Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

you have never once posted a scripture that points to a born again Christian

someone God has started in

losing salvation


you use a bunch of your own words

out of context scriptures

and push a false doctrine


thing is when you lie
and twist what people believe on purpose so often

its obviously not to fool anyone

its just to get reactions....


this is fun for you?

He/she is gonna set us straight....not likely anytime soon

 

[Shamah]

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. – Romans 10:4

I mean, how obvious can you get? There's an apparently supernatural veil that's hindering people from seeing this.

telos is not end it is goal;

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:3, "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]For not knowing the righteousness of Yah, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of Yah[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]."

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]This is a much misunderstood passage[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], for it would be sticking up forthe pharisees who made their own law [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]if misunderstood, it was exposing those who would not submit to Yah but again made the[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]i[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]r own “way”[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

Mat 15:2-3, "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. But He answered, and said to them; And [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]?"[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:3-4, "For not knowing the righteousness of Yah, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of Yah. For Messiah is the goal of the ‘Torah unto righteousness’ to everyone who believes."

For not knowing the righteousness of Yah, and seeking to establish their own righteousness;[/FONT]​

​

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them; And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"[/FONT]​

​

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]We can not earn Salvation by only obedience to the Law of the Creator, as James said and as Yahshua Himself said it takes faith and works. Romans 10:4 is a verses mistranslated in the majority of Bibles thus blurring the lines of truth. Christ is not “the end of the Law” but rather Yahshua showed the intent, ultimate result or goal (telos) of keeping the Law of YHWH.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The word translated “end” is word#G5056, τέλος, telos, tel'-os[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid):—+ continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Lets look at places this word is used in the Konie Greek originals to get an idea of it meaning and context;[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Peter 1:9, "Receiving the ultimate result (telos) of your faith – the salvation of your souls."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If the its the end of the Law aka Law is done away or at an end in Romans 10:4 then faith must also be done away or at an end in 1 Peter 1:9. Unless of course “telos” means the goal.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #G5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 5:11, “Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 5:11, “See, we call those blessed who endure. You have heard of the endurance of Iyoḇ and saw the purpose (telos) of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif], that He is very sympathetic and compassionate.”[/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end (telos) of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the goal (telos) of this command is love from a clean heart, from a good conscience and a sincere belief.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 6:22, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end (telos) everlasting life.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 6:22, “But now, having been set free from sin, and having become servants of Yah, you have your fruit resulting in set-apartness, and the goal (telos); everlasting life.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The word is used in the sense of the end result, the goal, the outcome, not in the sense of the obliteration of the Law…[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5-7, " But the goal* of our instruction/command is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*goal is word #G5056 télos - Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.[/FONT]

 

[dcontroversal]

Are you offended, Ralph?

Being easily offended is a sign of spiritul immaturity......

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 13:14-15, “And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is completely filled, which says, ‘Hearing you shall hear and by no means understand, and seeing you shall see and by no means perceive, for the heart of this people has become thickened, and their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their heart, and turn back, and I heal them.” (Isa 6:9-10)[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Malachi 2:17, “You have wearied יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]with your words, and you have said, “In what way have we wearied Him?” In that you say, “Everyone who does evil is good in the eyes of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה, and He is delighting in them,” or, “Where is the Master of right-ruling?”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Exodus 23:7, “Keep yourself far from a false matter, and do not kill the innocent and the righteous, for I do not declare the wrong right.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 11:27-30, "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father. And no one fully knows the Son except the Father, neither does anyone fully know the Father, except the Son and those whom YHWH wills the Son to reveal. Come to Me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Jeremiah 6:16-17, “Thus said יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif], “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; and find rest for yourselves[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].” But they said, ‘We do not walk in it.’ “And I raised up watchmen over you, and said, ‘Listen to a voice of the trumpet!’ But they said, ‘We do not listen.’[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[dcontroversal]

im not accusing of anything. I completed the scripture Decon ignored and posted why Jesus rejected them. He said He rejected them for practicing disobedience to God. They had a religion, they taught in Christ’s name, they gave Jesus the credit for everything they did and Jesus still rejected them because He said they ignored God’s instruction. What do you not understand

Like John Wick....you have done nothing and have proved nothing other than you miss the fact that they were not saved, never have been saved and were obviously a working for religionist which practiced Cainology......similar to what you and a few others espouse!

 

[Shamah]

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ezekiel 36:26-28, "A new heart, will I also give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments, and do them. And you will dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and you will be My people, and I will be your Father."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Jeremiah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”[/FONT]

 

[dcontroversal]

In all due respect this statement is just not true given what Jesus said. People can "Come in His Name", they can preach "in His Name" they can do many wonderful works "In His Name", they can build great religions, churches, doctrines, they can feed random poor people, send missions to further their man made doctrines and traditions, they can claim to serve God, all in His Name. They can "practice iniquity" while doing all these things, all in Jesus name and He doesn't even know them.

How can you make such a statement given what Jesus just said in this chapter?

Because they are NOT SAVED BECAUSE THEY HAVE PLACED THEIR TRUST AND FAITH INTO A GOSPEL WITH NO POWER.....read Galatians <-faith plus works to gain or finish salvation = a false gospel with no power to save and ALL WHO PREACH IT ARE DOUBLE CURSED!

 

[dcontroversal]

But the point is these people were convinced that He Did. Someone had convinced them that they could create their own religious practices and reject God's Instructions and still be "Saved".


How are they different than a religion that creates their own Sabbaths, while rejecting God's, their own High Days and Feasts unto the Lord, while Rejecting God's, create their own images of God in the likeness of some long haired Playgirl centerfold, I could go on and on.

How do you square these "Christian" traditions in the light of what Jesus taught in Matt. 7?

As are ALL Christian religions that push works or embellish salvation with works FOR OR TO KEEP!! They all think they know Jesus and THEIR WORKS WILL GET THEM THERE OR KEEP THEM THERE!

 

[dcontroversal]

I see the Pharisee/lawyer is still pushing an impossible law keeping working for dogma....geesh

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 1:8-10, “If we say that we have no sin, we are misleading ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is trustworthy and righteous to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 2:1-2, “My little children, I write this to you, so that you do not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Intercessor with the Father, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah, a righteous One. And He Himself is an atoning offering for our sins, and not for ours only but also for all the world.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

 

[stonesoffire]

you have never once posted a scripture that points to a born again Christian

someone God has started in

losing salvation


you use a bunch of your own words

out of context scriptures

and push a false doctrine


thing is when you lie
and twist what people believe on purpose so often

its obviously not to fool anyone

its just to get reactions....


this is fun for you?

I think this is true.

 

[Seohce]

Could you explain how and what you hear Seohce?

Romans 10:8-18 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? AND HOW CAN THEY HEAR WITHOUT SOMEONE PREACHING TO THEM? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and THE MESSAGE IS HEARD THROUGH THE WORD OF CHRIST. But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”

Luke 10:16 “He who listens to you LISTENS TO ME; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Hebrews 4:12-13 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Ephesians 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ WHEN YOU HEARD THE WORD OF TRUTH, THE GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; HE WILL SPEAK only what he hears, and HE WILL TELL YOU what is yet to come.

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

John 12:47-48 “As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

John 14:15-24 Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit “If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me

1 Thessalonians 2:13 And we also thank God continually because, WHEN YOU RECEIVED THE WORD OF GOD, which you HEARD FROM US, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is AT WORK IN YOU WHO BELIEVE.




Romans 3:3-4 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

 

[Ralph-]

Just pointing out something here studyman. Notice your word strive? That's trying to do in your own power.

"Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love."-2 Peter 1:5

Your 'it just happens, and if it doesn't happen, it does't matter because salvation is not by works and once you are saved you are always saved' theology is not Biblical. Peter is not teaching a works gospel. But when we say what Peter says it's suddenly a works gospel.

 

[preacher4truth]

"Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence,

...and with your well known lifestyle of fibbing on here you have a strike one above. Looks like you need to start all over. Or something.

 

[Ralph-]

once you are born of God

you have already overcome the world....

We know if that really happened by if we then bear fruit. No progress in bearing fruit means you're still the unsaved, unconverted, lost person you were before. Stay that way and you'll be rejected when Jesus comes back.

 

[Ralph-]

Are you offended, Ralph?

No.

I was pointing out the offense that comes out of people in this thread when you start talking about the necessity to obey.

It's like telling a 2 pack a day smoker they should stop smoking or they're going to die. Anyone who's done that knows what I'm talking about. You get the same response here when you say people need to believe God and have the works that prove you believe God or else you'll be rejected when Jesus comes back.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

We know if that really happened by if we then bear fruit.

all new creatures should have assurance
and have confidence
you are saved, you are His sheep and that will never change
but still examine yourself in order to see if they walk according to the spirit or the flesh
CONSTANTLY

but not in order to save yourself.. Jesus already did that

instead... in order to be a shining light out of love for who loved us first


if you are not a new creature
then you need to turn to Jesus with that

because its Him who provides growth


if anyone is pushing its up to your performance to be saved
youre twisting the scripture
and trying to be judged by YOUR righteousness not His

 

[Ralph-]

...and with your well known lifestyle of fibbing on here you have a strike one above. Looks like you need to start all over. Or something.

You are the one who has fallen woefully short on that point. I'm keeping my cool. Even the video Locutus posted confirmed that you are the loud mouth, in your face, angry one here.

Your baseless accusations mean nothing except more reward for me for sharing he gospel. What gets me is you are a preacher. That's the scariest saddest part of all of this. If you were just a baby in the Lord I'd understand more, but you are supposed to be an example to the flock. If I visited a church and you conducted yourself like this I'd be out the door and past your ushers instantly.

Please, put me on ignore if you are that offended by what I say. Really, put me on ignore. I get more done here that way.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

all new creatures should have assurance
and have confidence
you are saved, you are His sheep and that will never change
but still examine yourself in order to see if they walk according to the spirit or the flesh
CONSTANTLY

but not in order to save yourself.. Jesus already did that

instead... in order to be a shining light out of love for who loved us first


if you are not a new creature
then you need to turn to Jesus with that

because its Him who provides growth


if anyone is pushing its up to your performance to be saved
youre twisting the scripture
and trying to be judged by YOUR righteousness not His

Amen, He who begun a good work in you WILL COMPLETE it. It does not say MIGHT complete it,

 

[Ralph-]

all new creatures should have assurance
and have confidence
you are saved, you are His sheep and that will never change
but still examine yourself in order to see if they walk according to the spirit or the flesh
CONSTANTLY

but not in order to save yourself.. Jesus already did that

instead... in order to be a shining light out of love for who loved us first


if you are not a new creature
then you need to turn to Jesus with that

because its Him who provides growth

This is what I've been saying, but you and others can't hear it for some reason.

if anyone is pushing its up to your performance to be saved
youre twisting the scripture
and trying to be judged by YOUR righteousness not His

No, I posted the passage that describes where Jesus himself will be reviewing our 'performance', as you put it. All we need to do is not quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19) and obey God when the impulse to obey rises up in us. We don't need to boast about that. He'll do all the boasting for us when He comes back. That's right in the Bible. I've been showing you all this. But you keep hearing it as 'do works in your own strength so you'll earn your own salvation now and when Jesus comes back'.