurrection would bring. Not a literal mountain to be cast into the sea, but certainly an analogy with the Temple Mount, and Jesus using various metaphors and actions to say that soon, the disciples would have faith and be able to pray independent of the temple, which was finally razed in 70 AD by Titus and the Roman legions.
And really looking at the context, not just some verses that have been cobbled together to support a fly-by-night false belief. Sad how the Word Faith twists Bible verses to their own ends and doesn't teach its students to do correct hermeneutics.
[/FONT][FONT="]22 “Have faith in God,” Jesus answered. 23 “Truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. 24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.” Mark 11:21-25 NIV
First, this is a beautiful passage on faith, in context with the rest of Mark 11, it has a lot to do with introducing his disciples to a new concept of where to put their faith - not in the temple, which Jesus addresses in verses 15-18, specifically.
"On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple courts and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17 And as he taught them, he said, “Is it not written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations’ ?But you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’”[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching." Mark 11:15-18
As you can see, this is a powerful incident recalling Jesus chasing out the money changers, who has taking a "house of prayer" and turned it into a den of robbers. The Pharisees and chief priests were incredibly upset by this confrontation with Jesus - not only because it cut into their money, but I think because of the obvious power Jesus had - after all, no one tried to stop him from performing this outrageous act against the temple. The chief priests and teacher BEGAN to seek a way to kill Jesus, because "they feared him." These Pharisees and Herodians saw themselves as licensed by heaven to rule over God's temple and they feared losing control of the crowds to this upstart prophet. Jesus, the outsider, is usurping their power.
In fact, later on in this group, with this "faith" passage sandwiched in between, the Jewish leaders actually challenge Jesus:
"They arrived again in Jerusalem, and while Jesus was walking in the temple courts, the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders came to him. 28 “By what authority are you doing these things?” they asked. “And who gave you authority to do this?”" Mark 11:27-28
Jesus, of course, never responds directly or gives incontrovertible proof. To have the kind of faith that Jesus seeks, one has to infer on their own who has authorized Jesus to do and say what he does.
So this was the beginning of the end for Jesus, but also for the Jewish way of life. For when Jesus dies and the temple is rent in the sanctuary, that signifies that anyone who believes can come before God.
[/FONT][FONT="]The part of Mark 11 after he confronts the money changers and the Jewish leaders, deals with the fig tree he had previously cursed in Mark 11:12-14
"The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it." Mark 11:12-14
Why was the tree cursed? Because it did not bear fruit! How prophetic those words are! So many Bible verses on the importance of bearing fruit! John 15, Gal. 5:22-23 come to mind to me, without doing a search. Bearing fruit is a fundamental part of our walk with Christ!
Are these fruits works, or signs or miracles? Nope! Apparently they are some attributes of God, which he hopes to form in our hearts and lives.
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law" Gal. 5:22-23
So far, we have seen in Mark 11, before and after the passage Wanderer has posted - Jesus cursing a fig tree that has not produced fruit - on his way into Jerusalem. But if we go back to the beginning of Mark 11, we will find even more significant information about this chapter. This chapter is when Jesus went into Jerusalem to be heralded on what we call "Palm Sunday." Jesus fulfils an OT passage about the King coming into Jerusalem on a donkey, an extremely important event, because it appears in all 4 gospels.
"Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion![/FONT]
[FONT="]Shout, Daughter Jerusalem![/FONT]
[FONT="]See, your king comes to you,[/FONT]
[FONT="]righteous and victorious,[/FONT]
[FONT="]lowly and riding on a donkey,[/FONT]
[FONT="]on a colt, the foal of a donkey." Zech 9:9[/FONT]
Jesus is hailed as Messiah, "Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father David" (Mark 11:10). This is his last entry into Jerusalem before he is crucified in the days right after the Passover. This is the beginning of the the ATONEMENT. This entire chapter is talking about Jesus - his power, his authority and his coming kingdom. Praise the Lord!
Then, he curses a fruit tree, because it does not bear fruit.
Then he overturns the money changers at the temple, and cries out the words that the temple WAS a "house of prayer." The dead fig tree leads directly into the passage above.
In fact, it is significant that Jesus does not really interpret the metaphor of the dead fig tree, but instead he places emphasis on faith and prayer. By actions and by words, Jesus is pointing out that the temple is no longer the place for prayer and worship. The new order replaces the old order. The new order is based on faith in God. (11:22) that overcomes insurmountable odds (11:23) is sustained by grace (11:124) and characterized by forgiveness (11:25)
Jesus says "If anyone is able to move this mountain..." τῷ ὄρει τούτῳ. This mountain! Please note Jesus does not say "these mountains, or a mountain, or any mountain!" He is very specific! In Markan context, he is most likely referring to the temple mount, Mount Zion. Contrary to expectations, the Lord's house would not be exalted, but would be cast into the sea. In spite of the temple's immense power and holiness, it would be destroyed.
In spite of widespread belief that God's earthly address was the Holy of Holies; the temple, Jerusalem and the Holy Land would no longer be the focal point of God's presence among the people. God can no more be contained in one spot, that Jesus could be contained within the tomb. The holy place is wherever the disciples preach Jesus' gospel, and wherever his people - Jews and Gentiles gather.
That is the meaning of the mountain, not some incredible power God is giving to us, which let us face it, no one has ever seen. Not even Jesus cast a literal mountain into the sea. It is not even a metaphor or parable for a mountain being strength!
Jesus is reassuring his disciples that the effectiveness of prayer has nothing to do with the temple or sacrifices. When he dies on the cross, access to God is not closed off, but opened up for all. πάντα or panta, as noted above in post #20, is that ALL can have access to God through prayer. Praise the Lord!
This passage is not really done, unless we read 11:25,
"And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses." Mark 11:25
Relationship with God is based on faith and forgiveness. And that seems to have been chopped off of the passage posted in post #20. If one can unleash God's power by faith, and find forgiveness through prayer and a forgiving spirit, the temple cultus has been bypassed, and a house of prayer that has become a den of thieves has no more use than a fig tree. The temple, with its priesthood, sacrifices and taxes is no longer the place of God's presence, where one meets God and were sins are forgiven. By the time of Mark's writing, the temple is either besieged or already destroyed. Mark wants to convey to his readers that broken altars do not enter into the atonement with God.
This passage is not about us, or giving us some kind of "New Age" (inner being, out mind?) and some kind of hyped up "super" faith, out of a passage where Jesus was talking to his disciples about the changes his death and resurrection would bring. Not a literal mountain to be cast into the sea, but certainly an analogy with the Temple Mount, and Jesus using various metaphors and actions to say that soon, the disciples would have faith and be able to pray independent of the temple, which was finally razed in 70 AD by Titus and the Roman legions.
And really looking at the context, not just some verses that have been cobbled together to support a fly-by-night false belief. Sad how the Word Faith twists Bible verses to their own ends and doesn't teach its students to do correct hermeneutics.
Here are a few videos to watch, for those of you who can't follow my long posts.
John Piper
Of God Wants Me Happy Why Do I Suffer? 3:46minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwu272eeyOY
Suffering and the Sovereignty of God 45 Minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9naBgHYWTXg&t=58s
Francis Chan
Suffering is NOT Optional 46:45 Minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CFfex_mdDI
John Piper
Of God Wants Me Happy Why Do I Suffer? 3:46minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwu272eeyOY
Suffering and the Sovereignty of God 45 Minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9naBgHYWTXg&t=58s
Francis Chan
Suffering is NOT Optional 46:45 Minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CFfex_mdDI
"It is also questionable whether one can rightly argue that the Bible teaches that healing is provided for in the atonement. Historic Pentecostalism does not see healing provided for in the atonement the same way as salvation. Healing is "provided for" because the "atonement brought release from the consequences of sin;" nevertheless, since "we have not yet received the redemption of our bodies" suffering and death are still our lot until the resurrection.
"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:4-6
While there are many texts that show that our sin has been overcome by Christ's death and resurrection, there is in fact no text that that explicitly says the same thing about healing, not even Isaiah 53 and its NT citations.
Matthew's use of Isa. 53:4 does not even refer to the cross, rather the clearly sees the text being fulfilled in Jesus earthly ministry. This is made certain by both the context and by his choice of Greek verbs in his own unique translation of the Hebrew (ἔλαβεν or elaben = he took; ἐβάστασεν or ebastasen = he removed.)
"ὅπως πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Ἠσαΐου τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβεν καὶ τὰς νόσους ἐβάστασεν." Matt 8:17 Greek
"This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” Matt 8:17 ESV
The citation of Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24 on the other hand, does not refer to physical healing. The usage here is metaphorical, pure and simple! In context, in which slaves are urged to submit to their evil masters - even if it means suffering for it - Peter appeals to the example of Christ, which Christians slaves are to follow.
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV
This appeal to Christ, beginning at verse 21, is filling with allusions and to citations of Isa. 53 all of which refers to Christ's having suffered unjustly as the source of the slave's redemption from sin. Thus Peter says:
"He himself bore our wounds" (Isa. 53:12) "that we might die to sin."
"By his wounds you have been healed" (Isa. 53:5) FOR you were as sheep going astray. (Isa. 53:6)
The allusions to both verses 5 and 6, joined by FOR (coordinate Conjunction) and referring to "sheep going astray" plus the change to the past tense, all make it abundantly clear that "healing" here is a metaphor for being restored to health from "the sickness of their sins!"
Such a metaphorical use would be natural for Peter, since sin as "wound" "injury" or "sickness" and the "healing" or such "sickness" are thorough going images in the Old Testament. See 2 Chron. 7:14; Psalm 6:2; Isaiah 1:5-6; Jerem. 30:12-13, 52:8-9; Nahum 3:19)
Furthermore , the Old Testament citations in 1 Peter rather closely follow the Septuagint (LXX or Greek translation of the OT) even when this translation differed from the Hebrew; and the Septuagint had ALREADY translated Isa. 53:4 metaphorically!
"He himself bore our sins" rather than "our sicknesses." I am sure Peter knew both versions and chose the LXX because he knew it was a better version for NT believers and their understanding of Isa. 53:4.
So my point!
Matt clearly saw Isa. 53:4 as referring to physical healing, but as a part of the Messiah's ministry, not the atonement. Peter, conversely, saw the "healing" in Isa. 53 as being metaphorical and thus referring to the healing of our sin sickness. Neither NT reference to healing sees the "healing" in Isa. 53 as referring to physical healing in the atonement.
But what did Isaiah himself intend??
The first reference is certainly metaphorical as the Septuagint, the Targums and Peter recognize. Israel was diseased! She was grievously wounded for her sins (Isa 1:6-7) Yet God would restore his people. There would come one who himself would suffer so as to deliver. Isaiah says of the Messiah "The punishment that brought us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed." Since physical disease was clearly recognized as a consequence of the Fall, such a metaphor could also pick up the literal sense and that is what Matthew picked up on.
The Bible therefore does, not explicitly teach that healing is provided for in the atonement. However, the NT does see the cross as the focus of God's redemptive activity.
As far as part c above, ultimately, these rely on a wrong interpretation that healing is part of the atonement. The argument for perfect health, or healing on demand, lies in the joining of healing to the atonement as the basis for demand, and therefore if God has provided for it, he must therefore heal on demand.
Since in fact, there is no connection of the atonement to healing, God is not obligated to provide healing on demand, although I do believe he heals when people pray and it is His will to heal, that he might be glorified.
"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:4-6
While there are many texts that show that our sin has been overcome by Christ's death and resurrection, there is in fact no text that that explicitly says the same thing about healing, not even Isaiah 53 and its NT citations.
Matthew's use of Isa. 53:4 does not even refer to the cross, rather the clearly sees the text being fulfilled in Jesus earthly ministry. This is made certain by both the context and by his choice of Greek verbs in his own unique translation of the Hebrew (ἔλαβεν or elaben = he took; ἐβάστασεν or ebastasen = he removed.)
"ὅπως πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Ἠσαΐου τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβεν καὶ τὰς νόσους ἐβάστασεν." Matt 8:17 Greek
"This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” Matt 8:17 ESV
The citation of Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24 on the other hand, does not refer to physical healing. The usage here is metaphorical, pure and simple! In context, in which slaves are urged to submit to their evil masters - even if it means suffering for it - Peter appeals to the example of Christ, which Christians slaves are to follow.
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV
This appeal to Christ, beginning at verse 21, is filling with allusions and to citations of Isa. 53 all of which refers to Christ's having suffered unjustly as the source of the slave's redemption from sin. Thus Peter says:
"He himself bore our wounds" (Isa. 53:12) "that we might die to sin."
"By his wounds you have been healed" (Isa. 53:5) FOR you were as sheep going astray. (Isa. 53:6)
The allusions to both verses 5 and 6, joined by FOR (coordinate Conjunction) and referring to "sheep going astray" plus the change to the past tense, all make it abundantly clear that "healing" here is a metaphor for being restored to health from "the sickness of their sins!"
Such a metaphorical use would be natural for Peter, since sin as "wound" "injury" or "sickness" and the "healing" or such "sickness" are thorough going images in the Old Testament. See 2 Chron. 7:14; Psalm 6:2; Isaiah 1:5-6; Jerem. 30:12-13, 52:8-9; Nahum 3:19)
Furthermore , the Old Testament citations in 1 Peter rather closely follow the Septuagint (LXX or Greek translation of the OT) even when this translation differed from the Hebrew; and the Septuagint had ALREADY translated Isa. 53:4 metaphorically!
"He himself bore our sins" rather than "our sicknesses." I am sure Peter knew both versions and chose the LXX because he knew it was a better version for NT believers and their understanding of Isa. 53:4.
So my point!
Matt clearly saw Isa. 53:4 as referring to physical healing, but as a part of the Messiah's ministry, not the atonement. Peter, conversely, saw the "healing" in Isa. 53 as being metaphorical and thus referring to the healing of our sin sickness. Neither NT reference to healing sees the "healing" in Isa. 53 as referring to physical healing in the atonement.
But what did Isaiah himself intend??
The first reference is certainly metaphorical as the Septuagint, the Targums and Peter recognize. Israel was diseased! She was grievously wounded for her sins (Isa 1:6-7) Yet God would restore his people. There would come one who himself would suffer so as to deliver. Isaiah says of the Messiah "The punishment that brought us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed." Since physical disease was clearly recognized as a consequence of the Fall, such a metaphor could also pick up the literal sense and that is what Matthew picked up on.
The Bible therefore does, not explicitly teach that healing is provided for in the atonement. However, the NT does see the cross as the focus of God's redemptive activity.
As far as part c above, ultimately, these rely on a wrong interpretation that healing is part of the atonement. The argument for perfect health, or healing on demand, lies in the joining of healing to the atonement as the basis for demand, and therefore if God has provided for it, he must therefore heal on demand.
Since in fact, there is no connection of the atonement to healing, God is not obligated to provide healing on demand, although I do believe he heals when people pray and it is His will to heal, that he might be glorified.
Okay, let's take this slowly and one section of verses at a time, and interpret it.
Let's start out with Mk 11:21 - 23.
Mar 11:21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.
Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
Above we have Jesus, who cursed a fig tree and it die shortly after, and Peter brings it to Jesus' attention, as Peter obviously is impressed. So Jesus proceeds to explain to Peter just how He did it.
First Jesus said, "Have faith in God", or "Have the faith of God".
Next He says, "For verily...", which means, what I say to you now is a true statement AS IS.
"That whosoever shall say unto ____________".
The "whosoever" would be whoever has the faith of God that is written in the above verse.
"shall say unto.....", would be to speak or say [verbally with the mouth] (by word or writting): - answer, bid, bring word, call, command, grant, say (on), speak, tell.
and shall not doubt in his heart- which means zero doubt in the heart that what you said, spoke to, or commanded, shall come to pass, or end up like Peter when he started to sink after doubting.
but shall believe - this does not include hoping or wishing, nor is it in the future tense, but in the present tense, as in the now. It is a verb, which means it is an action word and requires a corresponding action to accompany what you believe in your heart, and that could be speaking verbally with your mouth or a physical action.
that those things which he saith - that would be whatever you commanded or spoke to or said.
shall come to pass - if this is a truth of God, which it is, and Jesus said that if we meat the conditions above, it shall come to pass or manifest in the natural, or shall be brought forth or come abroad. So if it failed to come to pass, then it would cease to be a truth. 1+1 = 2 is a truth so long as it continues in every case. If ever it started equaling 3, then it would cease to be a truth, so what we say HAS to come to pass.
he shall have whatsoever he saith - if you can believe and doubt not with whatever you say, speak to, or command, like it states above, then you shall definitely have whatsoever you say.
The above verses describe WOF to a tee - believe in you heart, say with your mouth, or verbally say what you believe in your heart. That is what word of faith is and that is how it works. Nothing more and nothing less. That is WOF in its most basic form.
Now if you would, I would appreciate it if you interpreted the same, and if you can, show me how I got the above verses wrong or out of context and that they are somehow not about words of faith.
Look at the context of Isa. 53:5-6 (And do not leave off verse 6, because it is important in context!) It is about SIN!! Not about healing. Even the Septuagint acknowledges that. Israel was sin sick and needed "healing!" Healing from what? Let's look at the verses again.
"But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:5-6
Let's see the main words:
transgressions
iniquities
chastisement
gone astray
turned our own way
the iniquity of us all.
These words are all about sin - rebellion, iniquity. You can't just pluck out the 5th line and claim it is about healing, when all the surrounding verses, in fact all of Isa. 53 is about sin, and the Messiah and the atonement saving us from our sins.
There there is the 1 Peter passage, which quotes it.
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV
Notice the words in the first part of the sentence have to do with the last part of the verse.
bore our sins
die to sin
live to righteousness.
So what are we healed from?? From sin and unrighteousness. There is absolutely nothing to do in context with physical healing, in either Isa. 53:5-6 or 1 Peter 2:24.
Try reading the verses for what they are saying, not the lies you have been fed by the Word Faith movement!!
In fact, if you read Isa. 53 and those verses in context, here are the verses that finish that chapter on the suffering Messiah. What are they about?
They are about salvation from sin and evil!
"Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors." Isa. 53:10-12
Read all of Isaiah 53, and realize it goes together. One part of one line, talking about healing, in the context of talking about healing of our spiritual sins, means those "wounds" are sin and death. Not my metaphor, but Isaiah's.
And if you really want to know what the word WOUND means to Isaiah, then read the whole book of Isaiah. Because the opening chapter explains this prophecy is to a "diseased" (spiritually) and unrighteous and sinful Israel.
"1 The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
2 Hear me, you heavens! Listen, earth!For the Lord has spoken:
“I reared children and brought them up,
but they have rebelled against me.
3 The ox knows its master,
the donkey its owner’s manger,
but Israel does not know,
my people do not understand.”
4 Woe to the sinful nation,
a people whose guilt is great,
a brood of evildoers,
children given to corruption!
They have forsaken the Lord;
they have spurned the Holy One of Israel
and turned their backs on him.
5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness—
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with olive oil." Isa. 1;1-6
The entire prophecy is to Israel, so that they will hear about the Messiah, who will heal their diseased and sin sick land. Note verses 1 and 3! To Judah, Jerusalem, and in verse 3 - Israel.
Do not make this prophecy about yourself, unless you take it in context.
What does God call Israel? A SINFUL NATION! He is talking about the wounds of Israel spiritually. This is Isaiah, not me, not my opinion.
Last part of verse 5 says,
"Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted."
Notice that the metaphor of an injured head - or our thoughts is intricately linked to the WHOLE HEART BEING AFFLICTED!
Why are they affected?
Because they are a people:
laden with iniquity
offspring of evil doers
children who deal corruptly
forsake the Lord
despised the Holy One of Israel
utterly estranged Verse 4
This is what context is all about!! What was Isaiah's message?
"And he said, “Go, and say to this people:“‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 Make the heart of this people dull,
and their ears heavy,
and blind their eyes;
lest they see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”
11 Then I said, “How long, O Lord?” Isa. 6:9-11
Israel would not and could not listen, but God warned them anyway. And he gave hope, in the future suffering servant, the Messiah, who would heal the "wounds" of sin sickness. That is the prophecy in Isa. 53, connected to Isaiah 1.
Why? Why did the Father have to send his Son? To physically heal us? Not there in any way, shape of form! He sent his Son to suffer and die because we were diseased from sin and evil.
"Why will you still be struck down?
Why will you continue to rebel?
The whole head is sick,
and the whole heart faint.
6 From the sole of the foot even to the head,
there is no soundness in it,
but bruises and sores
and raw wounds;
they are not pressed out or bound up
or softened with oil." Isa. 1:5-6
Those wounds in Isa. 53, are in context with words about sin and transgression. There is not a single word there about physical healing, although certainly, part of the Messiah's ministry was to heal us from our sin, and physical healing was part of Jesus earthly ministry.
Wounds - sin, iniquity, unrighteousness, evil, corruption, forsaking God, get it??
"Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin," Isa. 53:10
See - The end of Isaiah 53 makes it clear - The suffering servant makes his life an offering for SIN!
Another reason why both WoF and Hypergrace are such dangerous heresies. They take the Biblical definitions and the purpose Christ came to die and twist them beyond recognition from what the Bible says
"She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”" Matt 1:21
"But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:5-6
Let's see the main words:
transgressions
iniquities
chastisement
gone astray
turned our own way
the iniquity of us all.
These words are all about sin - rebellion, iniquity. You can't just pluck out the 5th line and claim it is about healing, when all the surrounding verses, in fact all of Isa. 53 is about sin, and the Messiah and the atonement saving us from our sins.
There there is the 1 Peter passage, which quotes it.
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV
Notice the words in the first part of the sentence have to do with the last part of the verse.
bore our sins
die to sin
live to righteousness.
So what are we healed from?? From sin and unrighteousness. There is absolutely nothing to do in context with physical healing, in either Isa. 53:5-6 or 1 Peter 2:24.
Try reading the verses for what they are saying, not the lies you have been fed by the Word Faith movement!!
In fact, if you read Isa. 53 and those verses in context, here are the verses that finish that chapter on the suffering Messiah. What are they about?
They are about salvation from sin and evil!
"Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors." Isa. 53:10-12
Read all of Isaiah 53, and realize it goes together. One part of one line, talking about healing, in the context of talking about healing of our spiritual sins, means those "wounds" are sin and death. Not my metaphor, but Isaiah's.
And if you really want to know what the word WOUND means to Isaiah, then read the whole book of Isaiah. Because the opening chapter explains this prophecy is to a "diseased" (spiritually) and unrighteous and sinful Israel.
"1 The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
2 Hear me, you heavens! Listen, earth!For the Lord has spoken:
“I reared children and brought them up,
but they have rebelled against me.
3 The ox knows its master,
the donkey its owner’s manger,
but Israel does not know,
my people do not understand.”
4 Woe to the sinful nation,
a people whose guilt is great,
a brood of evildoers,
children given to corruption!
They have forsaken the Lord;
they have spurned the Holy One of Israel
and turned their backs on him.
5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness—
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with olive oil." Isa. 1;1-6
The entire prophecy is to Israel, so that they will hear about the Messiah, who will heal their diseased and sin sick land. Note verses 1 and 3! To Judah, Jerusalem, and in verse 3 - Israel.
Do not make this prophecy about yourself, unless you take it in context.
What does God call Israel? A SINFUL NATION! He is talking about the wounds of Israel spiritually. This is Isaiah, not me, not my opinion.
Last part of verse 5 says,
"Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted."
Notice that the metaphor of an injured head - or our thoughts is intricately linked to the WHOLE HEART BEING AFFLICTED!
Why are they affected?
Because they are a people:
laden with iniquity
offspring of evil doers
children who deal corruptly
forsake the Lord
despised the Holy One of Israel
utterly estranged Verse 4
This is what context is all about!! What was Isaiah's message?
"And he said, “Go, and say to this people:“‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 Make the heart of this people dull,
and their ears heavy,
and blind their eyes;
lest they see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”
11 Then I said, “How long, O Lord?” Isa. 6:9-11
Israel would not and could not listen, but God warned them anyway. And he gave hope, in the future suffering servant, the Messiah, who would heal the "wounds" of sin sickness. That is the prophecy in Isa. 53, connected to Isaiah 1.
Why? Why did the Father have to send his Son? To physically heal us? Not there in any way, shape of form! He sent his Son to suffer and die because we were diseased from sin and evil.
"Why will you still be struck down?
Why will you continue to rebel?
The whole head is sick,
and the whole heart faint.
6 From the sole of the foot even to the head,
there is no soundness in it,
but bruises and sores
and raw wounds;
they are not pressed out or bound up
or softened with oil." Isa. 1:5-6
Those wounds in Isa. 53, are in context with words about sin and transgression. There is not a single word there about physical healing, although certainly, part of the Messiah's ministry was to heal us from our sin, and physical healing was part of Jesus earthly ministry.
Wounds - sin, iniquity, unrighteousness, evil, corruption, forsaking God, get it??
"Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin," Isa. 53:10
See - The end of Isaiah 53 makes it clear - The suffering servant makes his life an offering for SIN!
Another reason why both WoF and Hypergrace are such dangerous heresies. They take the Biblical definitions and the purpose Christ came to die and twist them beyond recognition from what the Bible says
"She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”" Matt 1:21
Today my prayers are much different than they used to be. It's much different to pray from a place of victory in Christ than to try to pray "for" a place of victory in Christ. I thank God for what He has already done in Christ for me and to me.
Whether it be for wisdom or healing or help in any area of my daily life. I realize that believing His promises are my portion. Here is part of a post from ETR that I agree with for the most part.
Much more to this but it has taken time to learn about what it means to renew my mind., change my old way of thinking by being in agreement with God's way of thinking. This is done by first "repenting" (change of mind) reading His Word and trusting what the Holy Spirit reveals above what my old way of thinking is saying. This is all done by grace through faith. And continues for the rest of our lives here on earth.
The biggest battle is entering into His rest when the world...flesh and devil are showing otherwise. We have been given a gift.. There IS A REST FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD. Hebrews.4:9-10
Don’t talk to God about your mountain; talk to your mountain about God! Okay, so what do you say? How do you talk to a mountain? Well you could talk about your mighty King whose name is above every name (Ph 2:9). Your mountain has a name. Cancer has a name. Depression has a name. God has commanded that all these things must bow to the name of Jesus (Ph 2:10). Wommack suggests you could pray like this:
“Father, thank You that Your name is above every name… These things the doctor told me are in my body have names. You are above them all! Thank You that You are greater, stronger, and more powerful than all of this.” (pp.33-34)
Notice how we have begun by focusing on our mighty Father and not the problem. In small groups there is a temptation to gather around our problems, but in that way lies death. We are to gather around the name of Jesus. Sometimes this is not easy! When we’ve heard bad news there is often a battle between fear and faith. We have to strive to enter His rest. Fear will get you speaking worry and negativity turning your prayers into words of death. “What he says will happen,” said Jesus. So watch your words and take care where you put your faith.
The best thing to do with your anxieties is cast them on the Lord (Ps 55:22). Fortify your mind by declaring God’s promises to yourself. When I’m battling with a bad report my two favorite words are, “Surely He…” (Is 53:4). He surely did! Praise Him for it. Then when faith has risen in your heart, you are ready to deal with the problem:
“Father, this is so small in comparison to what You’re able to do. I shouldn’t even have to ask, but the doctor did say I’m going to die. So since Jesus has already provided my healing, I’ll just receive it!” (p.34)
Traditional: Faith moves God.
Biblical: Faith moves mountains.
God has supplied everything you need by grace (Eph 1:3). Faith doesn’t move God to do what He’s already done; faith moves mountains. Praise the Lord for carrying all your infirmities on the cross and then command your mountain to bow to Jesus. Jesus said all authority on heaven and earth had been given to Him (Mt 28:18).
He has jurisdiction everywhere and there is no place your mountain can hide from His authority. The problem you are confronting may be the result of a generational problems, bad DNA, bad behavior or whatever. It doesn’t matter. Jesus is Lord. Period. When we pray in Jesus’ name, we are re-presenting His cross-wrought victory and His irresistible authority:
“I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.” (Lk 10:19)
Have faith in God and speak to your mountain! “Rebuke with all authority” (Tit 2:15) and send it into the sea.
Whether it be for wisdom or healing or help in any area of my daily life. I realize that believing His promises are my portion. Here is part of a post from ETR that I agree with for the most part.
Much more to this but it has taken time to learn about what it means to renew my mind., change my old way of thinking by being in agreement with God's way of thinking. This is done by first "repenting" (change of mind) reading His Word and trusting what the Holy Spirit reveals above what my old way of thinking is saying. This is all done by grace through faith. And continues for the rest of our lives here on earth.
The biggest battle is entering into His rest when the world...flesh and devil are showing otherwise. We have been given a gift.. There IS A REST FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD. Hebrews.4:9-10
Don’t talk to God about your mountain; talk to your mountain about God! Okay, so what do you say? How do you talk to a mountain? Well you could talk about your mighty King whose name is above every name (Ph 2:9). Your mountain has a name. Cancer has a name. Depression has a name. God has commanded that all these things must bow to the name of Jesus (Ph 2:10). Wommack suggests you could pray like this:
“Father, thank You that Your name is above every name… These things the doctor told me are in my body have names. You are above them all! Thank You that You are greater, stronger, and more powerful than all of this.” (pp.33-34)
Notice how we have begun by focusing on our mighty Father and not the problem. In small groups there is a temptation to gather around our problems, but in that way lies death. We are to gather around the name of Jesus. Sometimes this is not easy! When we’ve heard bad news there is often a battle between fear and faith. We have to strive to enter His rest. Fear will get you speaking worry and negativity turning your prayers into words of death. “What he says will happen,” said Jesus. So watch your words and take care where you put your faith.
The best thing to do with your anxieties is cast them on the Lord (Ps 55:22). Fortify your mind by declaring God’s promises to yourself. When I’m battling with a bad report my two favorite words are, “Surely He…” (Is 53:4). He surely did! Praise Him for it. Then when faith has risen in your heart, you are ready to deal with the problem:
“Father, this is so small in comparison to what You’re able to do. I shouldn’t even have to ask, but the doctor did say I’m going to die. So since Jesus has already provided my healing, I’ll just receive it!” (p.34)
Traditional: Faith moves God.Biblical: Faith moves mountains.
God has supplied everything you need by grace (Eph 1:3). Faith doesn’t move God to do what He’s already done; faith moves mountains. Praise the Lord for carrying all your infirmities on the cross and then command your mountain to bow to Jesus. Jesus said all authority on heaven and earth had been given to Him (Mt 28:18).
He has jurisdiction everywhere and there is no place your mountain can hide from His authority. The problem you are confronting may be the result of a generational problems, bad DNA, bad behavior or whatever. It doesn’t matter. Jesus is Lord. Period. When we pray in Jesus’ name, we are re-presenting His cross-wrought victory and His irresistible authority:
“I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.” (Lk 10:19)
Have faith in God and speak to your mountain! “Rebuke with all authority” (Tit 2:15) and send it into the sea.
You are off because Jesus is talking about praying to God, asking God, having faith in God. Your faith is supposed to be in God moving the mountain. That implies that maybe God doesn't want a certain mountain moved. Here read the context. This translation shows a clearer picture of what the Greek says:
Then Jesus said to the disciples, “Have faith in God. I tell you the truth, you can say to this mountain, ‘May you be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and it will happen. But you must really believe it will happen and have no doubt in your heart. I tell you, you can pray for anything, and if you believe that you’ve received it, it will be yours. But when you are praying, first forgive anyone you are holding a grudge against, so that your Father in heaven will forgive your sins, too. ”
Mark 11:22*-25 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/mrk.11.22-25.NLT
You know I admire the kind of faith to ask for something and to have the faith of iron to know you received it. in this manner I applaud the wof believers however it is also true that you can have all the faith in the world but some mountains are not to be moved at that time or sometimes at all.
I have chains that I know I cannot break right now, only Jesus holds the key to unlock them. I cannot command these chains to break and cannot ask for them to be broken and have the iron faith to see happen that simply is not how it works for me.
But as I have said to god many times these chains will not have power over me forever, one day they will be broken and though right now they may be my greatest weaknesses they will one day become my greatest strength and I will testify on that day the good that comes to those who believer and wait on the Lord.
Now I don't believe they will be broken I know it, how do I know it? Because while I may not have the iron faith to command these chains to break or to ask and have them shattered I do have iron faith in him. For me I don't view faith as a currency, it isn't a matter if I have enough of it or if it's strong enough I give him my faith in his ability and in him and then hand the situation to him nothing more nothing less. This is how he and I work and if he works through others by wof then praise God! But we all must remember that just as we are unique and different he uses us and works in us and through us differently.
I have chains that I know I cannot break right now, only Jesus holds the key to unlock them. I cannot command these chains to break and cannot ask for them to be broken and have the iron faith to see happen that simply is not how it works for me.
But as I have said to god many times these chains will not have power over me forever, one day they will be broken and though right now they may be my greatest weaknesses they will one day become my greatest strength and I will testify on that day the good that comes to those who believer and wait on the Lord.
Now I don't believe they will be broken I know it, how do I know it? Because while I may not have the iron faith to command these chains to break or to ask and have them shattered I do have iron faith in him. For me I don't view faith as a currency, it isn't a matter if I have enough of it or if it's strong enough I give him my faith in his ability and in him and then hand the situation to him nothing more nothing less. This is how he and I work and if he works through others by wof then praise God! But we all must remember that just as we are unique and different he uses us and works in us and through us differently.
If people are getting results by WOF methods for greedy or coveteous reasons, it isn't God that's doing it.
Yes and the same is said of anyone who asks God for something and receives it
If their faith is in Jesus Christ then the Lord will not answer those prayers. But if they are praying to a different "God" then that is when demonic forces come into play.
That isn't how prayer works. The enemy doesn't reward people for prayer to God, even if say a wof believer claims blessings in abundance they are doing so to god maybe some try to do it by their own merit but it's still to God.