Not By Works
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R
No, he taught justification by faith 'apart from works'.
James taught salvation is not by 'faith alone'.
In context you can see these are two different arguments. But the church has melded them into one doctrine.........one enormously contradictory doctrine.
The 'faith alone' argument is James' point not Paul's and means what it says he says it means. 'Apart from works' is Paul's argument and is addressing a different point about salvation. In context, 'faith alone' and 'apart from works' are not one and the same argument. You have to be careful to use 'faith alone' when talking about James' particular point, and use 'apart from works' when talking about the different point that Paul is making so we'll know which point about works and salvation your're addressing.
James taught salvation is not by 'faith alone'.
In context you can see these are two different arguments. But the church has melded them into one doctrine.........one enormously contradictory doctrine.
The 'faith alone' argument is James' point not Paul's and means what it says he says it means. 'Apart from works' is Paul's argument and is addressing a different point about salvation. In context, 'faith alone' and 'apart from works' are not one and the same argument. You have to be careful to use 'faith alone' when talking about James' particular point, and use 'apart from works' when talking about the different point that Paul is making so we'll know which point about works and salvation your're addressing.
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Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Yeknow not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
believest thou?
Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Yeknow not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
believest thou?
R
What does it matter if once saved always saved is true or not if you have no works when Jesus comes back?
Answer...
Calvinist: You are not saved and you never were to begin with.
Arminian: You are not saved and you either never were to begin with, or you lost it along the way.
Freegrace: You are saved just as long as you believed. Grace is a license for you to remain living in sin and you still be saved. (just informational, not trying to start a discussion about it).
See? Only the last group believes you do not have to have works to be saved. But we will not discuss that group. We will discuss the fact that there is zero difference between Calvinist once saved always saved doctrine and Arminian not once saved always saved doctrine when it comes to the matter of whether or not works are required to be saved when Jesus comes back, works being the evidence of salvation. This is not a point of contention, except for the last group, but for some reason this thread has to go on and on and on about what we agree on.
Answer...
Calvinist: You are not saved and you never were to begin with.
Arminian: You are not saved and you either never were to begin with, or you lost it along the way.
Freegrace: You are saved just as long as you believed. Grace is a license for you to remain living in sin and you still be saved. (just informational, not trying to start a discussion about it).
See? Only the last group believes you do not have to have works to be saved. But we will not discuss that group. We will discuss the fact that there is zero difference between Calvinist once saved always saved doctrine and Arminian not once saved always saved doctrine when it comes to the matter of whether or not works are required to be saved when Jesus comes back, works being the evidence of salvation. This is not a point of contention, except for the last group, but for some reason this thread has to go on and on and on about what we agree on.
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JOHN 8; 36; If the Son sets you free,you will be free indeed. Do being set free mean being saved. I think the problem is that some believers don't know if they are saved or not. To be free is to be exempt from being lost. like everyone has to pay taxes, but some are exempt from paying them. Only Jesus can hold to that claim of setting you free,because only he can. ,and if he says so, then we are free if we believe. No one can tell you that you are not saved but Jesus,and only by faith do we believe him.., and nobody else.
Yes, Abraham learned by his mistakes as did all those God considered Righteous. That's what children do, they learn by their mistakes, they learn from falling. It's part of life. But you ignore God's Words regarding Abraham.
Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Abraham was considered righteous "BECAUSE" he followed God's Instructions, not because he rejected them as Uzzah did. You accuse Abraham of "many" sins after he turned to God in obedience. God, however, does not condemn him. But Cain God did condemn, Ham, God did condemn, Uzzah God did condemn. Like DJ said, it was because Abraham and Rehab trusted God enough to listen and follow His instructions that they were considered different than Uzzah and Ham who did not. Like Jesus said:
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
No one is saying they can forgive their own sins EG. I don't know why you keep implying this. But there is a difference between the "works" of Abraham and Rehab, and the "works" of Ham and Uzzah. And the difference is discerned by their choices, their "works". One trusted God enough to listen and follow His instructions, and one didn't. How can you deny this?
Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Abraham was considered righteous "BECAUSE" he followed God's Instructions, not because he rejected them as Uzzah did. You accuse Abraham of "many" sins after he turned to God in obedience. God, however, does not condemn him. But Cain God did condemn, Ham, God did condemn, Uzzah God did condemn. Like DJ said, it was because Abraham and Rehab trusted God enough to listen and follow His instructions that they were considered different than Uzzah and Ham who did not. Like Jesus said:
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
No one is saying they can forgive their own sins EG. I don't know why you keep implying this. But there is a difference between the "works" of Abraham and Rehab, and the "works" of Ham and Uzzah. And the difference is discerned by their choices, their "works". One trusted God enough to listen and follow His instructions, and one didn't. How can you deny this?
So His words are not the "my words" He is talking about?
You are overspiritualizing...and ignoring what is CLERALY written.
I had a longer reply typed ddos attack erased it.
None could ever be reconciled to YHWH if it were not from Yahshua's work as the Passover Sacrifice, after we have recieved and accepted that we are to do His will;
1 John/Yahanan 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”
John/Yahanan 15:5-16, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you.”
when you said is my "news good news" were you implyingf that saying obebience to Him is not "good" and only claiming Him is "good"?
You are overspiritualizing...and ignoring what is CLERALY written.
I had a longer reply typed ddos attack erased it.
None could ever be reconciled to YHWH if it were not from Yahshua's work as the Passover Sacrifice, after we have recieved and accepted that we are to do His will;
1 John/Yahanan 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”
John/Yahanan 15:5-16, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you.”
when you said is my "news good news" were you implyingf that saying obebience to Him is not "good" and only claiming Him is "good"?
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 8:31, "...If you continue in My doctrine, then you are truly My disciples."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 4:17, “From that time [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]began to proclaim and to say, “Repent, for the reign of the heavens has drawn near.”
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 4:17, “From that time [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]began to proclaim and to say, “Repent, for the reign of the heavens has drawn near.”
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."[/FONT]
How does this have ANYTHING to do with saying He should or should not be obeyed? Also how is it by relying and trusting His words are true, including those that say to obey Him "not trusting Him"?
Mat 7:24-27, “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them, shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”
Mat 7:24-27, “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them, shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”
Be born again. I obeyed. Be filled with His Spirit. I obeyed. Abide in Him. Thank God for the greater revelation of what abiding means. Am sticking to Him like glue. 
When He speaks, step out and do. Over spiritualizing? Be led of His Spirit. Sheep, which we really are no longer though I will not argue this now, hear His Voice. His body does more than just follow. We are one with Him. How else can we be except by Spirit?
The written Word is good. Coupled with His Spirit is better.
When He speaks, step out and do. Over spiritualizing? Be led of His Spirit. Sheep, which we really are no longer though I will not argue this now, hear His Voice. His body does more than just follow. We are one with Him. How else can we be except by Spirit?
The written Word is good. Coupled with His Spirit is better.
Be born again. I obeyed. Be filled with His Spirit. I obeyed. Abide in Him. Thank God for the greater revelation of what abiding means. Am sticking to Him like glue.
When He speaks, step out and do. Over spiritualizing? Be led of His Spirit. Sheep, which we really are no longer though I will not argue this now, hear His Voice. His body does more than just follow. We are one with Him. How else can we be except by Spirit?
The written Word is good. Coupled with His Spirit is better.
When He speaks, step out and do. Over spiritualizing? Be led of His Spirit. Sheep, which we really are no longer though I will not argue this now, hear His Voice. His body does more than just follow. We are one with Him. How else can we be except by Spirit?
The written Word is good. Coupled with His Spirit is better.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:26, “But the Comforter; the Holy Spirit which YHWH will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Yahshua/Jesus) have said to you.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 6:63, “It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (Instructions) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting.”
IF the "spirit" is saying something other than what is written, it is not His Spirit.
[/FONT]
E
So you do not believe that baptism is required for salvation? Since when?
Two different subjects but circumcision was required and not an option. Would you tell Moses not to circumcise his sons?[/quote]
So why did paul say if your gonna be circumcised your indebted to the whole law? Why did paul sayif you add circumcision, your teaching a different gospel?
No. they are not different subjects, they are both commands of God.
Then we are not saved by grace, but by works.
I already did, you could not figure out by what I said?
Two different subjects but circumcision was required and not an option. Would you tell Moses not to circumcise his sons?[/quote]
So why did paul say if your gonna be circumcised your indebted to the whole law? Why did paul sayif you add circumcision, your teaching a different gospel?
No. they are not different subjects, they are both commands of God.
Then we are not saved by grace, but by works.
I already did, you could not figure out by what I said?